What a pain in the butt - installing a new

Tino de Rijk · 13th August 2007, 11:56

Sorry to say, but instead of complaining a lot, and destroying some of your gear in the process, one simple phonecall to APD or SDS would have gotten you an ADV disassembly/assembly instruction manual, completely with lots of detail photo's and instructions, free of charge - as has been mentioned dozens of times also here on this forum (that's what the "search" function is for...).

If you can still rotate the iron part after thightening, you basically destroyed the ABS housing of the ADV, and that will cause it to leak, and will render it very vulnerable to e.g. damaging the membrane. The reason is over-tightening - very clearly warned against in the manual, incl. ways to avoid it. Don't blame APD, just look in the mirror. And don't dive it in this condition, as the risk of a loop flood is real.

As to your hose fitting remark: as many remarked before me, the thread used is (dive-)industry standard 3/8 " (of 7/16 on HP ports), so nothing "special APD".
If you start "repairing" vital parts like the ADV without prior knowledge or instructions, you will IMHO opion very soon hurt yourself. I never touch anything 1st or 2nd stage like without an instruction manual.

The reason APD uses a special, bigger bore connector for the AutoAir (and only for that one), is also for a good reason: it is supposed to act as a full-blown backup regulator, and as such needs to be able to deliver the flow capacity to do that, also at depth. Normal inflator couplings "only" have to suppy the flow to inflate a wing or BC or drysuit - quite a limited flow. In fact, a high flow would just impose a risk for that specific purpose.
So there are good reasons for APD to do this, other than just wanting to cause a pain in the butt...

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry)

The hose assembly that came with the Atomic - the quick connect would not fit onto the Buddy Air. The Atomic has a feature that allows the end of the hose to be disassembled and re-installed on other type hoses. Not so with the Buddy Air hose though.

The threaded end of the Atomic would not fit into the manifold bar properly, and I am sure resultied in this experience:

Machining/fabricating an adapter seemed to solve the problem.

But now another problem:
Upon replacing the hose to the ADV - the stainless bar/valve inside the ADV spins when when tightening the allen screw on the outside of the unit.

I some positions it freeflows- in some positions the the ADV 'button' does not work when pressed - it does not inject dil.

What is the proper way to setup, adjust, and test the ADV?

Popsmoke

Terry · 13th August 2007, 18:58

Tino -

Why are you trying to be so abrasive and caustic?
I get your point.
You make yourself sound like a know it all with 20-20 hindsight.

I'm sorry I didnt do a seach on tighting banjo screws and download and read all the manuals - okay?
I now have the manual you wrote in 2006 because someone was nice enough to forward it - I didnt even know it existed untill now.

The reason for these forums are for sharing informantion and experience rather than ascerbic put-downs and 'go do a search'. You may be knowledgeable but you dont come off real well.
Frankly - I would have rather heard what you had to say in a constructive contributing manner.

Sheesh,

Popsmoke

Tino de Rijk · 13th August 2007, 21:09

I had first written a "caustic" reply back, then deleted it, as it does not contribute to anything.
If you think I only have 20-20 hindsight: it's a free world, so you're entitled to your opinion.
I work through listening to, and reading from many guys FAR more knowledgeable than I am (quite a lot on this list, like Joe Radomski, or the guys at the APD factory), before I vent an opinion in public, accusing a vendor in the process. Call me old-fashioned....
And no, I don't work for APD. I just happen to like them & write technical manuals for fun; that's all.

BTW: make sure you have the latest version of the ADV manual. The unit was slightly changed after June 2006 (an O-ring was added; see my other fairly recent post somewhere on this forum). Otherwise you're still looking at a leak after following the instructions in the old(er) manual, because you're missing an extra O-ring added to the house opposite the banjo...

That's why I recommend asking the manual from the factory, so you know you have the most recent version.

Ciao, and safe diving,

Tino.

PeteS · 13th August 2007, 21:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry)

Did everybody else know that all the hoses on the Inspiration are non-standard or am I the only one? This means if you are on a dive trip and bust a host or strip out some threads you have to call England for a replacement - the dive trip is over.

This would be the same as complaining that the pistons in your GM car engine don't fit in a Ford.....

