home builder or limited production assembler

rdmmdr · 15th November 2006, 20:36

i was thinking about how there agencies and the dive boats look down at home builders in general. "we are all diving pieces of garbage pieced together from the surplus bin at home depot". so what did we really built, modify or just assemble.

tanks
none of use made our tanks but neither did the factory guys

regs , spgs, hoses
all factory made

back plates and wings
99% all factory made

dsv/ bov
about 90 percent of the home builds i have seen are using factory dsv/bov

mav/opv
all are factory valves

adv
modified second stage regulators, plugging the exhaust port and dialing up the cracking pressure is not a major mod.

fittings
can you say swagelok

clungs
msr bags/ or factory lung not much difference

things that we do build

scrubber canister
not tough to build from pvc pipe and a few fittings/from the local hardware store.

the tee pieces
they seem to be the hardest to get right for the home builder, and the most difficult to built.

kiss/mccr
the ds4 plug is a factory item now and the orifice valve can be had factory or just use a caped needle valve.

eccr
build or buy. how many factory units have somebody else's electronics on them. and lets look at the reliability of those factory electronics.

So the term homebuilt is wrong, we are limited production assemblers. using well tested materials, supported by high quality vendors. And the cert agencies should get over it along with the charter operators. IMHO

yes i am finished ranting now!
rick

Duncan Price · 15th November 2006, 21:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

i was thinking about how there agencies and the dive boats look down at home builders in general. "we are all diving pieces of garbage pieced together from the surplus bin at home depot". so what did we really built, modify or just assemble.

The only bits I (or my alcoholic lacky in the worshop - will work for booze) made were the end plates for the filter stack. Everything else came from (in no particular order):

B&Q (read "Home Depot" but the checkout is slower).
Swagelok (Manchester - I am now personal friends with the telephone operator)
DANshop.de (they speak English better than I do)
Caving Supplies (miserable b'stards)
Ortlieb (Taunton Lesure)
Forrest Wilson (top bloke)
Lloyds/TSB (for funding)
etc.

At the end of the day, we all use stuff made by a fourth party - even major manufacturers farm out components to subcontractors - for a truely "homebuilt" effect I suppose I could synthesise the polymer from my body parts....

Genesis · 15th November 2006, 22:51

The whole "homebuilt" thing is IMHO a total sop and copout.

Why? Because by and large its an attempt to give a boat/site owner someone to sue (or to try to redirect any suit aimed at them) if you cack yourself while divnig the kit on their boat/site.

Now this is BS for a number of reasons in the US at minimum, not the least of which is the exhaustive waiver that all these boats/sites shove under your nose and insist you sign before you can dive.

Never mind that your selection of kit cannot manage to reach even ordinary negligence on their part - they had no voice in its construction, they had no hand in your selection of that particular piece of kit, they had no hand in its setup, and unless their "divemaster" diddled your valves they had no hand in your gearing up! Indeed you stepped off the boat/platform/stairs under your own power.

So - what "negligence" could they possibly have? This is not a matter of "head in the sand" - it is simply competence - you can't possibly expect a boat or site owner to be able to look INSIDE your gear to see if it is properly constructed, maintained, etc. Yet that's exactly what has to be done to pass judgement - you would need to understand exactly how something is put together, and have the knowledge to be able to evaluate it - now boat and site owners have to be mechanical and electrical engineers, see you run a sensor check under hyperbaric conditions, etc?

Next, how about pieces of kit like the KISS? It comes as a box of parts! So do some others. Is this really any different than, for example, the K1? If I publish the plans for the scrubber can and sell the controller, how far removed from a KISS is the K1? You buy a box of parts in both cases, and you still go to the dive store for regs, a backplate, wing, regs, etc.....

Add to this that in terms of some manufacturers, there is basically no way to sue. Take any non-US manufacturer of a device being used in the United States. How 'ya gonna sue? More importantly, how do you propose to enforce a judgment? You might get a $10m civil judgment against some foreign company but good luck on collecting it! Sue in the maker's country? That's an even bigger stretch - the maker can easily argue that there's no "nexus" for your action in their nation (especially if they shipped to a distributor and THEY sold it to you!) The same applies to someone diving a US-built kit outside the United States.

