Flying your unit manually .

PCDiver · 30th August 2007, 07:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by DaveC)

Unless the electronics fail complete and you can't repair them for a bit. Then knowing how to fly the unit manually still allows you to dive.

We are in the Evo/Inspo forum. With the Vision electronics or the Classic that will NOT work without third party PPO2 monitoring. Unless you can taste the PPO2 but that never worked for me

.

I love those posts that have absolutely no relevance to the unit in question.

silent running · 30th August 2007, 07:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

We are in the Evo/Inspo forum. With the Vision electronics or the Classic that will NOT work without third party PPO2 monitoring. Unless you can taste the PPO2 but that never worked for me

.

Yes Dave and PCD, "that's a bad feature" as my ancient, alcoholic jazz drummer friend would say. You can't dive the Vision manually unless the electroincs are functioning normally, even if it's only the solenoid which has failed, which means manual operation is not any hedge against Vision electronics failure on an expedition. My buddy had his solenoid go and the unit wouldn't let him dive and he was forced onto OC for the remainder of an expensive trip to a far away place, sooo very not cool...

PCDiver · 30th August 2007, 08:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Yes Dave and PCD, "that's a bad feature" as my ancient, alcoholic jazz drummer friend would say. You can't dive the Vision manually unless the electroincs are functioning normally, even if it's only the solenoid which has failed, which means manual operation is not any hedge against Vision electronics failure on an expedition. My buddy had his solenoid go and the unit wouldn't let him dive and he was forced onto OC for the remainder of an expensive trip to a far away place, sooo very not cool...

The Vision is pretty strict when it comes down to failure of components during the pre-dive start up routine.
Examples:
a cell not connected or problems with the wire => no dive
solenoid not working => no dive

Are those justified ... I think so. Those are fundamental components for an ECCR. They have to work correctly, otherwise the system cannot operate as an electronic CCR.

Other units have workarounds that allow the user to operate the rebreather manually. Those workarounds also exist for the Vision, but they do not come standard.

To be honnest, I can't see myself running an ECCR manually without the electronics as a safety net during 2 to 3 hour dives and filming at the same time. So for me the "workaround" needs to include
1. PPO2 monitoring
2. redundant deco computers
3. some sort of leaky O2 valve

silent running · 30th August 2007, 08:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

The Vision is pretty strict when it comes down to failure of components during the pre-dive start up routine.
Examples:
a cell not connected or problems with the wire => no dive
solenoid not working => no dive

Are those justified ... I think so. Those are fundamental components for an ECCR. They have to work correctly, otherwise the system cannot operate as an electronic CCR.

Other units have workarounds that allow the user to operate the rebreather manually. Those workarounds also exist for the Vision, but they do not come standard.

To be honnest, I can't see myself running an ECCR manually without the electronics as a safety net during 2 to 3 hour dives and filming at the same time. So for me the "workaround" needs to include
1. PPO2 monitoring
2. redundant deco computers
3. some sort of leaky O2 valve

Personally, I can't imagine running an ECCR as an MCCR-except when I have no other choice. Either we are regualrly checking our 2dry PO2 and see that our electronics functioning, or we are a lazy, lousy, complacent CCR diver who is asking for trouble. If an ECCR can't be flown without the electronics functioning, then you are simply not equiped to deal with all emergencies, much less a trip to place that does not have fedex.

As for the fundamental parts of the ECCR, I must disagree with you that a solenoid is the same as O2 cells-one you can not do without, the other is merely a convenience and should be treated as such.

I could care less what one calls their CCR-manual or electronic. If it's not flexible enough to handle multiple failure modes, I'm not strapping it on...

Depth-junkie · 30th August 2007, 09:00

This is how i run my inspo vision:-

unit plus inboard gas, plus offboard 3ltr of 02 and 3ltr of 15/50 (15/50 used upto 100m for good high PO2 if needed for semi close ascent to 1st deep bailout bottle on shot line) with whips attached.

vision elecs with a 4th cell and intergrated VR3.

This covers my ass during all my dives for the following failures:-

Soliniod stuck open, close inboard 02 attach offboard 02 via whip and run unit manualy home. This also covers loss of inboard 02 (wether it be high pressure failure etc)

Soliniod stuck closed run unit via inboard 02 manualy home.