If you want spares or information ask SDS or the factory. A phone call sorts it all.

Terry · 13th August 2007, 22:57

Thanks for your thoughtful replies -

The ending to this is:

I guess I was venting regarding the non-standard hoses - I anyone does not believe me please PM me. I will be more than happy to take some pictures of the Atomic hoses next to the AP hoses up close to illustrate what I am talking about.

One thing to bear in mind - this occured because I unscrewed the banjo retaining screw to remove that hose. Upon retightening that screw I noticed the ADV body rotating inside the T piece. The ADV body rotated perhaps one or two times before I stopped and seeked advice. I noticed that the ADV Lever was not against the diaphram seat. I spun the ADV valve a partial turn to re-seat the lever and the ADV seemed to work as expected. I was not trying to disassemble or perform maintenance the ADV in any way.

Joe was nice enough to forward Tino's ADV maintenance manual- it did help to diagnose the issue and identify a resolution.

I talked with Ed over at AP and walked him through the problem. Ed recommeded a replacement set to include T piece, diaphram, and locking rings, also, the proper tools to perform this maintenance. I feel that I am quite capable of removing the T piece, removing the ADV body, and reinstalling them in new T piece along with a new diaphram.

So there it is ...
As it is right now, the ADV seems to work properly when neg pressure is provided across the T and when the diaphram is depressed. The unit holds neg and pos pressure fine. The ADV valve is tight in its seat and does nto free rotate, however as speculated, since it has indeed rotated, it has rounded off it's seat and thus needs to be replaced.
As an ADV valve is a convenience and is really not needed to dive I can just pull the ADV shut-off and remove it from the system and fly the unit on manual dil inject - no problem there.

The diaphram on the ADV will be replaced as a matter of prudence because the ADV Lever sort of poked into it. Though it held pos and neg pressure.

If anyone is interested after all this, I will post my experience in replacing the T, ADV body, and Diaphram.

Phew.... sorry for the epic.

Tino de Rijk · 14th August 2007, 08:09

The shut-off valve only protects you against freeflow problems.
It will not protect you against a damaged diaphragm - it will flood big-time if the diaphragm leaks. As such it is not just a convenience, but if broken also a risk. That is also why it sits behind a relatively thick protective cover.
So at any suspicion of a damaged diaphragm, whatever the cause (and there is really only one likely cause; the one you described) - replace it!

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry)

As an ADV valve is a convenience and is really not needed to dive I can just pull the ADV shut-off and remove it from the system and fly the unit on manual dil inject - no problem there.

The diaphram on the ADV will be replaced as a matter of prudence because the ADV Lever sort of poked into it. Though it held pos and neg pressure.

***jradomski*** · 14th August 2007, 08:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

The shut-off valve only protects you against freeflow problems.
It will not protect you against a damaged diaphragm - it will flood big-time if the diaphragm leaks. As such it is not just a convenience, but if broken also a risk. That is also why it sits behind a relatively thick protective cover.
So at any suspicion of a damaged diaphragm, whatever the cause (and there is really only one likely cause; the one you described) - replace it!

Ciao,

Tino.

I think someone has to manufacture an emergency "blank" disk so that in the event of a problem with the diaphram, it can be replaced with a disk (between dives of course) so another dive is not lost.. If the diaphram failed there probably is a cause behind it and a solid piece of plastic would at least save the day..

Mdemon · 14th August 2007, 10:20

Or you could just leave the AutoAir where it is and get a BOV.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry)

I recently replaced the cheapo Buddy Auto Air on my Inspiration with a very good Atomic SS1 model.

Did everybody else know that all the hoses on the Inspiration are non-standard or am I the only one? This means if you are on a dive trip and bust a host or strip out some threads you have to call England for a replacement - the dive trip is over.

In order to simply change out the Buddy Air:
The quick fit connection is non-standard so I had to find a way to use the hose supplied with the new Atomic 2ed stage. You would think that you could just install the reg and quick connect hose.
The threaded fitting that goes into the manifold is non standard - I had to find an adapter and take it to a machine shop to have it modified to fit into the manifold. This was pretty easy to do and the machine shop didnt even charge me (it would have been about 10.00 US dollars).
This should have been just a simple hose replacement. This could never have been done at a resort, in a boat, in a hotel room, on a beach, or anywhere other than a workbench and a machine shop.

