IDA-71 MOD and time

Skipbreather · 15th January 2007, 15:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

You MUST redo the internal counterlung hose connections to the "Y" that feeds gas into the scrubbers. They have become undone and lead to scrubber bypass. We "almost" lost a diver here because of that. I jumped into the water off the boat 30 miles ofshore and rescued him. He was *totally* incapacitated by the C02 and was unable to even remove his DSV and breathe surface air. This was a surface swimming incident, after he entered the water but bfore he made it to the anchor line for descent. It scared us LOTS. I swam clothes and all...

Dave

I had the ever lovin’ crap scared out of me, as well, when I found my dive buddy passed out cold, eyes rolled back into his head, within maybe 30 seconds of death. When we tore down his rig we discovered the very first recorded instance of one these clamps breaking. I later found BOTH of mine broken, just waiting to kill me. Guys, this is a VERY vulnerable Achilles’ heel of an otherwise very robust rig.

Quote: (Originally Posted by montyg)

Hi Dave, others

We have been lucky here in SA since all four IDA-71's came with very sturdy metal clamps on all three sides of the T-piece on the exhalation side going through the counterlung.

rgds
monty

Hi Monty-

Here is what becomes of your ”sturdy metal clamps” after a busy season of diving. The folded over tab breaks and allows the hose to come off inside the bag. Instant total scrubber bypass.

It gets even better: The clamp can break but the hose not come off right away- what happened to me IN TWO PLACES. Why is this bad? It can give you a false positive on your secondary negative pressure check you should be performing to verify the integrity of just this small portion of the loop. The suction can hold an unclamped hose in place. Also note that the nature and location of this failure dictates it will NOT be revealed by a standard negative pressure check!

The localized (second) negative pressure check can be executed by plugging the bag’s outputs w/ rubber plugs & attaching the INHALE fitting of your breathing hoses to the EXHALE fitting on the top of the rig. Suck ‘er down & see what happens. Vacuum gets released by unscrewing the attached hose fitting.

Hope this helps- to keep you & mates alive!

Dive safe,
Ken

Corallaro · 15th January 2007, 16:56

Hi Dave

happy to read you!

My external nitrox tank isn't an alluminun tank...the oxide on surface and sound is that of Carbon Steel tank.
It have the same diameter, have round bottom but, it is more longer than the internal oxigen tank, so i think is an 1.5 litres....

For the moment I use a 1 liter oxygen tank of my KIP-8 that have the same
external size of the original o2 tank of ida 71 but without regulator and the RGU regulator is attached to the cylinder throught an adapter with a gauge and it is completely out of chassis whit an angle of 135° down.
In original franken rig the button isn't confortable to push,
in this mode the button is left down and simply to push

this evening when i go at home i make photos of working

at this moment i found a supplier in Italy that have an 1,3 litres oxigen tank.......1,5 litres neither for the moment!!!

Giovanni

**Dave Sutton** · 15th January 2007, 17:26

Sounds good. Like to see the photos.

I bought some 02 bottles in German, 1.5 and 2 litre, that have same thread as the RGU regulator, so maybe you see about that.

I wrongly wrote the description of the steel and aluminum cylinders before. I just made te change to the post, but in case you alread read it: Aluminum cylinders have the flat bottom and steel the rounded bottom.

Dave

**Dave Sutton** · 15th January 2007, 17:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Skipbreather)

I had the ever lovin’ crap scared out of me, as well, when I found my dive buddy passed out cold, eyes rolled back into his head, within maybe 30 seconds of death. When we tore down his rig we discovered the very first recorded instance of one these clamps breaking. I later found BOTH of mine broken, just waiting to kill me. Guys, this is a VERY vulnerable Achilles’ heel of an otherwise very robust rig.

