Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics

teksimple · 27th August 2008, 08:34

From what I have observed, the Vision electronics seem sufficient for people who dive on holiday. Plenty of time to send it in for service. If you dive 50-100+ times a year, its a no-brainer as to which is more reliable.

scubanimal · 27th August 2008, 21:29

I own and dive both regularly. There are pros and cons to both. My vision system has not failed me yet, the HH has now several times. (missed a week of diving) However, Kevin (HH) is far superior in service in all aspects. I've had my HH controller fail twice while diving and once my buddies failed. Not critical as I fly manually most of the time, but annoying. I prefer the controls though on my HH, but prefer the display on my vision. The Diva is definitely much better then the fiberoptic lights of the vision. Personally I'm fine with the single handset, others clearly are not. I really like the download of the vision (only way to tell if you're manual flying is any good). the HH does not have that.

As mentioned above I would really look at the type of diving you're planning on doing, it may help you decide. In the end you'll probably be happy with either. Besides you'll probably sell what ever you get in a few years to upgrade to the next generation anyway, so cost may drive it in the end.

MarkZ · 28th August 2008, 03:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Mark,
I teach and own multiple rebreathers, so my comments are based on my preference.. I couldn't care less if a person purchased a rEvo, HH or inspiration if it was right for their diving.

When I do rebreather demos, I always bring the above rigs and some others that I don't teach.. Everyone has a favorite and thats what they will suggest first and thats what I do.. In the next 2 months I have several rEvos that I have sold and have to train people on.. For them it was the right choice.. I also sell KISS rebreathers and still do some training on Inspirations.. I'dsay thats pretty neutral and not locked into one commercial interest..

I like the Explorer for its profiles but frankly the 15 second logging doesnt cut it.. The cochran logs every second.. mine has 1450 hours of logging.. and if I needed it I have another computer.. Its the best for the job so I use it..

DIves like the doria, arent really expedition level dives in my book.. Typical run times are less than 90 minutes.. The britanic dives are more in what I consider expedition level.. I do alot of dives with 4+ hour run times, in that case I want a system I can stay on the loop under anything but a failure of loop integrerity.

Just because dives were done on it doesnt mean it was suitable.. People have done dives on the doria with a SINGLE 72... Does that mean it was safe or smart.

I have a specific confort level in my equiptment that I want.. I have that level with teh classic electronics, I dont have that with the vision..

Joe,

Let me begin by telling you that I do not have a specific problem with you. Quite the contrary I know several students you have trained and they came away from the course as well trained safe divers. That being said I think the key phrase to your response is that you don't have a specific level of comfort with the Vision. Nothing wrong with that but the question that begs to be asked is it the unit or a personal perference? I think to be honest with ourselves it is the latter.

You like the explorer even though vast numbers of users have had a laundry list of problems with them. I don't have recent experience with Cochrans but a few years back they were laughable as far as reliability. I seem to remember a nickname of the hammer as a number of users were seen banging them against the sides of boats in attempts to get them to work. Hopefully that has changed but again that comes down to personal perference.

As far as the expeditions are concerned again I believe that it is more a personal level of comfort thing. You mention that for 4 hour dives you would rather be on a HH then a vision but standing back is it really the safest choice? For a start just the battery issue comes to mind. Again my personal experience with HH's is limited to a few hours diving them myself and observation of a number of others that have them. I would not think myself bold to suggest that the Vision has a documentated far greater length of service between battery changes then the HH. If there is one knock on the HH it is the fact that they eat batteries like kids eat ice cream. From a neutral position which would be a better unit for an expedition one that has a 3 or 4 hour battery life or one that has 20 or 30? I also do not see any real difference in field serviceablity between a HH and a Vision. If the electronics fail they both have to go back to the factory, everything else can be field repaired. As far as repairs they both seem to take about the same amount of time for similar service and differences come into play with shipping times. If in the states JM is faster and if on the other side of the pond AP is faster.

I completely agree with your admiration of the classic and hesitation to part with it. I was pretty much in the same boat. I have had conversations of great length with a number of people before I decided to make the switch. Not only did I talk with SDS but also some training agencies. All that being said I am still not entirely sure I have a complete level of comfort with the single handset even though I have been assured that coupled with another dive computer there are a number of redundancies. I am pretty much convinced that the mental block is of my own making rather then of any factual basis. I don't really like the new V-rods either and like the old school bikes better also. Again that is just me. Either way you are still not going to get me to type into my telephone.

