Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers

colinicky · 9th October 2007, 19:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

I have a KT Frame and its a great piece of equipment but it is significantly heavier than the standard box. One word of caution would be to confirm the weight of the frame and if the difference is a significant issue to take into account between you and your wife. You would not want to solve one problem only to create another.

Hope this info is of value to you.

John

Interesting as my KT frame is one of the 2nd generation ones that only weighs 1kg more than the original yellow case .The newer 3rd generation is lighter as the sides are made out of thinner SS .I believe it is about 1kg lighter than mine .Obviously if you add weight with a frame you can loose it of the belt ! I dive mine with no lead at all whereas with the yellow case I needed 9kg of lead

KENT TOOLING · 9th October 2007, 20:49

Phill

If you can give me a call on this number 01227 700015 i might be able to offer some help with your problem regarding leg hights for your rebreather.

John

jkaterenchuk · 9th October 2007, 21:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

Interesting as my KT frame is one of the 2nd generation ones that only weighs 1kg more than the original yellow case .The newer 3rd generation is lighter as the sides are made out of thinner SS .I believe it is about 1kg lighter than mine .Obviously if you add weight with a frame you can loose it of the belt ! I dive mine with no lead at all whereas with the yellow case I needed 9kg of lead

I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue.

John

colinicky · 9th October 2007, 21:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue.

John

Hi John
I agree with the drastic difference in "percieved " weight but the problem comes (& it took me 2 months to figure it out ) is that the yellow case is plastic which consists of millions of tiny air bubbles which you need a hell of a lot of extra lead for whereas SS obviously is pure weight no air bubbles creating buoyancy . I dont think petite comes into it ,I have a freind who dives twins & she would make a size "0" jealous ! but she needs 10kg of lead to sink ,she is a very confident ,comfortable diver.

***Beanie*** · 10th October 2007, 08:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue.

John

Yep this is true with a SS cases the Inspo case floats SS sinks.

Something like the Ali box might be a better option being less dense.

Another option could be to go Evo case and have a bolt on foot.

**PhilSiswick** · 10th October 2007, 09:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

the legs on mine are approx 9" . I am 5'8" with a 31" inside leg .Mine were made longer so I can sit comfortable with the unit on but no weight on me while kitting up .John has about 4 different lengths as standard but can make any length .
The more important thing is that I have 5 inchs clear between the bottom of the first stages & the base of the frame ,which is relevent to the height difference you need to achieve .this is on a Vision .
The other thing to consider if you need to change counterlungs is divetheworld's quick release system ,so you would only need to pinch the clip rather than stripping everything to change lungs

Thanks for that as well - I'll certainly be talking to John. It looks as if the KT box is an eminently suitable solution, as long as it isn't too heavy for my wife.

I've had a look at the QR system for the lungs. I'll almost certainly be going down that route. I hate taking the wing and lungs off and on after cleaning the unit. What a fiddly job!

Cheers,

**PhilSiswick** · 10th October 2007, 10:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue.

John

Hi John,

Thanks for that feedback - it's something I will need to consider carefully. Thanks also for the idea of putting a sliding sleeve on the Decoweenie frame to cope with the height adjustment - that's an excellent idea. I'll probably keep it in reserve though, as the KT frame looks like a runner right now and offers some more flexibility over the Decoweenie (suit bottle mounting etc).

Cheers,

**PhilSiswick** · 10th October 2007, 10:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by JOHN PERRIN)

Phill

If you can give me a call on this number 01227 700015 i might be able to offer some help with your problem regarding leg hights for your rebreather.

John

Hi John,

Many thanks - I'll be giving you a call in the next couple of days.

Cheers,

**PhilSiswick** · 10th October 2007, 10:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie)

Yep this is true with a SS cases the Inspo case floats SS sinks.

Something like the Ali box might be a better option being less dense.

Another option could be to go Evo case and have a bolt on foot.

I'll be following up on the Ali box as well. I really do like the look of it.

I hadn't thought about an Evo case with a bolt on foot - that's an excellent suggestion. Thanks!

Cheers,

**PhilSiswick** · 5th November 2008, 14:31

I've just realised that it's more than a year since I first started this thread, so it's certainly time for an update. I found a solution to my challenges thanks to two great people:

- Dave (windymiller) who kindly swapped out his Evo bits with my Inspo bits so that I had a unit that would fit my wife
- John (narked@90) who offered me the opportunity to test his prototype Evo stand. The stand was an attractive option, as it is modular and means that I still have the bare Evo to travel with and my wife to dive

After a season of testing and some small changes, I'm very happy to report that the Evo stand is an excellent product (as I expected). John sent it to me early this year, so that I could test it. I returned it to him in August with some small suggestions for changes and got it back in time for my trip to Scapa in October. Apparently, there are some clones knocking about now, ready for others who find that the Evo hurts their back.

A quick photo from last week's Scapa trip is below, showing the stand on my unit (sorry for the slightly filmy picture - the camera was in my housing as the wonderful weather had already destroyed two cameras on the boat!).

Another thing I missed from my Inspo was the handle on the top. I rigged a temporary solution, but to my surprise, a parcel arrived from John one fine day. In it was the prototype handle that you can see at the top of the unit. It's another excellent piece of narked@90 innovation and solves the problem excellently. It is independent from the stand, so can stay on the unit when the stand isn't in use or when it is travelling by air. It's ali, so doesn't help with the top weighting of the Evo, but conversely, doesn't make the empty unit heavier. I can't find it on the website, but I'm sure John will be making them if the demand is there.

