Lemon Yellow

cramerdn · 10th July 2008, 12:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

...The classic is simple and solid.. There are a few things to look out for but it generally works as designed...

Wow what a recomendation. Pretty happy with my Vision that has worked as designed and has worked well.

jptaylor9 · 10th July 2008, 12:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I also can't believe a piece of life support gear went out the door (and took along time to fix) that lost 17mins per hour.. That should have been caught well before it ever reacheded any divers hands..

Although, as I understand it, it didn't effect the Vision's core life support function as it didn't have any effect on set point monitoring/control. It effected the on-board deco calcs of the Nitrox version, but not the Trimix version which most people purchased (timer ok).

Very happy with my Vision, functions well beyond it CE limit!

Mdemon · 10th July 2008, 14:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie)

yes the cell holders are almost the same

Classic: 5 cells and two ports
Vision: 4 celss and one port

Have fitted my shearwater HUD to both classic and vision.

From the Inventor himself! Happy to be put right.

***jradomski*** · 10th July 2008, 19:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9)

Although, as I understand it, it didn't effect the Vision's core life support function as it didn't have any effect on set point monitoring/control. It effected the on-board deco calcs of the Nitrox version, but not the Trimix version which most people purchased (timer ok).

Very happy with my Vision, functions well beyond it CE limit!

But people with NITROX units DID get them.. luckily no one was hurt.. Thats a serious bug..

Most people have had relatively good sucess with the vision electronics, but all the issues with power problems scares the hell out of me for big dives where I really don't want to have to bail to OC..

I think with a truely independent power scheme (or hell add 2 more batteries, and have each controller with a backup), and some option to add even a simple secondary po2 readout, it would be a hell of a rig from the factory... Right now you have to add something like an integrated vr3, explorer, or shearwater to get that level of redundancy..

cramerdn · 10th July 2008, 21:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I think with a truely independent power scheme (or hell add 2 more batteries, and have each controller with a backup),

So the two controllers should both have back ups? Yeah thats what I need a four battery, four controller, rebreather. Since CO2 hits are an issue why not a back up scrubber? Why only carry one tank each of dil and O2? Probably best to carry 200% of your calculated bailout gas in case of SPG, reg, or tank failures.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

and some option to add even a simple secondary po2 readout, it would be a hell of a rig from the factory... Right now you have to add something like an integrated vr3, explorer, or shearwater

A simple secondary PO2 readout? If you have invented this device you really should let the rest of us in on it. Cells have issues, thats why there are three and voting logic. A shearwater or VR3 read the same cells. So you are suggesting we add 3 more cells? So a 6 cell, 4 controller, 4 battery unit, congradulations you have invented the Back Up Rebreather. Folks who need them already dive them.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

to get that level of redundancy..

You mean like the redundancy of having two controllers in slave mode?

divetheworld · 10th July 2008, 22:17

If one truely believes his unit can not fail, he will not need bailout.
If one carries bailout, then he admits the possibility of failure.
With the possibility of failure, common sense and risk assessment would logically lead to mitigating the effects of such a failure.
The most efficient way to complete a technical rebreather dive is on a rebreather.
If the fault can be mitigated and still leave the rebreather functional, you have mitigated the risk in the most efficient manner.
If one unit in the market place has had a complete or part electronics failure, then a failure of the electronics is a possibility.
One method of mitigating the risks due to electronics failure is to use a backup that can not suffer the faults of the primary.
To prevent a fault from transferring from one set of electronics to another, there should be as few components as possible in common.

Brent

divetheworld · 10th July 2008, 22:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

From the Inventor himself! Happy to be put right.

Ian indeed conceived the idea. The Classic holder is more clever. The vision one just isnt as funky. There is no need to have a detacheable cell holder on the Vision because of the basket that comes off.

Now, you would know the Beanie holder has 5 cell holders on it if you brought round that (and I use the term loosely) "rebreather" of yours. Coz I'd have had to slap one in just to teach you a lesson.
And got rid of the choc bloc, insulation tape, duck tape, chewing gum, <singing> and a partridge in a pear tree.......

Mdemon · 10th July 2008, 22:48

Ahem! I think you'll find it's "Duct" tape, Mr Thicky!

And MY Beanie adapter has 5 holes. So there! Choc block now redundant since soldering iron started working. And you thought you were kidding...

(But thanks for reminding me where I left my spanner...)

divetheworld · 10th July 2008, 23:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Ahem! I think you'll find it's "Duct" tape, Mr Thicky!

