The real rebreather accessory…

Fort Collins Bob · 9th January 2007, 03:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by cramerdn)

I think you would be really over weighted even with a 100 lb wing. Pus it looks like a bit of an entanglement hazard.

Thanks Cramerdn, that was just the laugh I needed tonight !!

Kamsahamnida

jeff h · 9th January 2007, 03:50

Thanks everyone for the replies.

At my previous job I had access to full machine shop (12" + lathes, Bridgeports and the all of the tooling). It helped produce a couple of scooters (full size Gavins), rebreather parts, light cans, etc. (perks of a lowly research engineer).

Now I just miss having access to all of that. My project list has definitely grown.

On the 3-in-1 the swing over bed height is 17" with 31.5" between centers. I'm sure that's big enough to turn out anything I would ever want. The mill might be under powered though.

I'll keep you posted on what I find/decide. If I turn out 1 more scooter and a radial scrubber this unit would more than pay for itself. Although placing an order for the Golem scrubber would be much faster and easier. ..

Genesis · 9th January 2007, 04:01

Jesus, 17" over bed?! But its only a 5" chuck. That's gonna be an issue; you can bolt a face plate on it and probably a larger chuck, but I bet that ends up being a problem for anything significant.

It looks a LOT like the Micromark - you gotta wonder if it came out of the same (Chinese) factory..... bet it did!

Quck-change gearbox is nice.....

Nice price.. might not be a bad piece for the money....

Skipbreather · 9th January 2007, 04:33

Chuck is WAAAAY too small for anything other than very small Rebreather parts. You’d be far better off buying a 40 year old South Bend 9 inch Model A off of ebay for the same or less money- and it would be nicely tooled if you bid correctly. A combination of chuck capacity, power, and- once you get up to speed- thread variety is key to being able to build whatever dive bits you envision. Ends of my homebuilt Meg radial scrubber were only 6” in diameter but came within just 0.10 inches of the max capacity over the cross slide of my South Bend Heavy 10. Remember, cross slide travel is pretty much useless in most situations if you cannot turn stock over it.

A decent lathe and the skills to use it truly liberate the creative mind to craft really slick toys. Freedom from blister packed & bar coded dive gear is a beautiful thing! Just get it right or you’re gonna have a REALLY bad day!

Best,
Ken

Genesis · 9th January 2007, 05:08

Yeah, that's the other issue that lots of people who aren't used to this stuff miss - its not just swing over bed, its also swing over CROSSSLIDE. If you can't get the crossslide right under a workpiece you're stuck trying to cut with a tool mounted "long" (crossways), and that sucks for anything of any sort of size (and/or is either flatly impossible or downright dangerous)

The trick with the big machines though is where you put them. Around here the salt air is murderous and a climate-controlled environment is a MUST. That means either enclosing part of the garage and then climate-controlling it or figuring out how to convert part of the house

With REALLY big machines you start to run into power problems. 3 phase is flat not available in residential areas. There are solutions to that but they're both expensive and less than optimal (e.g. VFDs, rotary converters, etc) So for most stuff you want to stick with things you can run off 240.

The big machines also require significant care in use. Having something come apart (or get caught) can REALLY ruin your day/week/year/life. Those things have a shizload of rotational momentum in them and they will rip up parts, tools - and you - if you lack appropriate care.

RonMicjan · 9th January 2007, 05:36

I picked this monster up for $500, but then had to get a BIG 3 phase rotoconverter to run it off of the 240v my buddy has at his shop. wasnt too long til I stripped a tooth off the rack though. this came with a several chucks and one that takes 2 people to lift, plus a bunch of tooling. the deals are out there for sure.

SINUS · 9th January 2007, 06:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

I picked this monster up for $500, but then had to get a BIG 3 phase rotoconverter to run it off of the 240v my buddy has at his shop. wasnt too long til I stripped a tooth off the rack though. this came with a several chucks and one that takes 2 people to lift, plus a bunch of tooling. the deals are out there for sure.

Wow, thats a amazingly cheapo medium size lathe for $500.

very good deal Ron. Does it come with a 4 jaws chuck? The chuck looks big enough to machine a scrubber head. Looks kinda old .... but have you checked the cross feed backlash?

cheers
Wei Lan

RonMicjan · 9th January 2007, 06:18

no 4 jaw, got my eye out for one, I would gladly trade 2-3 jaw chucks for one 4 jaw, someone could be 2 jaws up on that trade : ) That would still leave me with 10 jaws to work with hehee.

I need to get the rack repaired and get it tuned up, just havent had time lately.