The same goes ref loss of DIL as above.

Elecs fail:-

If C1 fails C2 kicks in, i still have hand set and HUD no drama.

If my hand set fails, i can use my VR3 to confirm that the vision elecs are still holding SP (pre-set), along with the HUD.

If my handset fails, along with C1 i can still use my HUD's C2 lights along with the VR3 to make sure C2 is still doing its job (pre-set).

if my hand set fails along with C1 and C2 and HUD, i can use the VR3 and 4th cell to fly it home manualy using the counter lung 02 add inflator.

All the above gives me many options from deep dives to get me home safely. But if i knowingly had a problem at the start of a dive i would not go in. Fix it or dont dive it's as simple as that in my mind.

regardless of where i amy be at the time.

ATB
Gareth

PCDiver · 30th August 2007, 09:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

If it's not flexible enough to handle multiple failure modes, I'm not strapping it on...

The Vision is very failure tolerant DURING the dive (see Gareth's post), but it will not allow you to dive with broken components if those faults are detected BEFORE the dive. Makes sense doesn't it?

Peter

***schford*** · 30th August 2007, 10:44

Let me clarify my thinking for those who have queried it.

I think that as long as you are disciplined and very regularly check your handsets / HUD as appropriate - cross compare them and ensure your PPO2 display is changing and you ALWAYS know your PPO2 then there is nothing wrong with being happy to rely on your electronics, as by always knowing your PPO2 and observing the changes in the display you should spot when something goes wrong in effect you are being the electronics safety net.

I wonder how many people are disciplined enough though - The trouble comes when people are not disciplined they turn on their electronics jump in and trust that it will work and they don't always know their PPO2.

Some peoples mind set and I know it is not everyone's means that they don't always know their PPO2 - it is these people who if they were to fly it manually would be forced to look at their handsets and so ALWAYS know their PPO2 to know how much and when to inject PPO2. You could make the argument that they shouldnt be using a rebreather but the fact is they are and will continue to do so.

With the rules I was trying to make them as simple as possible - the fact is if everyone flew it manually then everyone would be forced to always know their PPO2 so people would not get bitten in the asse.

The underlying fact is that I do not believe that anyone has died whilst flying their unit manually - this really reinforced my belief.

It is an individual preference - the over whelming lesson is to be vigilant what ever you do.

decoweenie · 30th August 2007, 11:28

Speaking as someone has a lot of mCCR hours and back to diving eCCR, you don't have to dive the eCCR unit manually - just check your PO2 as if you are.

Tino de Rijk · 30th August 2007, 18:18

I can follow your reasoning, Stuart, and within that reasoning I agree.

BUT (my personal opion, nothing more...): if you are not disciplined enough to regularly monitor your PO2, and need this "trick" of having to drive it manually to do that (in effect STILL forcing you to monitor your PO2 very regularly) - what the hell are you doing than diving a CCR (ECCR or MCCR, doesn't matter!) in the 1st place....? (I of course don't mean you personally, Stuart, but in general).

Your (very correct) bottom line conclusion is: always know your PO2. Goes for mCCR as well as eCCR. If you can master that all important little trick, and can battle your creeping up complacency being spoilt diving a good functioning ECCR, there is no reason at all to burden yourself ignoring the luxury of the ECCR electronics. If you can't be that disciplined - go back to OC, as xCCR is not for you.
I dive Inspo's now for 10 years, I love all the bells & whistles (HUD etc.) - but STILL monitor my PO2 every 1-2 minutes or so, while breathing so I can see the cell values move (another often made complacency error: "seeing a meaningfull number = o.k." - wrong!).

Might sound harsh, but I truly believe in it. Complacency kills, on MCCR or ECCR. I saw a mate almost drown on an MCCR on the surface due to that. The unit was o.k., HE was (self admitted) "the weakest link".... All in all I've lost 4 CCR divers I knew very close, so I kind of know the black side of it....

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Let me clarify my thinking for those who have queried it.

