Flying your unit manually .

**Fun Under Pressure** · 29th August 2007, 08:53

I have think about it for a few minutes and think that i have bought an eCCR and so used the electronics. But i bought a shearwater gf too and connect him to my classic. Because i don´t trust my eCCR. On every dive i hear at all noises from my back. The shearwater give me the safe to fly the unit manually when the electronics have a problem (what ever).
For me this is a mix to do safe dive´s with an eCCR. (Bailout,etc.)

Cheers Markku

Campbell · 29th August 2007, 08:56

When diving I allow the electronics to maintain my set-point, that's why I bought an ECCR.
But to maintain skills etc I always run the unit manually on deco, this allows me to run a slightly richer mix on deco for added safety and also I find it easier to do it manually to maintain better buoyancy control.
I am still learning on the unit (9 months now) but It feels comfortable for me to do it that way.

I can clearly hear the solenoid kicking in during the dive. So it's something I listen for during the dive.

HTH

JC

colinicky · 29th August 2007, 09:22

Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago

. On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change !

So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset

Boy was there a lot of deco !

& no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid

Depth-junkie · 29th August 2007, 09:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago

. On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change !

So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset

Boy was there a lot of deco !

& no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid

Just because you run the unit via the controllers (as do most) it does nor mean you can forget to look at the hands ets. 1 whole hour thats bad form m8 (not that you will need to be told)

I regulary dive in cold 5c water and i can still hear the soliniod firing, even so a extra long fire prompts me to look at the handset.

I check every 2 mins or so on the bottom, thats one thing i realy like about the vision, its straped to my wrist so it is usualy just a quick flick of my eyes over to my wrist, watch the no.s move up and down with the next fire of the soliniod and aways you go. Takes all of about 5 secs to check.

And on ascent its even better as the display is right in front of you if your using a reel and bag or shot/deco station. so no groping around for the handsets.

ATB
Gareth

Dutchy · 29th August 2007, 09:54

a solenoid can fail
a battery can be bad
you can be out of oxygen
a computer can hang
a computer can make a wrong decision (because flawed program)

All reasons why you should know your pPO2 yourself. Injecting yourself makes you have this good habit of being aware. (If you can train yourself in another fashion to check regularly ALWAYS then fine)
Doing this makes the electronics the safety net for the user rather than the other way around.

I'd like to add this to my KISS as well. Something that starts injecting when pPO2<.5 is all I require. It should never ever fire except for on the surface immediately after switching on.

Drmike · 29th August 2007, 10:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago

. On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change !

So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset

Boy was there a lot of deco !

& no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid

Good post. its good to highlight why no matter how fancy electronics you have you should always check that handsettoo to see the actuall cell outputs.

I refer to my hud all the time when busy but I check my secondary and primary display regularly primarily to check they are still working! and to cross check outputs.

Thanks for sharing your experience

Mark Chase · 29th August 2007, 11:06

Having flown my ECCR manually on a couple of occasions when the hand sets failed I can say its very easy to do but (IMHO) detracts from the enjoyment of the dive. Why any one would spend so much money on a ECCR and then fly it manually i have no idea. Get a Revo Copis or a KISS they do a lot better job of being flown manually.

I note several jammed solenoid issues on the Meg. Meg divers are trained to fly manually and use the solenoid as a safety net. So the failures suggest to me...

1: they were not doing a good job of flying manually as the solenoid fired

2: When it did fire, it failed

So it begs the question does the long periods of inactivity for the solenoid result in a sticky piston and subsequent failure?

Never had any issue with the Inspo Classic Solenoid it just did its job. PP02 printouts of a dive on the Classic or the Hammer head are a lot more constant than when i run my KISS on manual so it also begs the question as to whats good / bad about that.

As an aside: My old HUD showed me set point within a range so it would be flashing green below set point 1 and there is no way I could do a dive on low set point my mistake. My new HUD actually shows set point. Personally I preferred the Uri unit to my new HUD but they both do the job as a primary display.

ATB

Mark Chase

Nicholas von Rosen · 29th August 2007, 11:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

& no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid

Just press the ADV to your ear, and you will be able to hear it... - I have tinitus, - and can't hear it normally, but this works for me

By the way: Being the lazy type means my ECCR takes care of the setpoint (offcourse chekking every 3-5 min.)

