Check your ADV feed hoses!!!

teholopa · 11th August 2008, 13:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by taza)

Can someone send me a picture of the ADV with the hose crimped.
Cheers
Taza

there you go. also picture of the broken one...

-tommi-

AD_ward9 · 11th August 2008, 14:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M)

So AP isnt contacting their customers who might be affected? They've obviously known about this very dangerous issue for at least few days now.

Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated.

There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped.

The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version).

The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed.

Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type?

I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy.

Alex

***Beanie*** · 11th August 2008, 15:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated.

There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped.

The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version).

The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed.

Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type?

I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy.

Alex

Its the cripmed end that's the problem, the reg end is the only MP hose fitting AP crimp all the rest are screw on and as you say rather good. I had a 1st stage fail and let 200bar down the hose, the hose went pop but the fitting was fine.

taza · 11th August 2008, 17:59

The end that screws into the manifold is non crimped, but the ADV end should be crimped.
I have just removed the hose from my unit and lightly pulled on the hose and it just came apart in my hand.

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...ADVHOSE003.jpg

Cheers

TAZA

AD_ward9 · 13th August 2008, 18:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by taza)

The end that screws into the manifold is non crimped, but the ADV end should be crimped.
I have just removed the hose from my unit and lightly pulled on the hose and it just came apart in my hand.

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...ADVHOSE003.jpg

Cheers

TAZA

Well that is definitely a crimped one, that has not been crimped.
Thanks for indulging my interest. Lesson seems to be use only one type of end. Just a matter of interest, anyone know why this end is used instead of one of the nice manually tightened ends that APD do? Can't imagine them coming unscrewed by accident too easily. There must be some reason for the different type here and am curious what it is.

And that IS a good lobster you have. Not one of the light blue old ones. Wonder what it fed on to get so big so young?

Alex

jhaaja · 13th August 2008, 19:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated.

There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped.

The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version).

The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed.

Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type?

I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy.

Alex

The ones I saw here in Finland were those "should have been crimped" ones.

**Dave Sutton** · 13th August 2008, 20:24

More ISO 9000 Quality Management System manufactured LIFE SUPPORT DEVICES produced by AP... complete with yet another inherant defect that can cause loss of a human life. And this being a VERY basic Quality Control issue.

Forgive my skepticism, and this is the first time I have placed my concerns in the public domain, but I have a question for the group:

WHY do people patronize this firm when better products are available from other sources?

These kinds of errors can kill you. I simply do not get it.

Naturally, AP has issued an all-modes alert to the entire industry to find and identify these flawed hoses, as has been their policy when previously identifying other life critical engineering and quality control issues?

"Oh, we're just sending out the odd hose uncrimped so that divers become aware that the BANG-Drills taught by the instructors have a basis in reality.... If you die after all of your diluent blows out and you cannot inflate your wings or CL's anything else as you sink uncontrolled into Davy Jones Locker, it's clearly DIVER ERROR... as are all of the OTHER mishaps divers have experienced on our products"

<sigh>

Dave

.

***Beanie*** · 13th August 2008, 21:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

More ISO 9000 Quality Management System manufactured LIFE SUPPORT DEVICES produced by AP... complete with yet another inherant defect that can cause loss of a human life. And this being a VERY basic Quality Control issue.

Forgive my skepticism, and this is the first time I have placed my concerns in the public domain, but I have a question for the group:

WHY do people patronize this firm when better products are available from other sources?

These kinds of errors can kill you. I simply do not get it.

Naturally, AP has issued an all-modes alert to the entire industry to find and identify these flawed hoses, as has been their policy when previously identifying other life critical engineering and quality control issues?

"Oh, we're just sending out the odd hose uncrimped so that divers become aware that the BANG-Drills taught by the instructors have a basis in reality.... If you die after all of your diluent blows out and you cannot inflate your wings or CL's anything else as you sink uncontrolled into Davy Jones Locker, it's clearly DIVER ERROR... as are all of the OTHER mishaps divers have experienced on our products"

<sigh>

Dave

.

This is not a long term quality issue, its a batch quality issue and knowing AP it will of been addressed. Ap may well of told customers / instructors that have brought units that may off been affected.
I don't need to know as my hose is crimped.

**Dave Sutton** · 14th August 2008, 05:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie)

This is not a long term quality issue, its a batch quality issue and knowing AP it will of been addressed. Ap may well of told customers / instructors that have brought units that may off been affected.
I don't need to know as my hose is crimped.

<enter rant mode here, sensitive types scoll down to the bottom>

Are you KIDDING? Are there only a few of us who see that something is dreadfully wrong here both with this manufacturer AND the consumers expectations? if I got a piece of expensve life support equipment that had a BASIC assembly flaw that might very well have been life threatening, I'd have sent it back and demanded a full and immediate refund, and would immediately buy something else, and would be incensed.