Mark

***jradomski*** · 28th August 2008, 04:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by MarkZ)

Joe,

Let me begin by telling you that I do not have a specific problem with you. Quite the contrary I know several students you have trained and they came away from the course as well trained safe divers. That being said I think the key phrase to your response is that you don't have a specific level of comfort with the Vision. Nothing wrong with that but the question that begs to be asked is it the unit or a personal perference? I think to be honest with ourselves it is the latter.

You like the explorer even though vast numbers of users have had a laundry list of problems with them. I don't have recent experience with Cochrans but a few years back they were laughable as far as reliability. I seem to remember a nickname of the hammer as a number of users were seen banging them against the sides of boats in attempts to get them to work. Hopefully that has changed but again that comes down to personal perference.

As far as the expeditions are concerned again I believe that it is more a personal level of comfort thing. You mention that for 4 hour dives you would rather be on a HH then a vision but standing back is it really the safest choice? For a start just the battery issue comes to mind. Again my personal experience with HH's is limited to a few hours diving them myself and observation of a number of others that have them. I would not think myself bold to suggest that the Vision has a documentated far greater length of service between battery changes then the HH. If there is one knock on the HH it is the fact that they eat batteries like kids eat ice cream. From a neutral position which would be a better unit for an expedition one that has a 3 or 4 hour battery life or one that has 20 or 30? I also do not see any real difference in field serviceablity between a HH and a Vision. If the electronics fail they both have to go back to the factory, everything else can be field repaired. As far as repairs they both seem to take about the same amount of time for similar service and differences come into play with shipping times. If in the states JM is faster and if on the other side of the pond AP is faster.

I completely agree with your admiration of the classic and hesitation to part with it. I was pretty much in the same boat. I have had conversations of great length with a number of people before I decided to make the switch. Not only did I talk with SDS but also some training agencies. All that being said I am still not entirely sure I have a complete level of comfort with the single handset even though I have been assured that coupled with another dive computer there are a number of redundancies. I am pretty much convinced that the mental block is of my own making rather then of any factual basis. I don't really like the new V-rods either and like the old school bikes better also. Again that is just me. Either way you are still not going to get me to type into my telephone.

Mark

Mark,
Yes for long dives I definately prefer the HH.. I have NEVER had ANY battry issues.. For BS dives I might use aa alkalines, but never for serious stuff.. 99% of the time I use saft ls14500, and I usually get 30 to 40 hours of dive time per battery (this is the average I see over the 5+ years I have been using a HH - and there is usually life left but I dont push it).. On this current set I have right now 45 hours on the primary (the secondary was replaced at 36 - I probably have nearly 100% manual control on this set) Thats pretty damn good.. Someone who doesn't do any manual control can expect at least 20 hours on a battery life.. In cold water I will only use alkalines if thats my only choice and make sure I change the cell after every dive.

And its not the the HH eats batteries its the chemistry. If someone chooses to use alkaline batteries in cold water they have to expect limited life.. Thats the chemistry of the battery.. at 20c an AA alkaline has about 2800mah capacity, in 4c its about 800ma... Thats quite a difference! Has nothing to do with the electronics.. in warm water the alkalines do OK.. if you think about it the actual power consumption of the electronics is very small when you look at the actual power delivered.. a single AA alakaline delievers a fraction of the power that the 6v lithium cells used in the vision deliever.. if you compare actual power consumed the HH is ALOT less. if your doing really simple dives, you can use alkalines just about anytime, If you need the duration, you can use the more expensive but more reiable lithium cell.. Thats the beauty of the HH, you have a wide range of cells you can use... You can get aa alkaline cells just about anywhere in the world, forget to bring some spares for the cells the inspiration uses and you might have a problem.. it happened to me once, luckily I did find a place that had a battery but they ripped me off forsomething like $20.

