Vision elect. or not.

SLARIVIE · 21st February 2007, 16:15

I'm new in the rebrather world and want to knows is $4000 us more ask for worth the price.

**Gill Envy** · 21st February 2007, 16:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by SLARIVIE)

I'm new in the rebrather world and want to knows is $4000 us more ask for worth the price.

Slarivie, are you asking if USD $4,000 is too much to pay for a vision head? I'm a bit confused by the wording, and thought clarification might help others as well.

From memory, a brand new set of vision electronics with temp stick is around USD 5,000.

g

SLARIVIE · 21st February 2007, 16:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Slarivie, are you asking if USD $4,000 is too much to pay for a vision head? I'm a bit confused by the wording, and thought clarification might help others as well.

From memory, a brand new set of vision electronics with temp stick is around USD 5,000.

g

It's diff. between Inspiration Classic rebuild vs Inspiration with vision elect.

**Gill Envy** · 21st February 2007, 20:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by SLARIVIE)

It's diff. between Inspiration Classic rebuild vs Inspiration with vision elect.

I can't speak for your needs, but for me the vision is the way to go, I love diving it. I think the vision is a big step up from the classic.

Don't get spooked a bit by the "software bugs" that were thought to be responsible for some missed deco/cns warning issues. The vast majority of issues seem to come down to proper battery type not actual software bugs, IMHO, though maintining a healthy level of distrust is a good thing with any rebreather.**

Martin Parker/AP is now recommending the Duracell ultra as the best choice for the electronics. You need a battery that can handle the heavy combinations of load on start up and under certain diving scenarios, ascent in particular, where the solenoid is firing a lot after prolonged use . If using the correct batteries and avoiding allowing battery 1 to get too low, the system is reliable. Software updates reportedly help in making the system more tolerant to voltage swings.**

There is one obscure scenario where the vision's Achilles heel is revealed. If an incorrect battery is used in battery 1 (from what i can tell it's with Panasonic batteries in particular) and the system is under heavy load continuously for a while the voltage can drop so precipitously that the battery swap system becomes disabled...this is to be avoided as you will have a total system shut down...the one downside to having one screen, but this can be avoided with the proper battery type.**It would also make scense that a battery contact problem in B1 could lead to this as well, but I have not heard of contact issues being common on the vision.

In any case, Knowing that under very rare and unlikely scenarios that the dual controller has this common failure point, despite it's two batteries, has added to the list of reasons i'm considering getting a 4th cell and totally separate po2 and deco system added (likely a Shearwater), but frankly I'd probably be considering doing that on any eCCR I baught. I like the fact that the vision has one screen, it means that when I add a totally redundant back up I will end up with two, not three screens to be paying attention to...a level of complexity I think is manageable.**After taking a hard look at mCCR's vs eCCR's I have concluded that system isolation is of significant value, good training and vigilance notwithstanding. To me, redundancy with a totaly different brand of po2 computer and o2 cell just seems like a good idea as a general rule and i don't expect any manufacturer to admit that considering it's not really in their best financial interest.

scubanimal · 21st February 2007, 22:42

Sorry about hijacking the thread......

Gill,
where did you find out that the Duracell ultra is the battery of choice for the vision electronics? The manual I just downloaded still states Energizer or Fijitsu. I need to stock up on batteries, hence my question.

Thanks

camerone · 21st February 2007, 22:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

I can't speak for your needs, but for me the vision is the way to go, I love diving it. I think the vision is a big step up from the classic.

Ditto. I did training a few years ago on what's now a "classic" inspiration, with the two clunky handsets, and only setpoint controllers built in. The boat I was on for the training had Cliff Simoneau and two prototype Evolutions on it. After a chance to do an hour or so on the early Evolution unit, I switched my order to a Vision set up as soon as I was back on land. To me, it was that dramatic, and the price increase was entirely reasonable, especially compared to outfitting a similar "aftermarket" system to a unit.

To me, the difference was night and day between the two; the single handset is a lot less bulky, and the integrated dive computer is actually pretty good -- even in a bailout scenario. As much as I love my VR3, APV did a much better job with making the integral controller easy to use. I can't say as nice things about how they present the UI or lay out the screen, but it _is_ definitely a very user friendly computer.

I also thought the HUD was gimmicky until I got used to it. After around 70 or so hours on the Evo, I tried diving a KISS unit from a friend of mine...boy did I ever miss the HUD.

It's also really great at night, as the LEDs in the corner of my peripheral vision are a lot less distracting to me than having to hit the wrist controller all the time to look at my PO2. Sure, I still check them often, but the HUD suffices for the in-between checks, and gives me the peace of mind of a "third" backup, besides the two handset computers in the single housing, since it'll run long after the wrist display shuts off due to low power -- although I'd be a fool not to have switched batteries out long before that point.