AGREED 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I jumped into the water fully clothed and dragged an unconcious diver back to the surface in 130 feet of water (freedived to 15 feet to grab him by the back of the neck and swam him to the surface), and this was the problem. 5 seconds later for me to jump in and he would have been gone. His DSV had slipped out of the mouth as he lost conciousness, all loop gas then vented, and he was probably 20 pounds negatively bouyant and on a ONE WAY trip to the bottom of the ocean when I managed to grab his harness and then kicked (no fins) back to the surface in the open ocean. TRUST ME this was a VERY CLOSE CALL!!! I *almost* was not able to make the surface myself in my clothes, no fins, no mask, and with a heavy unconcious diver in one hand. I *almost* let him go in order to save myself, but I did not. Get it? This was BAD.

There is NO DOUBT THAT ALL IDA-71'S MUST HAVE THIS FIXED WITH 100% CERTAINTY. Otherwise there is a 100% CERTAIN situation where you WILL DIE EVENTUALLY. Got it?

The only way is to open the bag and replace the clamps. I put a drysuit piss-zipper into the counterlung so I can open it for regular inspection. Makes drying the lung easy too.

Dave

montyg · 15th January 2007, 18:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

There is NO DOUBT THAT ALL IDA-71'S MUST HAVE THIS FIXED WITH 100% CERTAINTY. Otherwise there is a 100% CERTAIN situation where you WILL DIE EVENTUALLY. Got it?

The only way is to open the bag and replace the clamps. I put a drysuit piss-zipper into the counterlung so I can open it for regular inspection. Makes drying the lung easy too.

Dave

Thanks Dave and Ken, your advice is sobering and taken to heart.

The clamps in our IDA-71's are of a different design to the ones shown in Ken's pictures. Ours is made of much thicker, but narrower metal bands which come in two halves and is assembled with two screws on each clamp.

I'll double check them again just in case.

Incidentally what did you replace your clamps with?

rgds
monty

GKAM · 15th January 2007, 19:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by montyg)

The clamps in our IDA-71's are of a different design to the ones shown in Ken's pictures. Ours is made of much thicker, but narrower metal bands which come in two halves and is assembled with two screws on each clamp.

Mine were cheap plastic ones! One clamp was already broken and I would not have known about it had I not asked some RBW forum members.

I replaced the plastic clamps with SS jubilee clips. However, to the IDA's defence:

1. The hoses are not easy to pull off the T-piece
2. Russians do dive this rig in the original state and seem to have no problems (heck it's a milspec rig!)

To get CO2 leaking in the bag, you have to be one unlucky SOB! Still it is wise to err in the side of caution.

/GKAM

**Dave Sutton** · 16th January 2007, 02:58

What has been pointed out is true: There are several variations of the hose connector system. But the issue is that it needs to be taken apart to be inspectd and EVERY ONE needs to be inspected.

The Russians did indeed dive them as-is, but the rig is not nearly as milspec as "MILSPEC". They essentially were dispose-a-rigs not designed for long-term use. This takes nothing away from them, just don's suppose for a moment that they are Mark-15's......

As for being lucky, we had 2 out of 20 rigs that I sold in the original batch fail in service, with Ken's buddy on one and the guy I rescued on another. 10% is not good odds.

Dave

Corallaro · 16th January 2007, 08:29

Hi

there is the photos of my 71.....

a) the two bottles, the 1 liter oxigen bottle of the KIP8 with adapter, gauge and RGUFM regulator and the 1,5 litres bottle with gauge and HP T-fitting from original IDA71 oxygen bottle

b) the internal layout

c) the oxygen circuit and diluent circuit, note I leave the quick connect only for diluent circuit so i have an internal 1,5 litres tank and I attach, for example, my old three litres tank, if i empty the external bottle diluent....in emergency..I disconnect it and remain the 1,5 litres internal bottle of reserve..
in the hose from diluent bottle an quick connect i insert a multiple T piece with two out, one for wings and one for bailout second stage

d) the profile of unit

e) push the oxygen button

a possible problem when i use a second stage bailouta and an external bottle trought a quick disconnect the air flow maybe OK???

working...working...working...........