As to my confort level.. Its not the lack of familiarity with the electronics, Its that I don't have true backups, and don't trust the power scheme.. I used to do alot of contract microcontroller design, so I know whats involved in designing and testing portable power systems. The scheme employed on the vision is not one that I could ever be confortable with, Thats why I say I wouldnt use it for really big dives..

I like the explorer and have had pretty good luck with them.. I know and admit there have been many issues.. But when you get one that works it usually works well.. out of all the DC I have used at this time I like the profiles generated by the explorer yet so I use it.. Over the years I have seen a few issues myself.. I did a bunch of beta testing for gene... I had 1 flood, 1 loose display and 1 broken depth sensor in about 8 years... Thats not that bad considering how many dives I have on them.. The loose display was my fault, and the flood was on the initial batch of new cases before gene knew of the problem (Mine was the first flood).. My current explorer is about 4 years old..

as to reliability on the HH electronics I have never missed a dive because of them, and I've had the electronics longer than anyone ut there.. The closest I came was that I had to delay a dive.. I had an HH on an Inspiration I had the explorer integrated, during my gear up, the cable for the exlorer pulled out of the fischer connector.. It was pretty rotted.. I removed the cable but didn't have a 1/4 npt plug to plug up the lid...

The only other problem that I have had (and its was with the delrin handset) was that the secondary didn't want to go to sleep after a dive.. It was no biggie.. I dove with it this way for a few weeks and just removed the battery between dives (obviously I didn't use the computer in the secondary)..

The only minor power issue I ever had was 2 reboots and they were both while I was beta testing the metal handsets (I didn't even have a bezel on my units).. The problem was that I didn't fully tighten the battery cap.. After that, keeping it clean and lubed I never had another issue..

As to going back to kevin, some failures kevin has sent out repleacement parts to for those that he feels are capable of making the fixes (most of the ones I know about were pressure sensors).. for people in the states its only a few days extra so its probably best to go back, but international if it can be fixed by sending parts thats a time saver. A few people kevin will send entire ckt boards, but thats to a very limited set of people..

Some of the problems with the HH in the past is that it was an upgrade and people were not necessarily trained on it and most did not read the manual.. Most of the issues could have been prevented if people RTFM.. Alot of the potential problems were anticipated and documented on how to prevent and what to do if it happens..

as to the cochrans, its been qute along time since they had any issues.. the computer that had problems was from the mid 90s (if I remember correctly it was called the nemesis).. I too had bad experience with one and swore off them because of it.. around 2000 I was given the opportunity (really had to be convinced to try it) to dive a beta unit of the commander.. I really liked it and I have never had any problems with any of the cochrans since then.. (full disclosure - I didn't have to pay for the DC (didn't have to give the 1st unit back) and had several free upgrades through the product line). Everyone I have lent the computer to (usually because of their computer failing) has loved the commander, and several have purchased it because of that.. The cochrans do have their downsides when it comes to bailout, but if your basing you deco on a DC you should Never be diving one anyway (2 at a minimum, 3 preferred), thats is 1 reason why its not my primary computer..

PCDiver · 28th August 2008, 07:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The only other problem that I have had (and its was with the delrin handset) was that the secondary didn't want to go to sleep after a dive.. It was no biggie.. I dove with it this way fo a few weeks and just removed the battery between dives (obviously I didnt use the computer in the econdary)..

I'm really surprised that you had the "I don't want to go to sleep feature" on the delrin handsets. I assumed this problem only happened on the old metal handsets.

***jradomski*** · 28th August 2008, 08:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

I'm really surprised that you had the "I don't want to go to sleep feature" on the delrin handsets. I assumed this problem only happened on the old metal handsets.

intermittent Problem with ckt board (I had to swap it out) that developed... on the metal handsets without the enlarged hole some were oversensitive..

pabusk · 28th August 2008, 11:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by scubanimal)

However, Kevin (HH) is far superior in service in all aspects.

What service do you mean and if it's customer service ... what do you base that on if the Vision hasn't failed you yet.

I have to say that I've received nothing but excelent service from APD and would fail to see that anyone would do better (and I'm not saying that Kevin does worse).