There seem to be some good aftermarket heads/mods available to add HUDs and integral computers to the loop, but I like the fact that everything for me is single-sourced with the Vision electronics, tighly coupled together, and tested/developed as a unit, and that the factory stands behind them. APV is fairly well established, and, more importantly, has a lot more resources at their disposal for R&D and testing than a lot of the bit players...not that I'm saying that the small guys are bad - but there are advantages to larger operations, too

I've had nothing but good luck with both APV and my unit over the last 18 months or so, despite what the prevailing winds on the board seem to indicate. Nevertheless, a little distrust and paranoia is always a good thing, no matter which route you go.

01RMB · 21st February 2007, 23:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by scubanimal)

Sorry about hijacking the thread......

Gill,
where did you find out that the Duracell ultra is the battery of choice for the vision electronics? The manual I just downloaded still states Energizer or Fijitsu. I need to stock up on batteries, hence my question.

Thanks

Martin Parker has posted on the Inspiration forum that the Duracell Ultras provide the best performance and warned against the Panasonic batteries in particular.

**nigelh** · 22nd February 2007, 07:53

I spent £3K on the vision upgrade to a classic so I guess you could say I voted yes with my money.

I had a slight blip but APD swapped the unit out and I still rate it as a good move. I got just under £1K back on my old in-service head from a home-builder but I wanted the temp stick and a second deco computer.

I have added a forth cell as readout only.

jptaylor9 · 22nd February 2007, 09:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by 01RMB)

Martin Parker has posted on the Inspiration forum that the Duracell Ultras provide the best performance and warned against the Panasonic batteries in particular.

To complete the picture, he also said the Varta batteries are OK to use in addition to Fujitsu, Energizer & Duracell Ultra's. (See his battery video)

PS. I upgraded from Classic to Vision, so I also voted Yes.

David Heavey · 22nd February 2007, 13:07

Clearly the classic controls are the old steam engine while the the Vision is the Ferrari.
Steam Engines are nice for anorak people but would you buy one today to drive to work, of course not

Equipment moves on, electronics should be more reliable than the mechanical bits today why would anyone have a dilema about old designs.
Get the latest have great diving.
David

21st February 2007, 16:15	#1 (permalink)
SLARIVIE RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 5	Vision elect. or not. I'm new in the rebrather world and want to knows is $4000 us more ask for worth the price.
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 16:41	#2 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,348	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by SLARIVIE) I'm new in the rebrather world and want to knows is $4000 us more ask for worth the price. Slarivie, are you asking if USD $4,000 is too much to pay for a vision head? I'm a bit confused by the wording, and thought clarification might help others as well. From memory, a brand new set of vision electronics with temp stick is around USD 5,000. g __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Online)

21st February 2007, 16:54	#3 (permalink)
SLARIVIE RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 5	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Slarivie, are you asking if USD $4,000 is too much to pay for a vision head? I'm a bit confused by the wording, and thought clarification might help others as well. From memory, a brand new set of vision electronics with temp stick is around USD 5,000. g It's diff. between Inspiration Classic rebuild vs Inspiration with vision elect.
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 20:33	#4 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,348	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by SLARIVIE) It's diff. between Inspiration Classic rebuild vs Inspiration with vision elect. I can't speak for your needs, but for me the vision is the way to go, I love diving it. I think the vision is a big step up from the classic. Don't get spooked a bit by the "software bugs" that were thought to be responsible for some missed deco/cns warning issues. The vast majority of issues seem to come down to proper battery type not actual software bugs, IMHO, though maintining a healthy level of distrust is a good thing with any rebreather. Martin Parker/AP is now recommending the Duracell ultra as the best choice for the electronics. You need a battery that can handle the heavy combinations of load on start up and under certain diving scenarios, ascent in particular, where the solenoid is firing a lot after prolonged use . If using the correct batteries and avoiding allowing battery 1 to get too low, the system is reliable. Software updates reportedly help in making the system more tolerant to voltage swings. There is one obscure scenario where the vision's Achilles heel is revealed. If an incorrect battery is used in battery 1 (from what i can tell it's with Panasonic batteries in particular) and the system is under heavy load continuously for a while the voltage can drop so precipitously that the battery swap system becomes disabled...this is to be avoided as you will have a total system shut down...the one downside to having one screen, but this can be avoided with the proper battery type.It would also make scense that a battery contact problem in B1 could lead to this as well, but I have not heard of contact issues being common on the vision. In any case, Knowing that under very rare and unlikely scenarios that the dual controller has this common failure point, despite it's two batteries, has added to the list of reasons i'm considering getting a 4th cell and totally separate po2 and deco system added (likely a Shearwater), but frankly I'd probably be considering doing that on any eCCR I baught. I like the fact that the vision has one screen, it means that when I add a totally redundant back up I will end up with two, not three screens to be paying attention to...a level of complexity I think is manageable.After taking a hard look at mCCR's vs eCCR's I have concluded that system isolation is of significant value, good training and vigilance notwithstanding. To me, redundancy with a totaly different brand of po2 computer and o2 cell just seems like a good idea as a general rule and i don't expect any manufacturer to admit that considering it's not really in their best financial interest. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Online)