It was a beach getting the thing into the basement shop, it flattened the tires on my trailer, then we broke a 2500lb engine hoist getting it off the trailer, luckily my buddy has a pallet jack we used to get it moved into place. I suspect it will go with the building if he ever sells it, but Im snagging my roto converter if that happens.

unit is a moriseki ML-?? and it has a 5 hp 3 phase motor

SINUS · 9th January 2007, 06:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

I need to get the rack repaired and get it tuned up, just havent had time lately.

It was a beach getting the thing into the basement shop, it flattened the tires on my trailer, then we broke a 2500lb engine hoist getting it off the trailer, luckily my buddy has a pallet jack we used to get it moved into place. I suspect it will go with the building if he ever sells it, but Im snagging my roto converter if that happens.

If your going to use it for manufacturing purposes....I would advised you to have a Two-Axis DRO fitted onto your lathe for efficient operation. Trust me, you will love it.

Moving of heavy machinery should be done by professional mover for safety reason.

Cheers
Wei Lan

**Dave Sutton** · 9th January 2007, 13:16

OK, guys, right from te floor of the "Little Diveshop of Horrors"....

Chinese junk is Chinese junk... with that said, you can work around their tolerance issues and make good parts if you work slowly and carefully.

The little "Chinese mini lathes" have their own hobby surrounding them, but unless you want "fixing up the lathe" to be THE hobby, forget them.

Combination machines (lathe/mill/drill? suck: They are good for NONE of the three.... get a decent lathe, and then add a milling adapter (Palmgren) for the little milling you'll do, and then when finances and workload dictate, get a small milling machine. DO NOT buy a comnbination machine as you'll use the lathe 100 times for every milling operation you do and you *can* do simple milling on the lathe anyhow with the milling adapter, so buy a lathe that wrks like a lathe and get set for milling later.

If all you are going to make is delrin and brass rebreather parts, look at Sherlne miniature machine tools... cheap, excellent, and can be stored on the shelf of a closet when not in use. These are model makers tools. For making most rebreather parts they are magic. One upon a time I set up a dealership for these and got them wholesale for our rebreather friends. Everyone was pleased with them.

Old 9" South Bend lathes are a good home shop size, and are usually (or at least "often enough") 120 volt, and in any case are easy to re-motor. There is a hobby of restoring them so parts are available. They break down for shipment and in fact I sent one by *FEDEX* (yes really) to Pat Duffy (Oxycheq) in Anchorage Alaska before he moved stateside by disassembling it and sending it "one piece at a time" to him. One thing about these old South Bends: Many were designed for overhead leather belt drive, and have been converted for electric motor and belt drive. Belts are GREAT for the amateur lathe user... WHEN you catch the chuck with the apron for the first time the belt will slip and (hopefully) avoid catastrophe. Belts are far more forgiving than gears. Work great.

South Bend "Heavy 10" would be the deluxe home lathe of choice.....

The desk-top milling/drilling machines are fine for home use. More sensible than a Bridgeport probably. Get R8 spindle and it'll fit every tool a Bridgeport will hold.

I use a *worn out* South Bend Model C (9") and a pretty nice Bridgeport that I picked up locally. If I had to do it all over again, I would buy a new JET engine lathe and a new JET desktop milling/drilling machine. Sure, the JET stuff is Chinese, and are not a South Bend or a Bridgeport. But then again they are NEW, and at my rate of use it would be EONS before they were as worn out as my South Bend (on whic I can still make good parts). My milling machine has never been used to 1/4 of it's size capacity, as what we build are not typically huge parts.

Just my two cents, having more or less a complete fabrication shop in my garage. Ken Swain and a few of the others have similar setups. If you are serious about building rebreathers, you need machine tools. The king of machine tools is the lathe... buy the best one you can afford in a sensible size and all else will fit into the shop as you need it.

And remember this: For every $100 you spend on a machine tool, you'll spend $1000 on tooling for it. If you can find the "Old Man down the street" who's widow is selling his garage shop, *buy it*. Don't even look at the lathe, who cares what it is. Buy it for the *tooling* and then take what you get as the lathe. You might never figure out what all of it is, but trust me: It'll save you loads of time and money. I bought a second South Bend last year with a TON of tooling for about $1300, kept the tooling, and the next buyer of the *lathe only* for $1000 was delighted with his purchase. Free tooling = good tooling.