**Dave Sutton** · 16th January 2007, 12:26

That all looks nice. The re-use of the KIP-8 cylinder is a good idea.

And I see that Franken-Rig has a very close relative... :-)

Some thoughts:

The RGU add valve looks vulnerable to damage, not in the water but when being handled at the surface. You might think to supply it with a high pressure hose leading from the 02 cylinder to the RGU regulator, so you can then snap the RGU regulator to the harness on the chest. Makes it easy to reach, and also less able to be damaged.

The work looks great in any case! The adapter for the RGU regulator is a nice part. Well done!

Dave

GKAM · 16th January 2007, 12:27

Hi Corallaro,

How deep do you intend to use your unit? The RGU regulator stops flowing at around 30m. Also, the current setup leaves the O2 side too exposed for my liking. Not very robust for everyday diving.

Keeping 2 scrubbers but using an IP limited regulator kind of defeats the purpose. Also, your fittings for refilling the bottles are non-standard.

IMHO, Dave is correct in that you should either keep 2 scrubbers plus the O2 tank and add offboard DIL for deeper dives (>50m) or use a single scrubber with onboard 1.5-2L tanks.

Perhaps you could consider using a kiss or needle valve if you want to dive the rig deeper than 20-30m.

/GKAM

15th January 2007, 16:56	#12 (permalink)
Corallaro IDA-71,IDA-76,NaubosAR90 Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Italia - Sicilia Posts: 248	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Hi Dave happy to read you! My external nitrox tank isn't an alluminun tank...the oxide on surface and sound is that of Carbon Steel tank. It have the same diameter, have round bottom but, it is more longer than the internal oxigen tank, so i think is an 1.5 litres.... For the moment I use a 1 liter oxygen tank of my KIP-8 that have the same external size of the original o2 tank of ida 71 but without regulator and the RGU regulator is attached to the cylinder throught an adapter with a gauge and it is completely out of chassis whit an angle of 135° down. In original franken rig the button isn't confortable to push, in this mode the button is left down and simply to push this evening when i go at home i make photos of working at this moment i found a supplier in Italy that have an 1,3 litres oxigen tank.......1,5 litres neither for the moment!!! Giovanni Last edited by Corallaro : 15th January 2007 at 17:00.
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15th January 2007, 17:26	#13 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Sounds good. Like to see the photos. I bought some 02 bottles in German, 1.5 and 2 litre, that have same thread as the RGU regulator, so maybe you see about that. I wrongly wrote the description of the steel and aluminum cylinders before. I just made te change to the post, but in case you alread read it: Aluminum cylinders have the flat bottom and steel the rounded bottom. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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15th January 2007, 17:33	#14 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Quote: (Originally Posted by Skipbreather) I had the ever lovin’ crap scared out of me, as well, when I found my dive buddy passed out cold, eyes rolled back into his head, within maybe 30 seconds of death. When we tore down his rig we discovered the very first recorded instance of one these clamps breaking. I later found BOTH of mine broken, just waiting to kill me. Guys, this is a VERY vulnerable Achilles’ heel of an otherwise very robust rig. AGREED 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I jumped into the water fully clothed and dragged an unconcious diver back to the surface in 130 feet of water (freedived to 15 feet to grab him by the back of the neck and swam him to the surface), and this was the problem. 5 seconds later for me to jump in and he would have been gone. His DSV had slipped out of the mouth as he lost conciousness, all loop gas then vented, and he was probably 20 pounds negatively bouyant and on a ONE WAY trip to the bottom of the ocean when I managed to grab his harness and then kicked (no fins) back to the surface in the open ocean. TRUST ME this was a VERY CLOSE CALL!!! I almost was not able to make the surface myself in my clothes, no fins, no mask, and with a heavy unconcious diver in one hand. I almost let him go in order to save myself, but I did not. Get it? This was BAD. There is NO DOUBT THAT ALL IDA-71'S MUST HAVE THIS FIXED WITH 100% CERTAINTY. Otherwise there is a 100% CERTAIN situation where you WILL DIE EVENTUALLY. Got it? The only way is to open the bag and replace the clamps. I put a drysuit piss-zipper into the counterlung so I can open it for regular inspection. Makes drying the lung easy too. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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15th January 2007, 18:08	#15 (permalink)
montyg Monty Guest Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 242	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) There is NO DOUBT THAT ALL IDA-71'S MUST HAVE THIS FIXED WITH 100% CERTAINTY. Otherwise there is a 100% CERTAIN situation where you WILL DIE EVENTUALLY. Got it? The only way is to open the bag and replace the clamps. I put a drysuit piss-zipper into the counterlung so I can open it for regular inspection. Makes drying the lung easy too. Dave Thanks Dave and Ken, your advice is sobering and taken to heart. The clamps in our IDA-71's are of a different design to the ones shown in Ken's pictures. Ours is made of much thicker, but narrower metal bands which come in two halves and is assembled with two screws on each clamp. I'll double check them again just in case. Incidentally what did you replace your clamps with? rgds monty
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15th January 2007, 19:35	#16 (permalink)
GKAM digital nomad Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Greece Posts: 254	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Quote: (Originally Posted by montyg) The clamps in our IDA-71's are of a different design to the ones shown in Ken's pictures. Ours is made of much thicker, but narrower metal bands which come in two halves and is assembled with two screws on each clamp. Mine were cheap plastic ones! One clamp was already broken and I would not have known about it had I not asked some RBW forum members. I replaced the plastic clamps with SS jubilee clips. However, to the IDA's defence: 1. The hoses are not easy to pull off the T-piece 2. Russians do dive this rig in the original state and seem to have no problems (heck it's a milspec rig!) To get CO2 leaking in the bag, you have to be one unlucky SOB! Still it is wise to err in the side of caution. /GKAM __________________ Stay #
(Online)