The long and short - I certainly didnt realize that that all of the hose fittings are non-standard on the Inspiration. This really upsets me, for this unit cannot be self-serviced except through custom machine shop work or special order through England or APDiving.

Are the standard hoses on the Meg? Hmmmmmm.
This is a very serious argument against the Inspiration.

(dont damage that cheapo Buddy Air on a dive trip cause you'll not be able to replace it temporarily - same goes for any of the hoses)

Popsmoke

Tino de Rijk · 14th August 2007, 10:57

Joe's remark is not about the AutoAir, it is about the ADV.

I agree with Joe: in case of emergency, closing the inlet down with the shut-off valve, and replacing the diaphragm with a piece of plastic can safe the day.

then again: if you prepare that well for a trip that you carry such a remedial plastic disk, you might as well carry a spare original APD diaphragm, which costs next to nothing, and probably saves you at least 3 grams in weight (Remember: I'm Dutch, close to the Scots in terms of saving weight = money.)

Ciao,

Tino.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Or you could just leave the AutoAir where it is and get a BOV.

***jradomski*** · 14th August 2007, 14:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

Joe's remark is not about the AutoAir, it is about the ADV.

I agree with Joe: in case of emergency, closing the inlet down with the shut-off valve, and replacing the diaphragm with a piece of plastic can safe the day.

then again: if you prepare that well for a trip that you carry such a remedial plastic disk, you might as well carry a spare original APD diaphragm, which costs next to nothing, and probably saves you at least 3 grams in weight (Remember: I'm Dutch, close to the Scots in terms of saving weight = money.)

Ciao,

Tino.

My reasoning for a disk over the diaphram is this... If the diaphram was punctured there probably is some reason for it, and there is a good chance something else was damaged and it might simply happen again.. I would like to have both with me (right now I just carry a normal t-piece with me that I could install).. If it could be verified that it shouldn't happen again then do the correct fix.. otherwise plug it and go diving..