Cheers,
Paul

VIKTOR66 · 28th August 2008, 17:59

I don't have too much experience and only with evolution vision. I do some cave dives 330 feet plus for around 4 hours and the vision electronics worked fine for me. I only had problems with batteries, like not turning on because a faulty battery, change the battery no problem. Once in the water any battery works around 17 hours for me. It could work more but I like to change the battery as soon is not above 5.8 volts when firing the solenoid. For the rest I only had problems with connectors, getting loose and I had to adjust. When doing expedition dives I put new batteries always and I had no problem till now. I cannot compare with other rebreathers as I don't have experience with them but for me the vision work very well.

***jradomski*** · 28th August 2008, 18:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by VIKTOR66)

I don't have too much experience and only with evolution vision. I do some cave dives 330 feet plus for around 4 hours and the vision electronics worked fine for me. I only had problems with batteries, like not turning on because a faulty battery, change the battery no problem. Once in the water any battery works around 17 hours for me. It could work more but I like to change the battery as soon is not above 5.8 volts when firing the solenoid. For the rest I only had problems with connectors, getting loose and I had to adjust. When doing expedition dives I put new batteries always and I had no problem till now. I cannot compare with other rebreathers as I don't have experience with them but for me the vision work very well.

If it couldn't do a 4 hr dive then it shouldn't be on the market.. Never said it could do a big dive.. My point is that the more dives you do the more likely a failure will occur.. Its not if, its when.. When that happens I want the confort of knowing my backup should be there.. I have had few failures on the classic on some very long dives, but it was no big deal as the second controller was fine and I knew it had a brand new battery in it that I for sure knew how much time it was used for.. Once you start sharing power you can never be sure things will be powered as you expect.. sh*t happens.. On the big dives, OC bailout isnt always a good option, so being able to stay on the loop as long as possible is important.

**Dave Sutton** · 28th August 2008, 18:39

One word of advice: Shearwater.

Dual handsets.

Dual power supplies.

Solenoid power NOT driven from handsets... (the apparent achilles heel of the HH, see many threads on the subject).

Dave

.