Ha ha!!! There's only one Duck.
The Duck Tape Club

Go on, tell 'em what you did with your rebreather... I dare ya!

***jradomski*** · 10th July 2008, 23:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by cramerdn)

So the two controllers should both have back ups? Yeah thats what I need a four battery, four controller, rebreather. Since CO2 hits are an issue why not a back up scrubber? Why only carry one tank each of dil and O2? Probably best to carry 200% of your calculated bailout gas in case of SPG, reg, or tank failures.
A simple secondary PO2 readout? If you have invented this device you really should let the rest of us in on it. Cells have issues, thats why there are three and voting logic. A shearwater or VR3 read the same cells. So you are suggesting we add 3 more cells? So a 6 cell, 4 controller, 4 battery unit, congradulations you have invented the Back Up Rebreather. Folks who need them already dive them.

You mean like the redundancy of having two controllers in slave mode?

WHy 4 controllers?? if they want a backup battery, each controller should have an INDEPENDENT batteries, sharing a battery between multiple sets of electronics is not redundant, a single point of failure is capable of taking everyting out.. I am not advocating everything be independent but those most likely to fail should be.. The minimum robust power system would be an independent isolated powersource for each device then a battery that could be shared for backup..

cells can be successfully isolated so that a failure on one electronics doesnt screw up the other.. 3 cells should be enough to get meaningful data.. a handset/display failure is forseeable so there should be a second way of viewing the data, sorry a hud is not an alternate way its an auxiliary way, its slow, lacks the precision of a digital display, and divers may have issues with identifying the color..

a backup battery should be just that... only used when necessary, and signaled when its been used.. the best power scheme would be to use secondary cells as the primary power source since they are the most predictable, then use a primary cell as a backup.. This is how MOST critical hardware in other industries is designed..

I'm happy as long as I can start a dive with 1 controller and 1 independent monitor, 2 controllers are fine, but the diver needs to be able to determine at all times what the po2 is and not trust blindly, that means a redundant po2 display in whatever form (I wouldnt even mind if it was in a single unit with isolated compartments and wiring so its only 1 pendant)...