13th August 2007, 11:56	#11 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Sorry to say, but instead of complaining a lot, and destroying some of your gear in the process, one simple phonecall to APD or SDS would have gotten you an ADV disassembly/assembly instruction manual, completely with lots of detail photo's and instructions, free of charge - as has been mentioned dozens of times also here on this forum (that's what the "search" function is for...). If you can still rotate the iron part after thightening, you basically destroyed the ABS housing of the ADV, and that will cause it to leak, and will render it very vulnerable to e.g. damaging the membrane. The reason is over-tightening - very clearly warned against in the manual, incl. ways to avoid it. Don't blame APD, just look in the mirror. And don't dive it in this condition, as the risk of a loop flood is real. As to your hose fitting remark: as many remarked before me, the thread used is (dive-)industry standard 3/8 " (of 7/16 on HP ports), so nothing "special APD". If you start "repairing" vital parts like the ADV without prior knowledge or instructions, you will IMHO opion very soon hurt yourself. I never touch anything 1st or 2nd stage like without an instruction manual. The reason APD uses a special, bigger bore connector for the AutoAir (and only for that one), is also for a good reason: it is supposed to act as a full-blown backup regulator, and as such needs to be able to deliver the flow capacity to do that, also at depth. Normal inflator couplings "only" have to suppy the flow to inflate a wing or BC or drysuit - quite a limited flow. In fact, a high flow would just impose a risk for that specific purpose. So there are good reasons for APD to do this, other than just wanting to cause a pain in the butt... Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry) The hose assembly that came with the Atomic - the quick connect would not fit onto the Buddy Air. The Atomic has a feature that allows the end of the hose to be disassembled and re-installed on other type hoses. Not so with the Buddy Air hose though. The threaded end of the Atomic would not fit into the manifold bar properly, and I am sure resultied in this experience: Machining/fabricating an adapter seemed to solve the problem. But now another problem: Upon replacing the hose to the ADV - the stainless bar/valve inside the ADV spins when when tightening the allen screw on the outside of the unit. I some positions it freeflows- in some positions the the ADV 'button' does not work when pressed - it does not inject dil. What is the proper way to setup, adjust, and test the ADV? Popsmoke
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13th August 2007, 18:58	#12 (permalink)
Terry New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 94	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Tino - Why are you trying to be so abrasive and caustic? I get your point. You make yourself sound like a know it all with 20-20 hindsight. I'm sorry I didnt do a seach on tighting banjo screws and download and read all the manuals - okay? I now have the manual you wrote in 2006 because someone was nice enough to forward it - I didnt even know it existed untill now. The reason for these forums are for sharing informantion and experience rather than ascerbic put-downs and 'go do a search'. You may be knowledgeable but you dont come off real well. Frankly - I would have rather heard what you had to say in a constructive contributing manner. Sheesh, Popsmoke Last edited by Terry : 13th August 2007 at 19:17.
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13th August 2007, 21:09	#13 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new I had first written a "caustic" reply back, then deleted it, as it does not contribute to anything. If you think I only have 20-20 hindsight: it's a free world, so you're entitled to your opinion. I work through listening to, and reading from many guys FAR more knowledgeable than I am (quite a lot on this list, like Joe Radomski, or the guys at the APD factory), before I vent an opinion in public, accusing a vendor in the process. Call me old-fashioned.... And no, I don't work for APD. I just happen to like them & write technical manuals for fun; that's all. BTW: make sure you have the latest version of the ADV manual. The unit was slightly changed after June 2006 (an O-ring was added; see my other fairly recent post somewhere on this forum). Otherwise you're still looking at a leak after following the instructions in the old(er) manual, because you're missing an extra O-ring added to the house opposite the banjo... That's why I recommend asking the manual from the factory, so you know you have the most recent version. Ciao, and safe diving, Tino. Last edited by Tino de Rijk : 13th August 2007 at 21:28.
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13th August 2007, 21:47	#14 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 544	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry) Did everybody else know that all the hoses on the Inspiration are non-standard or am I the only one? This means if you are on a dive trip and bust a host or strip out some threads you have to call England for a replacement - the dive trip is over. This would be the same as complaining that the pistons in your GM car engine don't fit in a Ford..... If you want spares or information ask SDS or the factory. A phone call sorts it all. __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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13th August 2007, 22:57	#15 (permalink)
Terry New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 94	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Thanks for your thoughtful replies - The ending to this is: I guess I was venting regarding the non-standard hoses - I anyone does not believe me please PM me. I will be more than happy to take some pictures of the Atomic hoses next to the AP hoses up close to illustrate what I am talking about. One thing to bear in mind - this occured because I unscrewed the banjo retaining screw to remove that hose. Upon retightening that screw I noticed the ADV body rotating inside the T piece. The ADV body rotated perhaps one or two times before I stopped and seeked advice. I noticed that the ADV Lever was not against the diaphram seat. I spun the ADV valve a partial turn to re-seat the lever and the ADV seemed to work as expected. I was not trying to disassemble or perform maintenance the ADV in any way. Joe was nice enough to forward Tino's ADV maintenance manual- it did help to diagnose the issue and identify a resolution. I talked with Ed over at AP and walked him through the problem. Ed recommeded a replacement set to include T piece, diaphram, and locking rings, also, the proper tools to perform this maintenance. I feel that I am quite capable of removing the T piece, removing the ADV body, and reinstalling them in new T piece along with a new diaphram. So there it is ... As it is right now, the ADV seems to work properly when neg pressure is provided across the T and when the diaphram is depressed. The unit holds neg and pos pressure fine. The ADV valve is tight in its seat and does nto free rotate, however as speculated, since it has indeed rotated, it has rounded off it's seat and thus needs to be replaced. As an ADV valve is a convenience and is really not needed to dive I can just pull the ADV shut-off and remove it from the system and fly the unit on manual dil inject - no problem there. The diaphram on the ADV will be replaced as a matter of prudence because the ADV Lever sort of poked into it. Though it held pos and neg pressure. If anyone is interested after all this, I will post my experience in replacing the T, ADV body, and Diaphram. Phew.... sorry for the epic.