"With a file and unlimited time I can make a lathe. With a lathe I can make the world"

Dave

9th January 2007, 03:21	#11 (permalink)
Fort Collins Bob Always Learning. Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Fort Collins Colorado Posts: 112	Re: Quote: (Originally Posted by cramerdn) I think you would be really over weighted even with a 100 lb wing. Pus it looks like a bit of an entanglement hazard. Thanks Cramerdn, that was just the laugh I needed tonight !! Kamsahamnida __________________ Best Regards all ------------------------------------------- Bob Fridell Ouroboros #46 Fort Collins, Colorado
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9th January 2007, 03:50	#12 (permalink)
jeff h New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 99	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Thanks everyone for the replies. At my previous job I had access to full machine shop (12" + lathes, Bridgeports and the all of the tooling). It helped produce a couple of scooters (full size Gavins), rebreather parts, light cans, etc. (perks of a lowly research engineer). Now I just miss having access to all of that. My project list has definitely grown. On the 3-in-1 the swing over bed height is 17" with 31.5" between centers. I'm sure that's big enough to turn out anything I would ever want. The mill might be under powered though. I'll keep you posted on what I find/decide. If I turn out 1 more scooter and a radial scrubber this unit would more than pay for itself. Although placing an order for the Golem scrubber would be much faster and easier. ..
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9th January 2007, 04:01	#13 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Jesus, 17" over bed?! But its only a 5" chuck. That's gonna be an issue; you can bolt a face plate on it and probably a larger chuck, but I bet that ends up being a problem for anything significant. It looks a LOT like the Micromark - you gotta wonder if it came out of the same (Chinese) factory..... bet it did! Quck-change gearbox is nice..... Nice price.. might not be a bad piece for the money.... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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9th January 2007, 04:33	#14 (permalink)
Skipbreather Reads the fine print Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA Posts: 584	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Chuck is WAAAAY too small for anything other than very small Rebreather parts. You’d be far better off buying a 40 year old South Bend 9 inch Model A off of ebay for the same or less money- and it would be nicely tooled if you bid correctly. A combination of chuck capacity, power, and- once you get up to speed- thread variety is key to being able to build whatever dive bits you envision. Ends of my homebuilt Meg radial scrubber were only 6” in diameter but came within just 0.10 inches of the max capacity over the cross slide of my South Bend Heavy 10. Remember, cross slide travel is pretty much useless in most situations if you cannot turn stock over it. A decent lathe and the skills to use it truly liberate the creative mind to craft really slick toys. Freedom from blister packed & bar coded dive gear is a beautiful thing! Just get it right or you’re gonna have a REALLY bad day! Best, Ken __________________ "Entropy RULES! Enjoy the interim."
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9th January 2007, 05:08	#15 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Yeah, that's the other issue that lots of people who aren't used to this stuff miss - its not just swing over bed, its also swing over CROSSSLIDE. If you can't get the crossslide right under a workpiece you're stuck trying to cut with a tool mounted "long" (crossways), and that sucks for anything of any sort of size (and/or is either flatly impossible or downright dangerous) The trick with the big machines though is where you put them. Around here the salt air is murderous and a climate-controlled environment is a MUST. That means either enclosing part of the garage and then climate-controlling it or figuring out how to convert part of the house With REALLY big machines you start to run into power problems. 3 phase is flat not available in residential areas. There are solutions to that but they're both expensive and less than optimal (e.g. VFDs, rotary converters, etc) So for most stuff you want to stick with things you can run off 240. The big machines also require significant care in use. Having something come apart (or get caught) can REALLY ruin your day/week/year/life. Those things have a shizload of rotational momentum in them and they will rip up parts, tools - and you - if you lack appropriate care. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 9th January 2007 at 05:10.
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9th January 2007, 06:01	#17 (permalink)
SINUS Rebreather Aficionado Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: 137km from equator Posts: 196	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) I picked this monster up for $500, but then had to get a BIG 3 phase rotoconverter to run it off of the 240v my buddy has at his shop. wasnt too long til I stripped a tooth off the rack though. this came with a several chucks and one that takes 2 people to lift, plus a bunch of tooling. the deals are out there for sure. Wow, thats a amazingly cheapo medium size lathe for $500. very good deal Ron. Does it come with a 4 jaws chuck? The chuck looks big enough to machine a scrubber head. Looks kinda old .... but have you checked the cross feed backlash? cheers Wei Lan __________________ "Silence Is Always Beautiful"