Finally, let's look at realities here. Some commercial bits of kit seem to have death rates that approach 3%. How many homebuilders have cack'd themselves on their units? If you count the heavily-modified Inspiration that apparently was involved in one death, that's one. Does anyone have another?

We keep allowing, as a community, these practices. That is, we keep allowing people who are by definition in an adversarial relationship with us (as ALL commercial transactions are to some extent) to set these policies and tighten the screws one half-turn at a time, instead of standing up as a community and saying no way, not with my money you don't!

This could be fixed quite quickly if divers simply refused to patronize any site that plays these games. If we, as rebreather divers, not only banded together but also solicited OC divers to join us, by leading them to understand that this can happen to them too, we can fix it. Economic pressure is a wonderful thing.

As just one example, today all the agencies think you need a completely different class for EACH individual rebreather. Before you say "that's reasonable", think carefully about it - is it reasonable to expect me to take a class before I can use a VR3 instead of a Suunto in gauge mode - and produce a card to that effect? Do not all CCRs operate on the same basic principle, just as all dive computers - or OC regulators - do? Hmmmmmm....

Duncan Price · 15th November 2006, 23:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

The whole "homebuilt" thing is IMHO a total sop and copout.

Hey Gen chill out like me (high ppCH3CH2OH).

I sympathise and one reason I went down the DIY route was because I have no generally recognised dive certs. I learned CCR ops from Rick Stanton who learned from Rich Pyle/Bill Stone. Rick's last words to me on my firstv CCR open water (well it was flooded mine) following my 5 mins intro to the RS 2000 (manual mixed gas chest mount) were "don't die".*

IMNSHO homebuilders are safer than other Rebreather divers - for chris's sake they designed and built the freaking thing!

So far as I know there has only been one fatality on a homebuild (the guy who died on a RB80 clone - this was not built his own hand so might be discounted). Readers correct me if I'm wrong. The stats on other units do not look so good...

* there was also the advice from She Who Must Not Be Mentioned:

Breathe In/Breathe Out,
Add Gas - As Required.

(too much plonk - time to log out)

rdmmdr · 15th November 2006, 23:39

thanks for the support you guys, just got back form the hardware store with the parts to make a cell checker, boiling them now to get rid of the oils. will post pic in the morn. total cost 35$. Is thrity five dollars worth your life, you decide. and what manufacture has a cell checker with thier kit. mabey us homebuilders/ limited production run assemblers arn't all crazy.

Genesis · 15th November 2006, 23:43

I don't think any of the homebuilders are crazy.

By definition if you build one of these things you have to think about the ways it can kill you, and decide what trade-offs you are going to make.

This process essentially never happens with purchased kit, if for no other reason than you're not privvy to the details of the matrix that the builder has!

PaulTG2 · 16th November 2006, 00:00

Hello,

You guys didn't build your own cylinders or 1st stages and you call yourself home builders! Geesh.....

You know, if the tanks don't explode at least once during the testing you're not pushing the edge of the envelope...

;D

-Paul
(aka" Mr. two fingers")

shell-back · 16th November 2006, 00:17

easy guys , If you have a unit that is divable and have the funds to get it to market, there is a way !

Karl thanks for the drinks

If you are at a point in your build that would allow you to write a manual and send a few protos to guys that have been diving a assortment of rebreathers that have passed Thur the gates you speak of.
It really not that hard of a process.
Late the night of the RBW party a small huddle of whose who ( I like to call them the poor and nameless) in the Rebreather industry stood around and discussed informally whats to come in the future , I wish I had a video of it. I can say that all have taken notice of the possibility that "home-build" makers can and have produced really nice Rebreather's.

Keep at it and never settle for what you have or what you hear from the industry at large. Next years event will have a nice place for you guys to bask in the spot light for a moment.

I expect big things to come in the next year

rdmmdr · 16th November 2006, 00:19

paul
i am sorry that the tanks did not exploded during testing but i did have an o2 fire with the first rig i built. is that cool enough.
ps try explaining that to the landlord
rick

**Lake_Tahoe_Diver** · 16th November 2006, 01:07

There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather.

Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit.

So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic?