27th August 2008, 08:34	#21 (permalink)
teksimple RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Haifa Street, Baghdad Posts: 515	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics From what I have observed, the Vision electronics seem sufficient for people who dive on holiday. Plenty of time to send it in for service. If you dive 50-100+ times a year, its a no-brainer as to which is more reliable. __________________ ---- _____________ "I don't know the percentage of the Internet that's valid, do you? Jesus, it's scary." - Hunter S. Thompson
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27th August 2008, 21:29	#22 (permalink)
scubanimal RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Optima Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 98	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics I own and dive both regularly. There are pros and cons to both. My vision system has not failed me yet, the HH has now several times. (missed a week of diving) However, Kevin (HH) is far superior in service in all aspects. I've had my HH controller fail twice while diving and once my buddies failed. Not critical as I fly manually most of the time, but annoying. I prefer the controls though on my HH, but prefer the display on my vision. The Diva is definitely much better then the fiberoptic lights of the vision. Personally I'm fine with the single handset, others clearly are not. I really like the download of the vision (only way to tell if you're manual flying is any good). the HH does not have that. As mentioned above I would really look at the type of diving you're planning on doing, it may help you decide. In the end you'll probably be happy with either. Besides you'll probably sell what ever you get in a few years to upgrade to the next generation anyway, so cost may drive it in the end.
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28th August 2008, 03:40	#23 (permalink)
MarkZ RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: PA USA Posts: 106	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Mark, I teach and own multiple rebreathers, so my comments are based on my preference.. I couldn't care less if a person purchased a rEvo, HH or inspiration if it was right for their diving. When I do rebreather demos, I always bring the above rigs and some others that I don't teach.. Everyone has a favorite and thats what they will suggest first and thats what I do.. In the next 2 months I have several rEvos that I have sold and have to train people on.. For them it was the right choice.. I also sell KISS rebreathers and still do some training on Inspirations.. I'dsay thats pretty neutral and not locked into one commercial interest.. I like the Explorer for its profiles but frankly the 15 second logging doesnt cut it.. The cochran logs every second.. mine has 1450 hours of logging.. and if I needed it I have another computer.. Its the best for the job so I use it.. DIves like the doria, arent really expedition level dives in my book.. Typical run times are less than 90 minutes.. The britanic dives are more in what I consider expedition level.. I do alot of dives with 4+ hour run times, in that case I want a system I can stay on the loop under anything but a failure of loop integrerity. Just because dives were done on it doesnt mean it was suitable.. People have done dives on the doria with a SINGLE 72... Does that mean it was safe or smart. I have a specific confort level in my equiptment that I want.. I have that level with teh classic electronics, I dont have that with the vision.. Joe, Let me begin by telling you that I do not have a specific problem with you. Quite the contrary I know several students you have trained and they came away from the course as well trained safe divers. That being said I think the key phrase to your response is that you don't have a specific level of comfort with the Vision. Nothing wrong with that but the question that begs to be asked is it the unit or a personal perference? I think to be honest with ourselves it is the latter. You like the explorer even though vast numbers of users have had a laundry list of problems with them. I don't have recent experience with Cochrans but a few years back they were laughable as far as reliability. I seem to remember a nickname of the hammer as a number of users were seen banging them against the sides of boats in attempts to get them to work. Hopefully that has changed but again that comes down to personal perference. As far as the expeditions are concerned again I believe that it is more a personal level of comfort thing. You mention that for 4 hour dives you would rather be on a HH then a vision but standing back is it really the safest choice? For a start just the battery issue comes to mind. Again my personal experience with HH's is limited to a few hours diving them myself and observation of a number of others that have them. I would not think myself bold to suggest that the Vision has a documentated far greater length of service between battery changes then the HH. If there is one knock on the HH it is the fact that they eat batteries like kids eat ice cream. From a neutral position which would be a better unit for an expedition one that has a 3 or 4 hour battery life or one that has 20 or 30? I also do not see any real difference in field serviceablity between a HH and a Vision. If the electronics fail they both have to go back to the factory, everything else can be field repaired. As far as repairs they both seem to take about the same amount of time for similar service and differences come into play with shipping times. If in the states JM is faster and if on the other side of the pond AP is faster. I completely agree with your admiration of the classic and hesitation to part with it. I was pretty much in the same boat. I have had conversations of great length with a number of people before I decided to make the switch. Not only did I talk with SDS but also some training agencies. All that being said I am still not entirely sure I have a complete level of comfort with the single handset even though I have been assured that coupled with another dive computer there are a number of redundancies. I am pretty much convinced that the mental block is of my own making rather then of any factual basis. I don't really like the new V-rods either and like the old school bikes better also. Again that is just me. Either way you are still not going to get me to type into my telephone. Mark