"May" have informed them? None of the posters here were informed, and as far as life support systems are concerned, any defects of this nature are too many. This sort of thing shows an endemic problem with the definition of "quality" by this manufacturer. Do they have monkeys assembling these things? To be frank, it's utterly inexcusable.

"Batch Quality Issue"... Bah: Next we'll be having "batch fatal accident statistic sets".
Oh, wait... we already do (battery bounce, et-al). Quality Control there is a joke.

Caveat Emptor: Pay attention: This stuff is BAD.

<exit rant mode here... sensitive types may tune back in to our normal programme>

AP "Quality Control"? Don't make me laugh.

Sutton

.

***Beanie*** · 14th August 2008, 08:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

<enter rant mode here, sensitive types scoll down to the bottom>

Are you KIDDING? Are there only a few of us who see that something is dreadfully wrong here both with this manufacturer AND the consumers expectations? if I got a piece of expensve life support equipment that had a BASIC assembly flaw that might very well have been life threatening, I'd have sent it back and demanded a full and immediate refund, and would immediately buy something else, and would be incensed.

"May" have informed them? None of the posters here were informed, and as far as life support systems are concerned, any defects of this nature are too many. This sort of thing shows an endemic problem with the definition of "quality" by this manufacturer. Do they have monkeys assembling these things? To be frank, it's utterly inexcusable.

"Batch Quality Issue"... Bah: Next we'll be having "batch fatal accident statistic sets".
Oh, wait... we already do (battery bounce, et-al). Quality Control there is a joke.

Caveat Emptor: Pay attention: This stuff is BAD.

<exit rant mode here... sensitive types may tune back in to our normal programme>

AP "Quality Control"? Don't make me laugh.

Sutton

.

Have you been to the factory?
Have you dived with the staff and MD?
How much AP kit have you had?

We are talking about the hose issue here nothing else and as far as we know this is isolated to a few hoses. If every unit leaving the factory had this problem then it would be a much bigger problem.
Given that the units were sold in April and they've only just fail in August after 4 months that's not bad for a hose that isn't finished.

PS nobody has been proven to have died as a direct result of battery bounce. (to my knowledge)