16th January 2007, 02:58	#17 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time What has been pointed out is true: There are several variations of the hose connector system. But the issue is that it needs to be taken apart to be inspectd and EVERY ONE needs to be inspected. The Russians did indeed dive them as-is, but the rig is not nearly as milspec as "MILSPEC". They essentially were dispose-a-rigs not designed for long-term use. This takes nothing away from them, just don's suppose for a moment that they are Mark-15's...... As for being lucky, we had 2 out of 20 rigs that I sold in the original batch fail in service, with Ken's buddy on one and the guy I rescued on another. 10% is not good odds. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

16th January 2007, 12:26	#19 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time That all looks nice. The re-use of the KIP-8 cylinder is a good idea. And I see that Franken-Rig has a very close relative... :-) Some thoughts: The RGU add valve looks vulnerable to damage, not in the water but when being handled at the surface. You might think to supply it with a high pressure hose leading from the 02 cylinder to the RGU regulator, so you can then snap the RGU regulator to the harness on the chest. Makes it easy to reach, and also less able to be damaged. The work looks great in any case! The adapter for the RGU regulator is a nice part. Well done! Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 16th January 2007 at 12:31.
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16th January 2007, 12:27	#20 (permalink)
GKAM digital nomad Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Greece Posts: 254	Re: IDA-71 MOD and time Hi Corallaro, How deep do you intend to use your unit? The RGU regulator stops flowing at around 30m. Also, the current setup leaves the O2 side too exposed for my liking. Not very robust for everyday diving. Keeping 2 scrubbers but using an IP limited regulator kind of defeats the purpose. Also, your fittings for refilling the bottles are non-standard. IMHO, Dave is correct in that you should either keep 2 scrubbers plus the O2 tank and add offboard DIL for deeper dives (>50m) or use a single scrubber with onboard 1.5-2L tanks. Perhaps you could consider using a kiss or needle valve if you want to dive the rig deeper than 20-30m. /GKAM __________________ Stay #
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