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28th August 2008, 04:50	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by MarkZ) Joe, Let me begin by telling you that I do not have a specific problem with you. Quite the contrary I know several students you have trained and they came away from the course as well trained safe divers. That being said I think the key phrase to your response is that you don't have a specific level of comfort with the Vision. Nothing wrong with that but the question that begs to be asked is it the unit or a personal perference? I think to be honest with ourselves it is the latter. You like the explorer even though vast numbers of users have had a laundry list of problems with them. I don't have recent experience with Cochrans but a few years back they were laughable as far as reliability. I seem to remember a nickname of the hammer as a number of users were seen banging them against the sides of boats in attempts to get them to work. Hopefully that has changed but again that comes down to personal perference. As far as the expeditions are concerned again I believe that it is more a personal level of comfort thing. You mention that for 4 hour dives you would rather be on a HH then a vision but standing back is it really the safest choice? For a start just the battery issue comes to mind. Again my personal experience with HH's is limited to a few hours diving them myself and observation of a number of others that have them. I would not think myself bold to suggest that the Vision has a documentated far greater length of service between battery changes then the HH. If there is one knock on the HH it is the fact that they eat batteries like kids eat ice cream. From a neutral position which would be a better unit for an expedition one that has a 3 or 4 hour battery life or one that has 20 or 30? I also do not see any real difference in field serviceablity between a HH and a Vision. If the electronics fail they both have to go back to the factory, everything else can be field repaired. As far as repairs they both seem to take about the same amount of time for similar service and differences come into play with shipping times. If in the states JM is faster and if on the other side of the pond AP is faster. I completely agree with your admiration of the classic and hesitation to part with it. I was pretty much in the same boat. I have had conversations of great length with a number of people before I decided to make the switch. Not only did I talk with SDS but also some training agencies. All that being said I am still not entirely sure I have a complete level of comfort with the single handset even though I have been assured that coupled with another dive computer there are a number of redundancies. I am pretty much convinced that the mental block is of my own making rather then of any factual basis. I don't really like the new V-rods either and like the old school bikes better also. Again that is just me. Either way you are still not going to get me to type into my telephone. Mark Mark, Yes for long dives I definately prefer the HH.. I have NEVER had ANY battry issues.. For BS dives I might use aa alkalines, but never for serious stuff.. 99% of the time I use saft ls14500, and I usually get 30 to 40 hours of dive time per battery (this is the average I see over the 5+ years I have been using a HH - and there is usually life left but I dont push it).. On this current set I have right now 45 hours on the primary (the secondary was replaced at 36 - I probably have nearly 100% manual control on this set) Thats pretty damn good.. Someone who doesn't do any manual control can expect at least 20 hours on a battery life.. In cold water I will only use alkalines if thats my only choice and make sure I change the cell after every dive. And its not the the HH eats batteries its the chemistry. If someone chooses to use alkaline batteries in cold water they have to expect limited life.. Thats the chemistry of the battery.. at 20c an AA alkaline has about 2800mah capacity, in 4c its about 800ma... Thats quite a difference! Has nothing to do with the electronics.. in warm water the alkalines do OK.. if you think about it the actual power consumption of the electronics is very small when you look at the actual power delivered.. a single AA alakaline delievers a fraction of the power that the 6v lithium cells used in the vision deliever.. if you compare actual power consumed the HH is ALOT less. if your doing really simple dives, you can use alkalines just about anytime, If you need the duration, you can use the more expensive but more reiable lithium cell.. Thats the beauty of the HH, you have a wide range of cells you can use... You can get aa alkaline cells just about anywhere in the world, forget to bring some spares for the cells the inspiration uses and you might have a problem.. it happened to me once, luckily I did find a place that had a battery but they ripped me off forsomething like $20. As to my confort level.. Its not the lack of familiarity with the electronics, Its that I don't have true backups, and don't trust the power scheme.. I used to do alot of contract microcontroller design, so I know whats involved in designing and testing portable power systems. The scheme employed on the vision is not one that I could ever be confortable with, Thats why I say I wouldnt use it for really big dives.. I like the explorer and have had pretty good luck with them.. I know and admit there have been many issues.. But when you get one that works it usually works well.. out of all the DC I have used at this time I like the profiles generated by the explorer yet so I use it.. Over the years I have seen a few issues myself.. I did a bunch of beta testing for gene... I had 1 flood, 1 loose display and 1 broken depth sensor in about 8 years... Thats not that bad considering how many dives I have on them.. The loose display was my fault, and the flood was on the initial batch of new cases before gene knew of the problem (Mine was the first flood).. My current explorer is about 4 years old.. as to reliability on the HH electronics I have never missed a dive because of them, and I've had the electronics longer than anyone ut there.. The closest I came was that I had to delay a dive.. I had an HH on an Inspiration I had the explorer integrated, during my gear up, the cable for the exlorer pulled out of the fischer connector.. It was pretty rotted.. I removed the cable but didn't have a 1/4 npt plug to plug up the lid... The only other problem that I have had (and its was with the delrin handset) was that the secondary didn't want to go to sleep after a dive.. It was no biggie.. I dove with it this way for a few weeks and just removed the battery between dives (obviously I didn't use the computer in the secondary).. The only minor power issue I ever had was 2 reboots and they were both while I was beta testing the metal handsets (I didn't even have a bezel on my units).. The problem was that I didn't fully tighten the battery cap.. After that, keeping it clean and lubed I never had another issue.. As