Nick

Tino de Rijk · 29th August 2007, 15:18

Yes, but as mentioned before, that is a failure mode for which you should have the skills to deal with anyway. In normal operation, why act as a human solenoid...? You're cheaper off buying a KISS.....
Of all the failure modes anyway, solenoid failures are quite low on my urgency list, because (assuming the rest of the electronics are still ok, i.e. not frozen, so cells still move while you breath in & out) it is SO easy to spot & remedy quickly. there's the display, the HUD, and the buzzer to warn you if you didn't look at your handsets regularly in case of a solenoid stuck closed. Take into accounts it takes MANY minutes for the setpoint to drop from 1.3 all the way to 0.4 where the buzzer goes off. HUD's indicate you far earlier (slow blink). Similarly, a stuck open is also indicated quite fast by handsets, HUD and buzzer, and corrected in seconds.

So I have the samer approach as the previous writer: it is a usefull skill, and one you should master & keep up-to-date, by practicing it regularly (just switch to low SP and keep it up manually). Practicing in my book also means: keeping it o.k. during ascent and decent, which is slightly harder (especially ascent). But once you're into that drill, it is an easy thing to pull off, actually also quite relaxing and fun on boring dives, and also a nice test if you can handle a high taskload of you deliberately combine it with other things, e.g. launching an SMB, or making photographs. As you have a safety net, it's a safe drill!

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by DepthCharge)

Unless the solenoid fails to fire.......................

***Decodiver*** · 29th August 2007, 15:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky)

Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago

. On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change !

So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset

Boy was there a lot of deco !

& no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid

This is a good real-life demonstration of the short comings of 'at set-point HUDs'.

I have never liked the Vision HUD for this reason and think it is also not ideal on the Boris.

Fortunately, like Mike, I frequently cross reference between primary and secondary so would pick up on this straight away, but I do like the actual PPO2 HUDs like the Smithers code or Shearwater have.

Also great for an instant PPO2 check on a student, just look at the reflection in the mask or swim above them.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