15th November 2006, 20:36	#1 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	home builder or limited production assembler i was thinking about how there agencies and the dive boats look down at home builders in general. "we are all diving pieces of garbage pieced together from the surplus bin at home depot". so what did we really built, modify or just assemble. tanks none of use made our tanks but neither did the factory guys regs , spgs, hoses all factory made back plates and wings 99% all factory made dsv/ bov about 90 percent of the home builds i have seen are using factory dsv/bov mav/opv all are factory valves adv modified second stage regulators, plugging the exhaust port and dialing up the cracking pressure is not a major mod. fittings can you say swagelok clungs msr bags/ or factory lung not much difference things that we do build scrubber canister not tough to build from pvc pipe and a few fittings/from the local hardware store. the tee pieces they seem to be the hardest to get right for the home builder, and the most difficult to built. kiss/mccr the ds4 plug is a factory item now and the orifice valve can be had factory or just use a caped needle valve. eccr build or buy. how many factory units have somebody else's electronics on them. and lets look at the reliability of those factory electronics. So the term homebuilt is wrong, we are limited production assemblers. using well tested materials, supported by high quality vendors. And the cert agencies should get over it along with the charter operators. IMHO yes i am finished ranting now! rick
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15th November 2006, 21:37	#2 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 335	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) i was thinking about how there agencies and the dive boats look down at home builders in general. "we are all diving pieces of garbage pieced together from the surplus bin at home depot". so what did we really built, modify or just assemble. The only bits I (or my alcoholic lacky in the worshop - will work for booze) made were the end plates for the filter stack. Everything else came from (in no particular order): B&Q (read "Home Depot" but the checkout is slower). Swagelok (Manchester - I am now personal friends with the telephone operator) DANshop.de (they speak English better than I do) Caving Supplies (miserable b'stards) Ortlieb (Taunton Lesure) Forrest Wilson (top bloke) Lloyds/TSB (for funding) etc. At the end of the day, we all use stuff made by a fourth party - even major manufacturers farm out components to subcontractors - for a truely "homebuilt" effect I suppose I could synthesise the polymer from my body parts....
(Offline)

15th November 2006, 22:51	#3 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: home builder or limited production assembler The whole "homebuilt" thing is IMHO a total sop and copout. Why? Because by and large its an attempt to give a boat/site owner someone to sue (or to try to redirect any suit aimed at them) if you cack yourself while divnig the kit on their boat/site. Now this is BS for a number of reasons in the US at minimum, not the least of which is the exhaustive waiver that all these boats/sites shove under your nose and insist you sign before you can dive. Never mind that your selection of kit cannot manage to reach even ordinary negligence on their part - they had no voice in its construction, they had no hand in your selection of that particular piece of kit, they had no hand in its setup, and unless their "divemaster" diddled your valves they had no hand in your gearing up! Indeed you stepped off the boat/platform/stairs under your own power. So - what "negligence" could they possibly have? This is not a matter of "head in the sand" - it is simply competence - you can't possibly expect a boat or site owner to be able to look INSIDE your gear to see if it is properly constructed, maintained, etc. Yet that's exactly what has to be done to pass judgement - you would need to understand exactly how something is put together, and have the knowledge to be able to evaluate it - now boat and site owners have to be mechanical and electrical engineers, see you run a sensor check under hyperbaric conditions, etc? Next, how about pieces of kit like the KISS? It comes as a box of parts! So do some others. Is this really any different than, for example, the K1? If I publish the plans for the scrubber can and sell the controller, how far removed from a KISS is the K1? You buy a box of parts in both cases, and you still go to the dive store for regs, a backplate, wing, regs, etc..... Add to this that in terms of some manufacturers, there is basically no way to sue. Take any non-US manufacturer of a device being used in the United States. How 'ya gonna sue? More importantly, how do you propose to enforce a judgment? You might get a $10m civil judgment against some foreign company but good luck on collecting it! Sue in the maker's country? That's an even bigger stretch - the maker can easily argue that there's no "nexus" for your action in their nation (especially if they shipped to a distributor and THEY sold it to you!) The same applies to someone diving a US-built kit outside the United States. Finally, let's look at realities here. Some commercial bits of kit seem to have death rates that approach 3%. How many homebuilders have cack'd themselves on their units? If you count the heavily-modified Inspiration that apparently was involved in one death, that's one. Does anyone have another? We keep allowing, as a community, these practices. That is, we keep allowing people who are by definition in an adversarial relationship with us (as ALL commercial transactions are to some extent) to set these policies and tighten the screws one half-turn at a time, instead of standing up as a community and saying no way, not with my money you don't! This could be fixed quite quickly if divers simply refused to patronize any site that plays these games. If we, as rebreather divers, not only banded together but also solicited OC divers to join us, by leading them to understand that this can happen to them too, we can fix it. Economic pressure is a wonderful thing. As just one example, today all the agencies think you need a completely different class for EACH individual rebreather. Before you say "that's reasonable", think carefully about it - is it reasonable to expect me to take a class before I can use a VR3 instead of a Suunto in gauge mode - and produce a card to that effect? Do not all CCRs operate on the same basic principle, just as all dive computers - or OC regulators - do? Hmmmmmm.... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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15th November 2006, 23:33	#4 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 335	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) The whole "homebuilt" thing is IMHO a total sop and copout. Hey Gen chill out like me (high ppCH3CH2OH). I sympathise and one reason I went down the DIY route was because I have no generally recognised dive certs. I learned CCR ops from Rick Stanton who learned from Rich Pyle/Bill Stone. Rick's last words to me on my firstv CCR open water (well it was flooded mine) following my 5 mins intro to the RS 2000 (manual mixed gas chest mount) were "don't die".* IMNSHO homebuilders are safer than other Rebreather divers - for chris's sake they designed and built the freaking thing! So far as I know there has only been one fatality on a homebuild (the guy who died on a RB80 clone - this was not built his own hand so might be discounted). Readers correct me if I'm wrong. The stats on other units do not look so good... * there was also the advice from She Who Must Not Be Mentioned: Breathe In/Breathe Out, Add Gas - As Required. (too much plonk - time to log out)
(Offline)