to going back to kevin, some failures kevin has sent out repleacement parts to for those that he feels are capable of making the fixes (most of the ones I know about were pressure sensors).. for people in the states its only a few days extra so its probably best to go back, but international if it can be fixed by sending parts thats a time saver. A few people kevin will send entire ckt boards, but thats to a very limited set of people.. Some of the problems with the HH in the past is that it was an upgrade and people were not necessarily trained on it and most did not read the manual.. Most of the issues could have been prevented if people RTFM.. Alot of the potential problems were anticipated and documented on how to prevent and what to do if it happens.. as to the cochrans, its been qute along time since they had any issues.. the computer that had problems was from the mid 90s (if I remember correctly it was called the nemesis).. I too had bad experience with one and swore off them because of it.. around 2000 I was given the opportunity (really had to be convinced to try it) to dive a beta unit of the commander.. I really liked it and I have never had any problems with any of the cochrans since then.. (full disclosure - I didn't have to pay for the DC (didn't have to give the 1st unit back) and had several free upgrades through the product line). Everyone I have lent the computer to (usually because of their computer failing) has loved the commander, and several have purchased it because of that.. The cochrans do have their downsides when it comes to bailout, but if your basing you deco on a DC you should Never be diving one anyway (2 at a minimum, 3 preferred), thats is 1 reason why its not my primary computer.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 28th August 2008 at 18:22.
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28th August 2008, 07:32	#25 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The only other problem that I have had (and its was with the delrin handset) was that the secondary didn't want to go to sleep after a dive.. It was no biggie.. I dove with it this way fo a few weeks and just removed the battery between dives (obviously I didnt use the computer in the econdary).. I'm really surprised that you had the "I don't want to go to sleep feature" on the delrin handsets. I assumed this problem only happened on the old metal handsets. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune Last edited by PCDiver : 29th August 2008 at 08:03.
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28th August 2008, 08:03	#26 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) I'm really surprised that you had the "I don't want to go to sleep feature" on the delrin handsets. I assumed this problem only happened on the old metal handsets. intermittent Problem with ckt board (I had to swap it out) that developed... on the metal handsets without the enlarged hole some were oversensitive.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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28th August 2008, 11:13	#27 (permalink)
pabusk Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 133	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by scubanimal) However, Kevin (HH) is far superior in service in all aspects. What service do you mean and if it's customer service ... what do you base that on if the Vision hasn't failed you yet. I have to say that I've received nothing but excelent service from APD and would fail to see that anyone would do better (and I'm not saying that Kevin does worse). Cheers, Paul
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28th August 2008, 17:59	#28 (permalink)
VIKTOR66 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2007 Location: Playa del Carmen Posts: 8	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics I don't have too much experience and only with evolution vision. I do some cave dives 330 feet plus for around 4 hours and the vision electronics worked fine for me. I only had problems with batteries, like not turning on because a faulty battery, change the battery no problem. Once in the water any battery works around 17 hours for me. It could work more but I like to change the battery as soon is not above 5.8 volts when firing the solenoid. For the rest I only had problems with connectors, getting loose and I had to adjust. When doing expedition dives I put new batteries always and I had no problem till now. I cannot compare with other rebreathers as I don't have experience with them but for me the vision work very well.
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28th August 2008, 18:30	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics Quote: (Originally Posted by VIKTOR66) I don't have too much experience and only with evolution vision. I do some cave dives 330 feet plus for around 4 hours and the vision electronics worked fine for me. I only had problems with batteries, like not turning on because a faulty battery, change the battery no problem. Once in the water any battery works around 17 hours for me. It could work more but I like to change the battery as soon is not above 5.8 volts when firing the solenoid. For the rest I only had problems with connectors, getting loose and I had to adjust. When doing expedition dives I put new batteries always and I had no problem till now. I cannot compare with other rebreathers as I don't have experience with them but for me the vision work very well. If it couldn't do a 4 hr dive then it shouldn't be on the market.. Never said it could do a big dive.. My point is that the more dives you do the more likely a failure will occur.. Its not if, its when.. When that happens I want the confort of knowing my backup should be there.. I have had few failures on the classic on some very long dives, but it was no big deal as the second controller was fine and I knew it had a brand new battery in it that I for sure knew how much time it was used for.. Once you start sharing power you can never be sure things will be powered as you expect.. sht happens.. On the big dives, OC bailout isnt always a good option, so being able to stay on the loop as long as possible is important. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI* Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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28th August 2008, 18:39	#30 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: Hammerhead's Delrin vs Vision Electronics One word of advice: Shearwater. Dual handsets. Dual power supplies. Solenoid power NOT driven from handsets... (the apparent achilles heel of the HH, see many threads on the subject). Dave . __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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