29th August 2007, 08:53	#21 (permalink)
Fun Under Pressure Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 811	Re: Flying your unit manually . I have think about it for a few minutes and think that i have bought an eCCR and so used the electronics. But i bought a shearwater gf too and connect him to my classic. Because i don´t trust my eCCR. On every dive i hear at all noises from my back. The shearwater give me the safe to fly the unit manually when the electronics have a problem (what ever). For me this is a mix to do safe dive´s with an eCCR. (Bailout,etc.) Cheers Markku
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29th August 2007, 08:56	#22 (permalink)
Campbell RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 116	Re: Flying your unit manually . When diving I allow the electronics to maintain my set-point, that's why I bought an ECCR. But to maintain skills etc I always run the unit manually on deco, this allows me to run a slightly richer mix on deco for added safety and also I find it easier to do it manually to maintain better buoyancy control. I am still learning on the unit (9 months now) but It feels comfortable for me to do it that way. I can clearly hear the solenoid kicking in during the dive. So it's something I listen for during the dive. HTH JC __________________
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29th August 2007, 09:22	#23 (permalink)
colinicky RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: uk Posts: 682	Re: Flying your unit manually . Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago . On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change ! So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset Boy was there a lot of deco ! & no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid __________________ Colin I trust my rebreather completely , I just don't trust the user onwards & downwards
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29th August 2007, 09:51	#24 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago . On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change ! So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset Boy was there a lot of deco ! & no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid Just because you run the unit via the controllers (as do most) it does nor mean you can forget to look at the hands ets. 1 whole hour thats bad form m8 (not that you will need to be told) I regulary dive in cold 5c water and i can still hear the soliniod firing, even so a extra long fire prompts me to look at the handset. I check every 2 mins or so on the bottom, thats one thing i realy like about the vision, its straped to my wrist so it is usualy just a quick flick of my eyes over to my wrist, watch the no.s move up and down with the next fire of the soliniod and aways you go. Takes all of about 5 secs to check. And on ascent its even better as the display is right in front of you if your using a reel and bag or shot/deco station. so no groping around for the handsets. ATB Gareth
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29th August 2007, 09:54	#25 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: Flying your unit manually . a solenoid can fail a battery can be bad you can be out of oxygen a computer can hang a computer can make a wrong decision (because flawed program) All reasons why you should know your pPO2 yourself. Injecting yourself makes you have this good habit of being aware. (If you can train yourself in another fashion to check regularly ALWAYS then fine) Doing this makes the electronics the safety net for the user rather than the other way around. I'd like to add this to my KISS as well. Something that starts injecting when pPO2<.5 is all I require. It should never ever fire except for on the surface immediately after switching on. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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29th August 2007, 10:35	#26 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago . On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change ! So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset Boy was there a lot of deco ! & no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid Good post. its good to highlight why no matter how fancy electronics you have you should always check that handsettoo to see the actuall cell outputs. I refer to my hud all the time when busy but I check my secondary and primary display regularly primarily to check they are still working! and to cross check outputs. Thanks for sharing your experience __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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29th August 2007, 11:06	#27 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,867	Re: Flying your unit manually . Having flown my ECCR manually on a couple of occasions when the hand sets failed I can say its very easy to do but (IMHO) detracts from the enjoyment of the dive. Why any one would spend so much money on a ECCR and then fly it manually i have no idea. Get a Revo Copis or a KISS they do a lot better job of being flown manually. I note several jammed solenoid issues on the Meg. Meg divers are trained to fly manually and use the solenoid as a safety net. So the failures suggest to me... 1: they were not doing a good job of flying manually as the solenoid fired 2: When it did fire, it failed So it begs the question does the long periods of inactivity for the solenoid result in a sticky piston and subsequent failure? Never had any issue with the Inspo Classic Solenoid it just did its job. PP02 printouts of a dive on the Classic or the Hammer head are a lot more constant than when i run my KISS on manual so it also begs the question as to whats good / bad about that. As an aside: My old HUD showed me set point within a range so it would be flashing green below set point 1 and there is no way I could do a dive on low set point my mistake. My new HUD actually shows set point. Personally I preferred the Uri unit to my new HUD but they both do the job as a primary display. ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
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29th August 2007, 11:31	#28 (permalink)
Nicholas von Rosen RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Helsingoer, Denmark Posts: 153	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) & no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid Just press the ADV to your ear, and you will be able to hear it... - I have tinitus, - and can't hear it normally, but this works for me By the way: Being the lazy type means my ECCR takes care of the setpoint (offcourse chekking every 3-5 min.) Nick __________________ NICK
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29th August 2007, 15:18	#29 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: Flying your unit manually . Yes, but as mentioned before, that is a failure mode for which you should have the skills to deal with anyway. In normal operation, why act as a human solenoid...? You're cheaper off buying a KISS..... Of all the failure modes anyway, solenoid failures are quite low on my urgency list, because (assuming the rest of the electronics are still ok, i.e. not frozen, so cells still move while you breath in & out) it is SO easy to spot & remedy quickly. there's the display, the HUD, and the buzzer to warn you if you didn't look at your handsets regularly in case of a solenoid stuck closed. Take into accounts it takes MANY minutes for the setpoint to drop from 1.3 all the way to 0.4 where the buzzer goes off. HUD's indicate you far earlier (slow blink). Similarly, a stuck open is also indicated quite fast by handsets, HUD and buzzer, and corrected in seconds. So I have the samer approach as the previous writer: it is a usefull skill, and one you should master & keep up-to-date, by practicing it regularly (just switch to low SP and keep it up manually). Practicing in my book also means: keeping it o.k. during ascent and decent, which is slightly harder (especially ascent). But once you're into that drill, it is an easy thing to pull off, actually also quite relaxing and fun on boring dives, and also a nice test if you can handle a high taskload of you deliberately combine it with other things, e.g. launching an SMB, or making photographs. As you have a safety net, it's a safe drill! Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by DepthCharge) Unless the solenoid fails to fire.......................
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29th August 2007, 15:30	#30 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,194	Re: Flying your unit manually . Quote: (Originally Posted by colinicky) Just a point from personal experience 2 weeks ago . On the Vision you have a hud so my unit is set up for auto switch of set point at 20m on descent ,at this point the hud flashs to tell you the po2 is below set point untill O2 is injected .This always gets my attention & I then check the handsets to double check it is up to set point but if for any reason the setpoint is changed back to low set point during the dive (in my case it was a sticking button ) there is no flashing from the hud to alert you of this change ! So guess who's Vision changed back to low setpoint & who did a 35m dive of 1 hour on low set point because he relied on the hud & never checked his handset Boy was there a lot of deco ! & no with a 5mm hood on I cannot hear the solenoid This is a good real-life demonstration of the short comings of 'at set-point HUDs'. I have never liked the Vision HUD for this reason and think it is also not ideal on the Boris. Fortunately, like Mike, I frequently cross reference between primary and secondary so would pick up on this straight away, but I do like the actual PPO2 HUDs like the Smithers code or Shearwater have. Also great for an instant PPO2 check on a student, just look at the reflection in the mask or swim above them. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions Last edited by Decodiver : 29th August 2007 at 15:44.
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