11th August 2008, 14:35	#12 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,016	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M) So AP isnt contacting their customers who might be affected? They've obviously known about this very dangerous issue for at least few days now. Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated. There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped. The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version). The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed. Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type? I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy. Alex __________________ Latest FAQ on Open Revolution Apocalypse rebreather is via the topmost item http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_updates.php. Last updated on 4th October: the last before DEMA!
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11th August 2008, 15:54	#13 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,312	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated. There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped. The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version). The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed. Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type? I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy. Alex Its the cripmed end that's the problem, the reg end is the only MP hose fitting AP crimp all the rest are screw on and as you say rather good. I had a 1st stage fail and let 200bar down the hose, the hose went pop but the fitting was fine. __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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11th August 2008, 17:59	#14 (permalink)
taza New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Warrington UK Posts: 87	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! The end that screws into the manifold is non crimped, but the ADV end should be crimped. I have just removed the hose from my unit and lightly pulled on the hose and it just came apart in my hand. http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...ADVHOSE003.jpg Cheers TAZA
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13th August 2008, 18:34	#15 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,016	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by taza) The end that screws into the manifold is non crimped, but the ADV end should be crimped. I have just removed the hose from my unit and lightly pulled on the hose and it just came apart in my hand. http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l...ADVHOSE003.jpg Cheers TAZA Well that is definitely a crimped one, that has not been crimped. Thanks for indulging my interest. Lesson seems to be use only one type of end. Just a matter of interest, anyone know why this end is used instead of one of the nice manually tightened ends that APD do? Can't imagine them coming unscrewed by accident too easily. There must be some reason for the different type here and am curious what it is. And that IS a good lobster you have. Not one of the light blue old ones. Wonder what it fed on to get so big so young? Alex __________________ Latest FAQ on Open Revolution Apocalypse rebreather is via the topmost item http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_updates.php. Last updated on 4th October: the last before DEMA! Last edited by AD_ward9 : 13th August 2008 at 18:39.
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13th August 2008, 19:28	#16 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 885	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Looking at the picture, the problem might be exaggerated. There are two types of hose fixing: crimped and non-crimped. The crimped ones are for life, and you can't change hose lengths ever. Which can be a pain. The crimping is cheaper than the turned version (non-crimped version). The APD non-crimped ones are rather good, so long as they are tightened up well. They allow you to change hose lengths should you so wish. I am interested in how it failed. Was the hose a bigger diameter internally than normal, or is it a problem with the serrated barbs on the inner part, or it just was not done up tight so it came undone? Or is it really a crimped fitting that just was not crimped: from the picture the one that came apart looked like a fitting that is of the non-crimp type? I have used the non-crimped hoses for years, and found it is one thing APD do well. After they stopped speaking to me, it took me a little while to find an alternative supplier. I am interested at what went wrong so I can check the ones I buy. Alex The ones I saw here in Finland were those "should have been crimped" ones.
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13th August 2008, 20:24	#17 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! More ISO 9000 Quality Management System manufactured LIFE SUPPORT DEVICES produced by AP... complete with yet another inherant defect that can cause loss of a human life. And this being a VERY basic Quality Control issue. Forgive my skepticism, and this is the first time I have placed my concerns in the public domain, but I have a question for the group: WHY do people patronize this firm when better products are available from other sources? These kinds of errors can kill you. I simply do not get it. Naturally, AP has issued an all-modes alert to the entire industry to find and identify these flawed hoses, as has been their policy when previously identifying other life critical engineering and quality control issues? "Oh, we're just sending out the odd hose uncrimped so that divers become aware that the BANG-Drills taught by the instructors have a basis in reality.... If you die after all of your diluent blows out and you cannot inflate your wings or CL's anything else as you sink uncontrolled into Davy Jones Locker, it's clearly DIVER ERROR... as are all of the OTHER mishaps divers have experienced on our products" <sigh> Dave . __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 13th August 2008 at 20:30.
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13th August 2008, 21:24	#18 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,312	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) More ISO 9000 Quality Management System manufactured LIFE SUPPORT DEVICES produced by AP... complete with yet another inherant defect that can cause loss of a human life. And this being a VERY basic Quality Control issue. Forgive my skepticism, and this is the first time I have placed my concerns in the public domain, but I have a question for the group: WHY do people patronize this firm when better products are available from other sources? These kinds of errors can kill you. I simply do not get it. Naturally, AP has issued an all-modes alert to the entire industry to find and identify these flawed hoses, as has been their policy when previously identifying other life critical engineering and quality control issues? "Oh, we're just sending out the odd hose uncrimped so that divers become aware that the BANG-Drills taught by the instructors have a basis in reality.... If you die after all of your diluent blows out and you cannot inflate your wings or CL's anything else as you sink uncontrolled into Davy Jones Locker, it's clearly DIVER ERROR... as are all of the OTHER mishaps divers have experienced on our products" <sigh> Dave . This is not a long term quality issue, its a batch quality issue and knowing AP it will of been addressed. Ap may well of told customers / instructors that have brought units that may off been affected. I don't need to know as my hose is crimped. __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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14th August 2008, 05:07	#19 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie) This is not a long term quality issue, its a batch quality issue and knowing AP it will of been addressed. Ap may well of told customers / instructors that have brought units that may off been affected. I don't need to know as my hose is crimped. <enter rant mode here, sensitive types scoll down to the bottom> Are you KIDDING? Are there only a few of us who see that something is dreadfully wrong here both with this manufacturer AND the consumers expectations? if I got a piece of expensve life support equipment that had a BASIC assembly flaw that might very well have been life threatening, I'd have sent it back and demanded a full and immediate refund, and would immediately buy something else, and would be incensed. "May" have informed them? None of the posters here were informed, and as far as life support systems are concerned, any defects of this nature are too many. This sort of thing shows an endemic problem with the definition of "quality" by this manufacturer. Do they have monkeys assembling these things? To be frank, it's utterly inexcusable. "Batch Quality Issue"... Bah: Next we'll be having "batch fatal accident statistic sets". Oh, wait... we already do (battery bounce, et-al). Quality Control there is a joke. Caveat Emptor: Pay attention: This stuff is BAD. <exit rant mode here... sensitive types may tune back in to our normal programme> AP "Quality Control"? Don't make me laugh. Sutton . __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 14th August 2008 at 05:16.
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14th August 2008, 08:26	#20 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,312	Re: Check your ADV feed hoses!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) <enter rant mode here, sensitive types scoll down to the bottom> Are you KIDDING? Are there only a few of us who see that something is dreadfully wrong here both with this manufacturer AND the consumers expectations? if I got a piece of expensve life support equipment that had a BASIC assembly flaw that might very well have been life threatening, I'd have sent it back and demanded a full and immediate refund, and would immediately buy something else, and would be incensed. "May" have informed them? None of the posters here were informed, and as far as life support systems are concerned, any defects of this nature are too many. This sort of thing shows an endemic problem with the definition of "quality" by this manufacturer. Do they have monkeys assembling these things? To be frank, it's utterly inexcusable. "Batch Quality Issue"... Bah: Next we'll be having "batch fatal accident statistic sets". Oh, wait... we already do (battery bounce, et-al). Quality Control there is a joke. Caveat Emptor: Pay attention: This stuff is BAD. <exit rant mode here... sensitive types may tune back in to our normal programme> AP "Quality Control"? Don't make me laugh. Sutton . Have you been to the factory? Have you dived with the staff and MD? How much AP kit have you had? We are talking about the hose issue here nothing else and as far as we know this is isolated to a few hoses. If every unit leaving the factory had this problem then it would be a much bigger problem. Given that the units were sold in April and they've only just fail in August after 4 months that's not bad for a hose that isn't finished. PS nobody has been proven to have died as a direct result of battery bounce. (to my knowledge) __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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