15th November 2006, 23:39	#5 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: home builder or limited production assembler thanks for the support you guys, just got back form the hardware store with the parts to make a cell checker, boiling them now to get rid of the oils. will post pic in the morn. total cost 35$. Is thrity five dollars worth your life, you decide. and what manufacture has a cell checker with thier kit. mabey us homebuilders/ limited production run assemblers arn't all crazy.
(Offline)

15th November 2006, 23:43	#6 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: home builder or limited production assembler I don't think any of the homebuilders are crazy. By definition if you build one of these things you have to think about the ways it can kill you, and decide what trade-offs you are going to make. This process essentially never happens with purchased kit, if for no other reason than you're not privvy to the details of the matrix that the builder has! __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

16th November 2006, 00:00	#7 (permalink)
PaulTG2 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 517	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Hello, You guys didn't build your own cylinders or 1st stages and you call yourself home builders! Geesh..... You know, if the tanks don't explode at least once during the testing you're not pushing the edge of the envelope... ;D -Paul (aka" Mr. two fingers")
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16th November 2006, 00:17	#8 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 475	Re: home builder or limited production assembler easy guys , If you have a unit that is divable and have the funds to get it to market, there is a way ! Karl thanks for the drinks If you are at a point in your build that would allow you to write a manual and send a few protos to guys that have been diving a assortment of rebreathers that have passed Thur the gates you speak of. It really not that hard of a process. Late the night of the RBW party a small huddle of whose who ( I like to call them the poor and nameless) in the Rebreather industry stood around and discussed informally whats to come in the future , I wish I had a video of it. I can say that all have taken notice of the possibility that "home-build" makers can and have produced really nice Rebreather's. Keep at it and never settle for what you have or what you hear from the industry at large. Next years event will have a nice place for you guys to bask in the spot light for a moment. I expect big things to come in the next year __________________ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. ----Daniel Boorstin Billy Beal SDITDI IT #3507 RBW FIGJAM commitee member
(Offline)

16th November 2006, 00:19	#9 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: home builder or limited production assembler paul i am sorry that the tanks did not exploded during testing but i did have an o2 fire with the first rig i built. is that cool enough. ps try explaining that to the landlord rick
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16th November 2006, 01:07	#10 (permalink)
Lake_Tahoe_Diver Enjoying the silence Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Reno, Nv. (Lake Tahoe) Posts: 196	Re: home builder or limited production assembler There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather. Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit. So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic? __________________ Scuba Diving,the only sport where it is good to be in over your head....
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