I think that as long as you are disciplined and very regularly check your handsets / HUD as appropriate - cross compare them and ensure your PPO2 display is changing and you ALWAYS know your PPO2 then there is nothing wrong with being happy to rely on your electronics, as by always knowing your PPO2 and observing the changes in the display you should spot when something goes wrong in effect you are being the electronics safety net.

I wonder how many people are disciplined enough though - The trouble comes when people are not disciplined they turn on their electronics jump in and trust that it will work and they don't always know their PPO2.

Some peoples mind set and I know it is not everyone's means that they don't always know their PPO2 - it is these people who if they were to fly it manually would be forced to look at their handsets and so ALWAYS know their PPO2 to know how much and when to inject PPO2. You could make the argument that they shouldnt be using a rebreather but the fact is they are and will continue to do so.

With the rules I was trying to make them as simple as possible - the fact is if everyone flew it manually then everyone would be forced to always know their PPO2 so people would not get bitten in the asse.

The underlying fact is that I do not believe that anyone has died whilst flying their unit manually - this really reinforced my belief.

It is an individual preference - the over whelming lesson is to be vigilant what ever you do.

silent running · 30th August 2007, 18:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

The Vision is very failure tolerant DURING the dive (see Gareth's post), but it will not allow you to dive with broken components if those faults are detected BEFORE the dive. Makes sense doesn't it?

Peter

Sorry Peter, I must disagree with you. No it doesn't make sense to me to have a very expensive trip ruined because of a solenoid failure. Would you cancel a car trip just because your cruise control stopped working? I wouldn't, and I certainly wouldn't like the car talking back to me, telling me I couldn't start it because one non-crucial component stopped working.

Whatever the reasons for APD setting up the unit this way-liability/idiot proofing-from a user standpoint, it amounts to nannying. And aren't we as CCR divers supposed to be more self-reliant rather than less so? Flying a unit manually is certainly not rocket science and I think it's ridiculous that after all that training, APD don't think you can dive the unit without the solenoid.

Sorry for the rant guys, but I have been witness to this problem first hand and had to watch my buddy stew for days after having his trip ruined, not the right way to spend your vacation....

