Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system.

sailor · 7th April 2008, 00:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90)

[ok so here you go
basic you get some cable that cost a bomb fitted with some connectors that cost a bomb and a half,
then we take said bomb costing cable and make it into some thing that is worth using, add to this custom connector that cost more than the cable
then add 3 more custom splitters plus cell capping
gold plat the lot and ceal every part of the set up and we are basicly there.
we are not vat reg
so the price you see is the prise you get.
but later this year we will be vat added
regards john
b

In the beginning i was simply asking for some pics from the inside because i'm interested and i'ld like to know what is included.
The pics where denied for despite they could prevent this whole discussion.

AD_ward9 · 7th April 2008, 02:32

Just to add my 2p.

When I buy 2 samples of something from Narked at 90, it costs me a very small fraction of the cost of getting 2 items CNC'd, or assembled.

The last example of this, a cell holder cost me 20 times less buying from Narked at 90, than buying a cell holder from Faringdon Precision Machining. Yes, 20 times! That is what low volume machine set up costs look like. Moreover, that factor of 20 does not include any of the considerable design time that we spent on the part, it is just the machining bill. It does not include any overheads at all.

On low volume items, divers just do not appreciate the love that gives them their toys: it is definitely not a get rich quick scheme.

With this background, you can appreciate how John and Brent get upset if someone thinks the price is top loaded. People need to put themselves in their place, and be realistic about the effort and costs that go into small volume dive products.

Alex

PCDiver · 7th April 2008, 06:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Just to add my 2p.

When I buy 2 samples of something from Narked at 90, it costs me a very small fraction of the cost of getting 2 items CNC'd, or assembled.

The last example of this, a cell holder cost me 20 times less buying from Narked at 90, than buying a cell holder from Faringdon Precision Machining. Yes, 20 times! That is what low volume machine set up costs look like. Moreover, that factor of 20 does not include any of the considerable design time that we spent on the part, it is just the machining bill. It does not include any overheads at all.

On low volume items, divers just do not appreciate the love that gives them their toys: it is definitely not a get rich quick scheme.

With this background, you can appreciate how John and Brent get upset if someone thinks the price is top loaded. People need to put themselves in their place, and be realistic about the effort and costs that go into small volume dive products.

Alex

Alex,

I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference.

AD_ward9 · 7th April 2008, 09:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

Alex,

I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference.

Absolutely agree. I think it was just the tone that caught John's attention. One of the problems with forums: things in print seem much more demanding that a phone call. Perhaps why tax men hardly ever ring people..

John's answer seems to be the price difference is because it costs him more in hidden ways, i.e. he is saying the cost is the time and materials in connections and the bit to connections. Not unreasonable: if I buy a cable with ten connectors I am not surprised when it costs ten or more times that of one with a single connector. Sometimes better for sales guys to say, "Well, very sorry, but that is simply the price I have here. I will pass back your feedback though. (very short pause) How many would you like?"

Alex

Drmike · 7th April 2008, 09:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

Alex,

I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference.

you have the right to ask, but your not a customer. Your someone making snide insinuations woefuly disguissed as a genuine enquiry

which they have the right to react to

and they did

love all kisses and hugs all around - im on a promise tonight

HELL yeh!

Drmike · 7th April 2008, 09:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference.

I have the answer;

In this case as you say there are 3x the number of connectors - so the price understandably is 300% higher

are you trying to put them out of business? are you a rebreatherworld trattor?

...Im gonna tell Ron

PCDiver · 7th April 2008, 11:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

you have the right to ask, but your not a customer.

No? Doesn't buying a fourth cell adapter and cable for VR3 make me a customer?

PCDiver · 7th April 2008, 11:50

BTW. I did some research on the price on the individual components used and based in that price only it is expensive. However if you include the time for the testing, gold plating and sealing, the price is certainly not extravagant. Especially with the high labour costs in Europe.

If they had taken some time to explain what was involved this discussion could have been avoided.

**PhilSiswick** · 7th April 2008, 13:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

BTW. I did some research on the price on the individual components used and based in that price only it is expensive. However if you include the time for the testing, gold plating and sealing, the price is certainly not extravagant. Especially with the high labour costs in Europe.

If they had taken some time to explain what was involved this discussion could have been avoided.

True, but they are not alone in not communicating the drivers for their prices. I remain mystified at the cost of upgrades for the Boris and why Audis cost so much more than VWs, given that they are really the same car

FWIW, I think these are stand-up chaps who've done a lot for the safety of units in general, and the Inspo/Evo family in particular. I've got several of their products and John has sent me a 'special' job today - I don't question what they charge, as I trust them. They also deserve some payback for the investment they have made, as well as the time they spend helping people.

Cheers,

***caveseeker7*** · 7th April 2008, 18:05

IMHO Brent and John have been making an excellent effort designing and building some innovative and, as far as I'm concerned, needed products.

May it be the Beanie cell holder, the Cell Checker, the Deep Pursuit and this backup system, it's only too expensive if you're too cheap.

If you can't afford all good well, I've been there plenty of times, and for many things still am. Quite another to say you don't want to afford it.

Having been around both individual people and businesses that do low volume, labor intensive production I absolutely agree with what has been said above: It's more a labor of love than profit. And consider this: Those who do it have to pay for their bills and toys, too ... leaving them in the same predicament.

There's a reason I drive the Redneck Roadster, not an AM V8 and a Range Rover. I rather doubt John and Brent will be shopping for those anytime soon with the money they make from the cell holders and cables ...

They've done a great job, and deserve to get paid for it, more likely than not better than have been.