21st February 2007, 22:42	#5 (permalink)
scubanimal RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Optima Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 98	Re: Vision elect. or not. Sorry about hijacking the thread...... Gill, where did you find out that the Duracell ultra is the battery of choice for the vision electronics? The manual I just downloaded still states Energizer or Fijitsu. I need to stock up on batteries, hence my question. Thanks
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 22:53	#6 (permalink)
camerone RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 79	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) I can't speak for your needs, but for me the vision is the way to go, I love diving it. I think the vision is a big step up from the classic. Ditto. I did training a few years ago on what's now a "classic" inspiration, with the two clunky handsets, and only setpoint controllers built in. The boat I was on for the training had Cliff Simoneau and two prototype Evolutions on it. After a chance to do an hour or so on the early Evolution unit, I switched my order to a Vision set up as soon as I was back on land. To me, it was that dramatic, and the price increase was entirely reasonable, especially compared to outfitting a similar "aftermarket" system to a unit. To me, the difference was night and day between the two; the single handset is a lot less bulky, and the integrated dive computer is actually pretty good -- even in a bailout scenario. As much as I love my VR3, APV did a much better job with making the integral controller easy to use. I can't say as nice things about how they present the UI or lay out the screen, but it _is_ definitely a very user friendly computer. I also thought the HUD was gimmicky until I got used to it. After around 70 or so hours on the Evo, I tried diving a KISS unit from a friend of mine...boy did I ever miss the HUD. It's also really great at night, as the LEDs in the corner of my peripheral vision are a lot less distracting to me than having to hit the wrist controller all the time to look at my PO2. Sure, I still check them often, but the HUD suffices for the in-between checks, and gives me the peace of mind of a "third" backup, besides the two handset computers in the single housing, since it'll run long after the wrist display shuts off due to low power -- although I'd be a fool not to have switched batteries out long before that point. There seem to be some good aftermarket heads/mods available to add HUDs and integral computers to the loop, but I like the fact that everything for me is single-sourced with the Vision electronics, tighly coupled together, and tested/developed as a unit, and that the factory stands behind them. APV is fairly well established, and, more importantly, has a lot more resources at their disposal for R&D and testing than a lot of the bit players...not that I'm saying that the small guys are bad - but there are advantages to larger operations, too I've had nothing but good luck with both APV and my unit over the last 18 months or so, despite what the prevailing winds on the board seem to indicate. Nevertheless, a little distrust and paranoia is always a good thing, no matter which route you go.
(Offline)

21st February 2007, 23:24	#7 (permalink)
01RMB Evolving Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 193	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by scubanimal) Sorry about hijacking the thread...... Gill, where did you find out that the Duracell ultra is the battery of choice for the vision electronics? The manual I just downloaded still states Energizer or Fijitsu. I need to stock up on batteries, hence my question. Thanks Martin Parker has posted on the Inspiration forum that the Duracell Ultras provide the best performance and warned against the Panasonic batteries in particular. __________________ Cheers Rod
(Online)

22nd February 2007, 07:53	#8 (permalink)
nigelh New member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 883	Re: Vision elect. or not. I spent £3K on the vision upgrade to a classic so I guess you could say I voted yes with my money. I had a slight blip but APD swapped the unit out and I still rate it as a good move. I got just under £1K back on my old in-service head from a home-builder but I wanted the temp stick and a second deco computer. I have added a forth cell as readout only. __________________ nigelh
(Offline)

22nd February 2007, 09:22	#9 (permalink)
jptaylor9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 316	Re: Vision elect. or not. Quote: (Originally Posted by 01RMB) Martin Parker has posted on the Inspiration forum that the Duracell Ultras provide the best performance and warned against the Panasonic batteries in particular. To complete the picture, he also said the Varta batteries are OK to use in addition to Fujitsu, Energizer & Duracell Ultra's. (See his battery video) PS. I upgraded from Classic to Vision, so I also voted Yes.
(Offline)

22nd February 2007, 13:07	#10 (permalink)
David Heavey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK, Worcester Posts: 18	Re: Vision elect. or not. Clearly the classic controls are the old steam engine while the the Vision is the Ferrari. Steam Engines are nice for anorak people but would you buy one today to drive to work, of course not Equipment moves on, electronics should be more reliable than the mechanical bits today why would anyone have a dilema about old designs. Get the latest have great diving. David
(Offline)

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