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14th August 2007, 08:09	#16 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new The shut-off valve only protects you against freeflow problems. It will not protect you against a damaged diaphragm - it will flood big-time if the diaphragm leaks. As such it is not just a convenience, but if broken also a risk. That is also why it sits behind a relatively thick protective cover. So at any suspicion of a damaged diaphragm, whatever the cause (and there is really only one likely cause; the one you described) - replace it! Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry) As an ADV valve is a convenience and is really not needed to dive I can just pull the ADV shut-off and remove it from the system and fly the unit on manual dil inject - no problem there. The diaphram on the ADV will be replaced as a matter of prudence because the ADV Lever sort of poked into it. Though it held pos and neg pressure.
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14th August 2007, 08:59	#17 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) The shut-off valve only protects you against freeflow problems. It will not protect you against a damaged diaphragm - it will flood big-time if the diaphragm leaks. As such it is not just a convenience, but if broken also a risk. That is also why it sits behind a relatively thick protective cover. So at any suspicion of a damaged diaphragm, whatever the cause (and there is really only one likely cause; the one you described) - replace it! Ciao, Tino. I think someone has to manufacture an emergency "blank" disk so that in the event of a problem with the diaphram, it can be replaced with a disk (between dives of course) so another dive is not lost.. If the diaphram failed there probably is a cause behind it and a solid piece of plastic would at least save the day.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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14th August 2007, 10:20	#18 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Or you could just leave the AutoAir where it is and get a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by Terry) I recently replaced the cheapo Buddy Auto Air on my Inspiration with a very good Atomic SS1 model. Did everybody else know that all the hoses on the Inspiration are non-standard or am I the only one? This means if you are on a dive trip and bust a host or strip out some threads you have to call England for a replacement - the dive trip is over. In order to simply change out the Buddy Air: The quick fit connection is non-standard so I had to find a way to use the hose supplied with the new Atomic 2ed stage. You would think that you could just install the reg and quick connect hose. The threaded fitting that goes into the manifold is non standard - I had to find an adapter and take it to a machine shop to have it modified to fit into the manifold. This was pretty easy to do and the machine shop didnt even charge me (it would have been about 10.00 US dollars). This should have been just a simple hose replacement. This could never have been done at a resort, in a boat, in a hotel room, on a beach, or anywhere other than a workbench and a machine shop. The long and short - I certainly didnt realize that that all of the hose fittings are non-standard on the Inspiration. This really upsets me, for this unit cannot be self-serviced except through custom machine shop work or special order through England or APDiving. Are the standard hoses on the Meg? Hmmmmmm. This is a very serious argument against the Inspiration. (dont damage that cheapo Buddy Air on a dive trip cause you'll not be able to replace it temporarily - same goes for any of the hoses) Popsmoke __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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14th August 2007, 10:57	#19 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 375	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Joe's remark is not about the AutoAir, it is about the ADV. I agree with Joe: in case of emergency, closing the inlet down with the shut-off valve, and replacing the diaphragm with a piece of plastic can safe the day. then again: if you prepare that well for a trip that you carry such a remedial plastic disk, you might as well carry a spare original APD diaphragm, which costs next to nothing, and probably saves you at least 3 grams in weight (Remember: I'm Dutch, close to the Scots in terms of saving weight = money.) Ciao, Tino. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Or you could just leave the AutoAir where it is and get a BOV.
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14th August 2007, 14:42	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,115	Re: What a pain in the butt - installing a new Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) Joe's remark is not about the AutoAir, it is about the ADV. I agree with Joe: in case of emergency, closing the inlet down with the shut-off valve, and replacing the diaphragm with a piece of plastic can safe the day. then again: if you prepare that well for a trip that you carry such a remedial plastic disk, you might as well carry a spare original APD diaphragm, which costs next to nothing, and probably saves you at least 3 grams in weight (Remember: I'm Dutch, close to the Scots in terms of saving weight = money.) Ciao, Tino. My reasoning for a disk over the diaphram is this... If the diaphram was punctured there probably is some reason for it, and there is a good chance something else was damaged and it might simply happen again.. I would like to have both with me (right now I just carry a normal t-piece with me that I could install).. If it could be verified that it shouldn't happen again then do the correct fix.. otherwise plug it and go diving.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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