7th April 2008, 00:53	#51 (permalink)
sailor RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: UAE Posts: 73	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90) [ok so here you go basic you get some cable that cost a bomb fitted with some connectors that cost a bomb and a half, then we take said bomb costing cable and make it into some thing that is worth using, add to this custom connector that cost more than the cable then add 3 more custom splitters plus cell capping gold plat the lot and ceal every part of the set up and we are basicly there. we are not vat reg so the price you see is the prise you get. but later this year we will be vat added regards john b In the beginning i was simply asking for some pics from the inside because i'm interested and i'ld like to know what is included. The pics where denied for despite they could prevent this whole discussion.
(Offline)

7th April 2008, 02:32	#52 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,016	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Just to add my 2p. When I buy 2 samples of something from Narked at 90, it costs me a very small fraction of the cost of getting 2 items CNC'd, or assembled. The last example of this, a cell holder cost me 20 times less buying from Narked at 90, than buying a cell holder from Faringdon Precision Machining. Yes, 20 times! That is what low volume machine set up costs look like. Moreover, that factor of 20 does not include any of the considerable design time that we spent on the part, it is just the machining bill. It does not include any overheads at all. On low volume items, divers just do not appreciate the love that gives them their toys: it is definitely not a get rich quick scheme. With this background, you can appreciate how John and Brent get upset if someone thinks the price is top loaded. People need to put themselves in their place, and be realistic about the effort and costs that go into small volume dive products. Alex
(Offline)

7th April 2008, 06:59	#53 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Just to add my 2p. When I buy 2 samples of something from Narked at 90, it costs me a very small fraction of the cost of getting 2 items CNC'd, or assembled. The last example of this, a cell holder cost me 20 times less buying from Narked at 90, than buying a cell holder from Faringdon Precision Machining. Yes, 20 times! That is what low volume machine set up costs look like. Moreover, that factor of 20 does not include any of the considerable design time that we spent on the part, it is just the machining bill. It does not include any overheads at all. On low volume items, divers just do not appreciate the love that gives them their toys: it is definitely not a get rich quick scheme. With this background, you can appreciate how John and Brent get upset if someone thinks the price is top loaded. People need to put themselves in their place, and be realistic about the effort and costs that go into small volume dive products. Alex Alex, I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
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7th April 2008, 09:09	#54 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,016	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) Alex, I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference. Absolutely agree. I think it was just the tone that caught John's attention. One of the problems with forums: things in print seem much more demanding that a phone call. Perhaps why tax men hardly ever ring people.. John's answer seems to be the price difference is because it costs him more in hidden ways, i.e. he is saying the cost is the time and materials in connections and the bit to connections. Not unreasonable: if I buy a cable with ten connectors I am not surprised when it costs ten or more times that of one with a single connector. Sometimes better for sales guys to say, "Well, very sorry, but that is simply the price I have here. I will pass back your feedback though. (very short pause) How many would you like?" Alex
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7th April 2008, 09:30	#55 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) Alex, I don't disagree with you, but I think as a customer, we have the right to ask why the price for two very similar items, in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference. you have the right to ask, but your not a customer. Your someone making snide insinuations woefuly disguissed as a genuine enquiry which they have the right to react to and they did love all kisses and hugs all around - im on a promise tonight HELL yeh! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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7th April 2008, 09:32	#56 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) , in this case the cable with one connection and the cable with three connections, has a 300% price difference. I have the answer; In this case as you say there are 3x the number of connectors - so the price understandably is 300% higher are you trying to put them out of business? are you a rebreatherworld trattor? ...Im gonna tell Ron __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 7th April 2008 at 09:34.
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7th April 2008, 11:39	#57 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) you have the right to ask, but your not a customer. No? Doesn't buying a fourth cell adapter and cable for VR3 make me a customer? __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
(Offline)

7th April 2008, 11:50	#58 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. BTW. I did some research on the price on the individual components used and based in that price only it is expensive. However if you include the time for the testing, gold plating and sealing, the price is certainly not extravagant. Especially with the high labour costs in Europe. If they had taken some time to explain what was involved this discussion could have been avoided. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune Last edited by PCDiver : 7th April 2008 at 11:55.
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7th April 2008, 13:26	#59 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,099	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) BTW. I did some research on the price on the individual components used and based in that price only it is expensive. However if you include the time for the testing, gold plating and sealing, the price is certainly not extravagant. Especially with the high labour costs in Europe. If they had taken some time to explain what was involved this discussion could have been avoided. True, but they are not alone in not communicating the drivers for their prices. I remain mystified at the cost of upgrades for the Boris and why Audis cost so much more than VWs, given that they are really the same car FWIW, I think these are stand-up chaps who've done a lot for the safety of units in general, and the Inspo/Evo family in particular. I've got several of their products and John has sent me a 'special' job today - I don't question what they charge, as I trust them. They also deserve some payback for the investment they have made, as well as the time they spend helping people. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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7th April 2008, 18:05	#60 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,560	Re: Inspiration and Evo 3 cell backup system. IMHO Brent and John have been making an excellent effort designing and building some innovative and, as far as I'm concerned, needed products. May it be the Beanie cell holder, the Cell Checker, the Deep Pursuit and this backup system, it's only too expensive if you're too cheap. If you can't afford all good well, I've been there plenty of times, and for many things still am. Quite another to say you don't want to afford it. Having been around both individual people and businesses that do low volume, labor intensive production I absolutely agree with what has been said above: It's more a labor of love than profit. And consider this: Those who do it have to pay for their bills and toys, too ... leaving them in the same predicament. There's a reason I drive the Redneck Roadster, not an AM V8 and a Range Rover. I rather doubt John and Brent will be shopping for those anytime soon with the money they make from the cell holders and cables ... They've done a great job, and deserve to get paid for it, more likely than not better than have been. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 7th April 2008 at 18:07.
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