Many thanks indeed to John for helping me out with this. Once again, you've delivered the exact solution to my needs. In particular, thanks for your effort and timely responses at a time when you were moving factories and launching so many new products.

Also, thanks to everyone else who offered help with this - a testament to the excellent Rebreather World community.

Cheers,

9th October 2007, 19:07	#11 (permalink)
colinicky RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: uk Posts: 682	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) I have a KT Frame and its a great piece of equipment but it is significantly heavier than the standard box. One word of caution would be to confirm the weight of the frame and if the difference is a significant issue to take into account between you and your wife. You would not want to solve one problem only to create another. Hope this info is of value to you. John Interesting as my KT frame is one of the 2nd generation ones that only weighs 1kg more than the original yellow case .The newer 3rd generation is lighter as the sides are made out of thinner SS .I believe it is about 1kg lighter than mine .Obviously if you add weight with a frame you can loose it of the belt ! I dive mine with no lead at all whereas with the yellow case I needed 9kg of lead __________________ Colin I trust my rebreather completely , I just don't trust the user onwards & downwards
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9th October 2007, 20:49	#12 (permalink)
KENT TOOLING New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: UK Posts: 52	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Phill If you can give me a call on this number 01227 700015 i might be able to offer some help with your problem regarding leg hights for your rebreather. John __________________ John Perrin +44 01227 700015 (Technical Director) KENT TOOLING (Diving Products) www.divingproducts.co.uk Fire & Smoke Damper Manufactures +44 01227 700015 www.tri-prodanpers.co.uk
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9th October 2007, 21:14	#13 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 1,100	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) Interesting as my KT frame is one of the 2nd generation ones that only weighs 1kg more than the original yellow case .The newer 3rd generation is lighter as the sides are made out of thinner SS .I believe it is about 1kg lighter than mine .Obviously if you add weight with a frame you can loose it of the belt ! I dive mine with no lead at all whereas with the yellow case I needed 9kg of lead I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue. John
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9th October 2007, 21:30	#14 (permalink)
colinicky RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: uk Posts: 682	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue. John Hi John I agree with the drastic difference in "percieved " weight but the problem comes (& it took me 2 months to figure it out ) is that the yellow case is plastic which consists of millions of tiny air bubbles which you need a hell of a lot of extra lead for whereas SS obviously is pure weight no air bubbles creating buoyancy . I dont think petite comes into it ,I have a freind who dives twins & she would make a size "0" jealous ! but she needs 10kg of lead to sink ,she is a very confident ,comfortable diver. __________________ Colin I trust my rebreather completely , I just don't trust the user onwards & downwards
(Offline)

10th October 2007, 08:48	#15 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,312	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue. John Yep this is true with a SS cases the Inspo case floats SS sinks. Something like the Ali box might be a better option being less dense. Another option could be to go Evo case and have a bolt on foot. __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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10th October 2007, 09:58	#16 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,099	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) the legs on mine are approx 9" . I am 5'8" with a 31" inside leg .Mine were made longer so I can sit comfortable with the unit on but no weight on me while kitting up .John has about 4 different lengths as standard but can make any length . The more important thing is that I have 5 inchs clear between the bottom of the first stages & the base of the frame ,which is relevent to the height difference you need to achieve .this is on a Vision . The other thing to consider if you need to change counterlungs is divetheworld's quick release system ,so you would only need to pinch the clip rather than stripping everything to change lungs Thanks for that as well - I'll certainly be talking to John. It looks as if the KT box is an eminently suitable solution, as long as it isn't too heavy for my wife. I've had a look at the QR system for the lungs. I'll almost certainly be going down that route. I hate taking the wing and lungs off and on after cleaning the unit. What a fiddly job! Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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10th October 2007, 10:00	#17 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,099	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) I have to admit I have never actually put the two on the scale but given the amount of weight I was able to remove from my belt I would have estimated the difference to be more than 1kg. Regardless, the net result on my trim and remaining weight changed significantly when I moved to the KT Frame from the Yellow Box. I could imagine a scenerio in which a petite spouse whom does not wear much weight now would be severely over weighted when moving to the KT Frame with little option to adjust trim by adding counter weights. The height issue might be resolved only to create a weight and trim issue. John Hi John, Thanks for that feedback - it's something I will need to consider carefully. Thanks also for the idea of putting a sliding sleeve on the Decoweenie frame to cope with the height adjustment - that's an excellent idea. I'll probably keep it in reserve though, as the KT frame looks like a runner right now and offers some more flexibility over the Decoweenie (suit bottle mounting etc). Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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10th October 2007, 10:00	#18 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,099	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by JOHN PERRIN) Phill If you can give me a call on this number 01227 700015 i might be able to offer some help with your problem regarding leg hights for your rebreather. John Hi John, Many thanks - I'll be giving you a call in the next couple of days. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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10th October 2007, 10:16	#19 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,099	Re: Resolving Unit Height Differences for Two Divers Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie) Yep this is true with a SS cases the Inspo case floats SS sinks. Something like the Ali box might be a better option being less dense. Another option could be to go Evo case and have a bolt on foot. I'll be following up on the Ali box as well. I really do like the look of it. I hadn't thought about an Evo case with a bolt on foot - that's an excellent suggestion. Thanks! Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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