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9th January 2007, 06:18	#18 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,120	Re: The real rebreather accessory… no 4 jaw, got my eye out for one, I would gladly trade 2-3 jaw chucks for one 4 jaw, someone could be 2 jaws up on that trade : ) That would still leave me with 10 jaws to work with hehee. I need to get the rack repaired and get it tuned up, just havent had time lately. It was a beach getting the thing into the basement shop, it flattened the tires on my trailer, then we broke a 2500lb engine hoist getting it off the trailer, luckily my buddy has a pallet jack we used to get it moved into place. I suspect it will go with the building if he ever sells it, but Im snagging my roto converter if that happens. unit is a moriseki ML-?? and it has a 5 hp 3 phase motor __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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9th January 2007, 06:40	#19 (permalink)
SINUS Rebreather Aficionado Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: 137km from equator Posts: 196	Re: The real rebreather accessory… Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) I need to get the rack repaired and get it tuned up, just havent had time lately. It was a beach getting the thing into the basement shop, it flattened the tires on my trailer, then we broke a 2500lb engine hoist getting it off the trailer, luckily my buddy has a pallet jack we used to get it moved into place. I suspect it will go with the building if he ever sells it, but Im snagging my roto converter if that happens. If your going to use it for manufacturing purposes....I would advised you to have a Two-Axis DRO fitted onto your lathe for efficient operation. Trust me, you will love it. Moving of heavy machinery should be done by professional mover for safety reason. Cheers Wei Lan __________________ "Silence Is Always Beautiful"
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9th January 2007, 13:16	#20 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,913	Re: The real rebreather accessory… OK, guys, right from te floor of the "Little Diveshop of Horrors".... Chinese junk is Chinese junk... with that said, you can work around their tolerance issues and make good parts if you work slowly and carefully. The little "Chinese mini lathes" have their own hobby surrounding them, but unless you want "fixing up the lathe" to be THE hobby, forget them. Combination machines (lathe/mill/drill? suck: They are good for NONE of the three.... get a decent lathe, and then add a milling adapter (Palmgren) for the little milling you'll do, and then when finances and workload dictate, get a small milling machine. DO NOT buy a comnbination machine as you'll use the lathe 100 times for every milling operation you do and you can do simple milling on the lathe anyhow with the milling adapter, so buy a lathe that wrks like a lathe and get set for milling later. If all you are going to make is delrin and brass rebreather parts, look at Sherlne miniature machine tools... cheap, excellent, and can be stored on the shelf of a closet when not in use. These are model makers tools. For making most rebreather parts they are magic. One upon a time I set up a dealership for these and got them wholesale for our rebreather friends. Everyone was pleased with them. Old 9" South Bend lathes are a good home shop size, and are usually (or at least "often enough") 120 volt, and in any case are easy to re-motor. There is a hobby of restoring them so parts are available. They break down for shipment and in fact I sent one by FEDEX (yes really) to Pat Duffy (Oxycheq) in Anchorage Alaska before he moved stateside by disassembling it and sending it "one piece at a time" to him. One thing about these old South Bends: Many were designed for overhead leather belt drive, and have been converted for electric motor and belt drive. Belts are GREAT for the amateur lathe user... WHEN you catch the chuck with the apron for the first time the belt will slip and (hopefully) avoid catastrophe. Belts are far more forgiving than gears. Work great. South Bend "Heavy 10" would be the deluxe home lathe of choice..... The desk-top milling/drilling machines are fine for home use. More sensible than a Bridgeport probably. Get R8 spindle and it'll fit every tool a Bridgeport will hold. I use a worn out South Bend Model C (9") and a pretty nice Bridgeport that I picked up locally. If I had to do it all over again, I would buy a new JET engine lathe and a new JET desktop milling/drilling machine. Sure, the JET stuff is Chinese, and are not a South Bend or a Bridgeport. But then again they are NEW, and at my rate of use it would be EONS before they were as worn out as my South Bend (on whic I can still make good parts). My milling machine has never been used to 1/4 of it's size capacity, as what we build are not typically huge parts. Just my two cents, having more or less a complete fabrication shop in my garage. Ken Swain and a few of the others have similar setups. If you are serious about building rebreathers, you need machine tools. The king of machine tools is the lathe... buy the best one you can afford in a sensible size and all else will fit into the shop as you need it. And remember this: For every $100 you spend on a machine tool, you'll spend $1000 on tooling for it. If you can find the "Old Man down the street" who's widow is selling his garage shop, buy it. Don't even look at the lathe, who cares what it is. Buy it for the tooling and then take what you get as the lathe. You might never figure out what all of it is, but trust me: It'll save you loads of time and money. I bought a second South Bend last year with a TON of tooling for about $1300, kept the tooling, and the next buyer of the lathe only for $1000 was delighted with his purchase. Free tooling = good tooling. "With a file and unlimited time I can make a lathe. With a lathe I can make the world" Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 9th January 2007 at 13:28. Reason: just can't spell for beans...
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