30th August 2007, 07:18	#41 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by DaveC) Unless the electronics fail complete and you can't repair them for a bit. Then knowing how to fly the unit manually still allows you to dive. We are in the Evo/Inspo forum. With the Vision electronics or the Classic that will NOT work without third party PPO2 monitoring. Unless you can taste the PPO2 but that never worked for me . I love those posts that have absolutely no relevance to the unit in question. Last edited by PCDiver : 30th August 2007 at 07:23.
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30th August 2007, 07:35	#42 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) We are in the Evo/Inspo forum. With the Vision electronics or the Classic that will NOT work without third party PPO2 monitoring. Unless you can taste the PPO2 but that never worked for me . Yes Dave and PCD, "that's a bad feature" as my ancient, alcoholic jazz drummer friend would say. You can't dive the Vision manually unless the electroincs are functioning normally, even if it's only the solenoid which has failed, which means manual operation is not any hedge against Vision electronics failure on an expedition. My buddy had his solenoid go and the unit wouldn't let him dive and he was forced onto OC for the remainder of an expensive trip to a far away place, sooo very not cool...
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30th August 2007, 08:08	#43 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Yes Dave and PCD, "that's a bad feature" as my ancient, alcoholic jazz drummer friend would say. You can't dive the Vision manually unless the electroincs are functioning normally, even if it's only the solenoid which has failed, which means manual operation is not any hedge against Vision electronics failure on an expedition. My buddy had his solenoid go and the unit wouldn't let him dive and he was forced onto OC for the remainder of an expensive trip to a far away place, sooo very not cool... The Vision is pretty strict when it comes down to failure of components during the pre-dive start up routine. Examples: a cell not connected or problems with the wire => no dive solenoid not working => no dive Are those justified ... I think so. Those are fundamental components for an ECCR. They have to work correctly, otherwise the system cannot operate as an electronic CCR. Other units have workarounds that allow the user to operate the rebreather manually. Those workarounds also exist for the Vision, but they do not come standard. To be honnest, I can't see myself running an ECCR manually without the electronics as a safety net during 2 to 3 hour dives and filming at the same time. So for me the "workaround" needs to include 1. PPO2 monitoring 2. redundant deco computers 3. some sort of leaky O2 valve
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30th August 2007, 08:31	#44 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) The Vision is pretty strict when it comes down to failure of components during the pre-dive start up routine. Examples: a cell not connected or problems with the wire => no dive solenoid not working => no dive Are those justified ... I think so. Those are fundamental components for an ECCR. They have to work correctly, otherwise the system cannot operate as an electronic CCR. Other units have workarounds that allow the user to operate the rebreather manually. Those workarounds also exist for the Vision, but they do not come standard. To be honnest, I can't see myself running an ECCR manually without the electronics as a safety net during 2 to 3 hour dives and filming at the same time. So for me the "workaround" needs to include 1. PPO2 monitoring 2. redundant deco computers 3. some sort of leaky O2 valve Personally, I can't imagine running an ECCR as an MCCR-except when I have no other choice. Either we are regualrly checking our 2dry PO2 and see that our electronics functioning, or we are a lazy, lousy, complacent CCR diver who is asking for trouble. If an ECCR can't be flown without the electronics functioning, then you are simply not equiped to deal with all emergencies, much less a trip to place that does not have fedex. As for the fundamental parts of the ECCR, I must disagree with you that a solenoid is the same as O2 cells-one you can not do without, the other is merely a convenience and should be treated as such. I could care less what one calls their CCR-manual or electronic. If it's not flexible enough to handle multiple failure modes, I'm not strapping it on...
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30th August 2007, 09:00	#45 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Flying your unit manually . This is how i run my inspo vision:- unit plus inboard gas, plus offboard 3ltr of 02 and 3ltr of 15/50 (15/50 used upto 100m for good high PO2 if needed for semi close ascent to 1st deep bailout bottle on shot line) with whips attached. vision elecs with a 4th cell and intergrated VR3. This covers my ass during all my dives for the following failures:- Soliniod stuck open, close inboard 02 attach offboard 02 via whip and run unit manualy home. This also covers loss of inboard 02 (wether it be high pressure failure etc) Soliniod stuck closed run unit via inboard 02 manualy home. The same goes ref loss of DIL as above. Elecs fail:- If C1 fails C2 kicks in, i still have hand set and HUD no drama. If my hand set fails, i can use my VR3 to confirm that the vision elecs are still holding SP (pre-set), along with the HUD. If my handset fails, along with C1 i can still use my HUD's C2 lights along with the VR3 to make sure C2 is still doing its job (pre-set). if my hand set fails along with C1 and C2 and HUD, i can use the VR3 and 4th cell to fly it home manualy using the counter lung 02 add inflator. All the above gives me many options from deep dives to get me home safely. But if i knowingly had a problem at the start of a dive i would not go in. Fix it or dont dive it's as simple as that in my mind. regardless of where i amy be at the time. ATB Gareth Last edited by Depth-junkie : 30th August 2007 at 12:34.
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30th August 2007, 09:21	#46 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) If it's not flexible enough to handle multiple failure modes, I'm not strapping it on... The Vision is very failure tolerant DURING the dive (see Gareth's post), but it will not allow you to dive with broken components if those faults are detected BEFORE the dive. Makes sense doesn't it? Peter