10th July 2008, 12:33	#11 (permalink)
cramerdn Obey my dog! Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Townsville QLD Posts: 738	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ...The classic is simple and solid.. There are a few things to look out for but it generally works as designed... Wow what a recomendation. Pretty happy with my Vision that has worked as designed and has worked well. __________________ "Its better to live one day as a tiger than an entire life as a worm." "But who's ever heard of a worm skin rug?"
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10th July 2008, 12:41	#12 (permalink)
jptaylor9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 316	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I also can't believe a piece of life support gear went out the door (and took along time to fix) that lost 17mins per hour.. That should have been caught well before it ever reacheded any divers hands.. Although, as I understand it, it didn't effect the Vision's core life support function as it didn't have any effect on set point monitoring/control. It effected the on-board deco calcs of the Nitrox version, but not the Trimix version which most people purchased (timer ok). Very happy with my Vision, functions well beyond it CE limit!
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10th July 2008, 14:15	#13 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie) yes the cell holders are almost the same Classic: 5 cells and two ports Vision: 4 celss and one port Have fitted my shearwater HUD to both classic and vision. From the Inventor himself! Happy to be put right. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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10th July 2008, 19:55	#14 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9) Although, as I understand it, it didn't effect the Vision's core life support function as it didn't have any effect on set point monitoring/control. It effected the on-board deco calcs of the Nitrox version, but not the Trimix version which most people purchased (timer ok). Very happy with my Vision, functions well beyond it CE limit! But people with NITROX units DID get them.. luckily no one was hurt.. Thats a serious bug.. Most people have had relatively good sucess with the vision electronics, but all the issues with power problems scares the hell out of me for big dives where I really don't want to have to bail to OC.. I think with a truely independent power scheme (or hell add 2 more batteries, and have each controller with a backup), and some option to add even a simple secondary po2 readout, it would be a hell of a rig from the factory... Right now you have to add something like an integrated vr3, explorer, or shearwater to get that level of redundancy.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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10th July 2008, 21:42	#15 (permalink)
cramerdn Obey my dog! Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Townsville QLD Posts: 738	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I think with a truely independent power scheme (or hell add 2 more batteries, and have each controller with a backup), So the two controllers should both have back ups? Yeah thats what I need a four battery, four controller, rebreather. Since CO2 hits are an issue why not a back up scrubber? Why only carry one tank each of dil and O2? Probably best to carry 200% of your calculated bailout gas in case of SPG, reg, or tank failures. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) and some option to add even a simple secondary po2 readout, it would be a hell of a rig from the factory... Right now you have to add something like an integrated vr3, explorer, or shearwater A simple secondary PO2 readout? If you have invented this device you really should let the rest of us in on it. Cells have issues, thats why there are three and voting logic. A shearwater or VR3 read the same cells. So you are suggesting we add 3 more cells? So a 6 cell, 4 controller, 4 battery unit, congradulations you have invented the Back Up Rebreather. Folks who need them already dive them. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) to get that level of redundancy.. You mean like the redundancy of having two controllers in slave mode? __________________ "Its better to live one day as a tiger than an entire life as a worm." "But who's ever heard of a worm skin rug?"
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10th July 2008, 22:17	#16 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,638	Re: Lemon Yellow If one truely believes his unit can not fail, he will not need bailout. If one carries bailout, then he admits the possibility of failure. With the possibility of failure, common sense and risk assessment would logically lead to mitigating the effects of such a failure. The most efficient way to complete a technical rebreather dive is on a rebreather. If the fault can be mitigated and still leave the rebreather functional, you have mitigated the risk in the most efficient manner. If one unit in the market place has had a complete or part electronics failure, then a failure of the electronics is a possibility. One method of mitigating the risks due to electronics failure is to use a backup that can not suffer the faults of the primary. To prevent a fault from transferring from one set of electronics to another, there should be as few components as possible in common. Brent __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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10th July 2008, 22:25	#17 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,638	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) From the Inventor himself! Happy to be put right. Ian indeed conceived the idea. The Classic holder is more clever. The vision one just isnt as funky. There is no need to have a detacheable cell holder on the Vision because of the basket that comes off. Now, you would know the Beanie holder has 5 cell holders on it if you brought round that (and I use the term loosely) "rebreather" of yours. Coz I'd have had to slap one in just to teach you a lesson. And got rid of the choc bloc, insulation tape, duck tape, chewing gum, <singing> and a partridge in a pear tree....... __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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10th July 2008, 22:48	#18 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: Lemon Yellow Ahem! I think you'll find it's "Duct" tape, Mr Thicky! And MY Beanie adapter has 5 holes. So there! Choc block now redundant since soldering iron started working. And you thought you were kidding... (But thanks for reminding me where I left my spanner...) __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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10th July 2008, 23:06	#19 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,638	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Ahem! I think you'll find it's "Duct" tape, Mr Thicky! Ha ha!!! There's only one Duck. The Duck Tape Club Go on, tell 'em what you did with your rebreather... I dare ya! __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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10th July 2008, 23:39	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: Lemon Yellow Quote: (Originally Posted by cramerdn) So the two controllers should both have back ups? Yeah thats what I need a four battery, four controller, rebreather. Since CO2 hits are an issue why not a back up scrubber? Why only carry one tank each of dil and O2? Probably best to carry 200% of your calculated bailout gas in case of SPG, reg, or tank failures. A simple secondary PO2 readout? If you have invented this device you really should let the rest of us in on it. Cells have issues, thats why there are three and voting logic. A shearwater or VR3 read the same cells. So you are suggesting we add 3 more cells? So a 6 cell, 4 controller, 4 battery unit, congradulations you have invented the Back Up Rebreather. Folks who need them already dive them. You mean like the redundancy of having two controllers in slave mode? WHy 4 controllers?? if they want a backup battery, each controller should have an INDEPENDENT batteries, sharing a battery between multiple sets of electronics is not redundant, a single point of failure is capable of taking everyting out.. I am not advocating everything be independent but those most likely to fail should be.. The minimum robust power system would be an independent isolated powersource for each device then a battery that could be shared for backup.. cells can be successfully isolated so that a failure on one electronics doesnt screw up the other.. 3 cells should be enough to get meaningful data.. a handset/display failure is forseeable so there should be a second way of viewing the data, sorry a hud is not an alternate way its an auxiliary way, its slow, lacks the precision of a digital display, and divers may have issues with identifying the color.. a backup battery should be just that... only used when necessary, and signaled when its been used.. the best power scheme would be to use secondary cells as the primary power source since they are the most predictable, then use a primary cell as a backup.. This is how MOST critical hardware in other industries is designed.. I'm happy as long as I can start a dive with 1 controller and 1 independent monitor, 2 controllers are fine, but the diver needs to be able to determine at all times what the po2 is and not trust blindly, that means a redundant po2 display in whatever form (I wouldnt even mind if it was in a single unit with isolated compartments and wiring so its only 1 pendant)... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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