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30th August 2007, 10:44	#47 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Flying your unit manually . Let me clarify my thinking for those who have queried it. I think that as long as you are disciplined and very regularly check your handsets / HUD as appropriate - cross compare them and ensure your PPO2 display is changing and you ALWAYS know your PPO2 then there is nothing wrong with being happy to rely on your electronics, as by always knowing your PPO2 and observing the changes in the display you should spot when something goes wrong in effect you are being the electronics safety net. I wonder how many people are disciplined enough though - The trouble comes when people are not disciplined they turn on their electronics jump in and trust that it will work and they don't always know their PPO2. Some peoples mind set and I know it is not everyone's means that they don't always know their PPO2 - it is these people who if they were to fly it manually would be forced to look at their handsets and so ALWAYS know their PPO2 to know how much and when to inject PPO2. You could make the argument that they shouldnt be using a rebreather but the fact is they are and will continue to do so. With the rules I was trying to make them as simple as possible - the fact is if everyone flew it manually then everyone would be forced to always know their PPO2 so people would not get bitten in the asse. The underlying fact is that I do not believe that anyone has died whilst flying their unit manually - this really reinforced my belief. It is an individual preference - the over whelming lesson is to be vigilant what ever you do. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use Last edited by schford : 30th August 2007 at 12:38.
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30th August 2007, 11:28	#48 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Flying your unit manually . Speaking as someone has a lot of mCCR hours and back to diving eCCR, you don't have to dive the eCCR unit manually - just check your PO2 as if you are. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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30th August 2007, 18:18	#49 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: Flying your unit manually . I can follow your reasoning, Stuart, and within that reasoning I agree. BUT (my personal opion, nothing more...): if you are not disciplined enough to regularly monitor your PO2, and need this "trick" of having to drive it manually to do that (in effect STILL forcing you to monitor your PO2 very regularly) - what the hell are you doing than diving a CCR (ECCR or MCCR, doesn't matter!) in the 1st place....? (I of course don't mean you personally, Stuart, but in general). Your (very correct) bottom line conclusion is: always know your PO2. Goes for mCCR as well as eCCR. If you can master that all important little trick, and can battle your creeping up complacency being spoilt diving a good functioning ECCR, there is no reason at all to burden yourself ignoring the luxury of the ECCR electronics. If you can't be that disciplined - go back to OC, as xCCR is not for you. I dive Inspo's now for 10 years, I love all the bells & whistles (HUD etc.) - but STILL monitor my PO2 every 1-2 minutes or so, while breathing so I can see the cell values move (another often made complacency error: "seeing a meaningfull number = o.k." - wrong!). Might sound harsh, but I truly believe in it. Complacency kills, on MCCR or ECCR. I saw a mate almost drown on an MCCR on the surface due to that. The unit was o.k., HE was (self admitted) "the weakest link".... All in all I've lost 4 CCR divers I knew very close, so I kind of know the black side of it.... Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Let me clarify my thinking for those who have queried it. I think that as long as you are disciplined and very regularly check your handsets / HUD as appropriate - cross compare them and ensure your PPO2 display is changing and you ALWAYS know your PPO2 then there is nothing wrong with being happy to rely on your electronics, as by always knowing your PPO2 and observing the changes in the display you should spot when something goes wrong in effect you are being the electronics safety net. I wonder how many people are disciplined enough though - The trouble comes when people are not disciplined they turn on their electronics jump in and trust that it will work and they don't always know their PPO2. Some peoples mind set and I know it is not everyone's means that they don't always know their PPO2 - it is these people who if they were to fly it manually would be forced to look at their handsets and so ALWAYS know their PPO2 to know how much and when to inject PPO2. You could make the argument that they shouldnt be using a rebreather but the fact is they are and will continue to do so. With the rules I was trying to make them as simple as possible - the fact is if everyone flew it manually then everyone would be forced to always know their PPO2 so people would not get bitten in the asse. The underlying fact is that I do not believe that anyone has died whilst flying their unit manually - this really reinforced my belief. It is an individual preference - the over whelming lesson is to be vigilant what ever you do. Last edited by Tino de Rijk : 30th August 2007 at 19:02.
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30th August 2007, 18:27	#50 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) The Vision is very failure tolerant DURING the dive (see Gareth's post), but it will not allow you to dive with broken components if those faults are detected BEFORE the dive. Makes sense doesn't it? Peter Sorry Peter, I must disagree with you. No it doesn't make sense to me to have a very expensive trip ruined because of a solenoid failure. Would you cancel a car trip just because your cruise control stopped working? I wouldn't, and I certainly wouldn't like the car talking back to me, telling me I couldn't start it because one non-crucial component stopped working. Whatever the reasons for APD setting up the unit this way-liability/idiot proofing-from a user standpoint, it amounts to nannying. And aren't we as CCR divers supposed to be more self-reliant rather than less so? Flying a unit manually is certainly not rocket science and I think it's ridiculous that after all that training, APD don't think you can dive the unit without the solenoid. Sorry for the rant guys, but I have been witness to this problem first hand and had to watch my buddy stew for days after having his trip ruined, not the right way to spend your vacation....
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