home builder or limited production assembler

Dave Sutton

Rhode Island, actually. Better access to the U-853, Grecian, Bass, and the more northern offshore wrecks. Doria is a straight sail east. Different than NJ, similar but I think better. Less dived.

Back to topic... but not all dive boats discourage homebuilt rebreathers, never mind factory ones.


Dave

__________________
"Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com

Genesis

Well, RI, NJ, whatever - next time I'm in the NE and looking to dive, you know where I'm going to show up!

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

Dave Sutton

Well:

How about a RBW-Member only dive charter next year? Make it a fun weekend event, do a shallow day so the Boat Captain (me) can figure out if the *builders* are also capable *divers* and then take the next day out to the U-Boat (130FSW) ?? Alternative would be to go dive the U-Boat the first day and the BASS (huge US Sub) the second, in 160FSW. But I would not want to limit the trip to "deep divers only" so maybe "Plan A" is better.

We'll teach those other boats how it's done... ;-)

July is the best month for this weather-wise. Just need to look at the Doria Trip schedule to see no interferance.


Dave

__________________
"Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com

Genesis

Sounds reasonable to me!

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

wookie

Charter boat operaters understand that rebreathers dont kill divers (with very few exeptions), divers kill themselves and some of them do it on rebreathers. Dead divers do not sue charter boat operators. Dead divers wives and children sue charter boat operators. Dead divers promise that they won't sue, even if the charter boat captain runs them over, dead divers wives and children make no such promise. Releases in the States of Florida and California are binding and usually held up in court. Releases in the UK are usually not necessary, but are becoming more so. Releases in Texas are most often used to give the judge and plaintiff's attorneys a good laugh. Vessel liability insurance companies hate rebreathers. Dave, I would love to know who provides your in-water liability coverage, because I want some of what you got. I think "limited production units" would be very cool to have on the boat, too, but since my insurance carrier has the deepest pockets of any involved party, I think I will let them dictate who brings what kind of rebreather on my vessel. When a manufacturer builds and markets a stock unit in the United States, they tend to carry some sort of manufacturers liability insurance. Homebuilders usually don't. As soon as a unit isn't "stock" anymore, the charter operator now has the deepest pockets available, and we hate getting sued. S. Marc hit the nail right on the head.

Dave Sutton

Insurance? That's *the* problem! .... get rid of it. Its just a big bullseye on your head.

Run bare of insurance, make yourself less attractive to litigation, and then no sensible lawyer will work on contingency because even if they get a judgement (not likely if you comport yourself in a professional manner) they *still* aren't going to collect anything. Let any family member who wants to sue need to pay legal fees out of their own pockets *in advance* and nobody will sue. Trust me on this: It works in aviation and it works here too. Having liability insurance *guarantees* litigation. Not having it almost guarantees that nobody will litigate. Lawyers go where the sure money is, litigating against someone without insurance is a loosing game.

No deep pockets = no pickpockets.

Second issue: The dive boat is only responsible for *one* thing: A safe ride to a lattitude and longitude, a delay there with a solid anchor to the bottom, and a safe ride back. *Nothing* more. The less you involve yourself in making decisions as to what is safe and what is not, the *less* liability you hold. I'm not going to tell anyone what is safe and what is not. I drive the boat... you dive. I don't care if you bring a garden hose and a lobster trap bouy... if you can keep one end of the hose above the surface and suck the air down to 300 feet, I don't care. Bring a divemaster for your charter if you like: Let *him* accept the responsibility of allowing or disallowing a certain diver or a certain type of gear. Keep me out of it. I do not provide divemaster services, and I have zero liability as a result. Once I involve myself in letting "x" and disallowing "y" any lawyer worth his salt will try to make a case that since I accepted responsibility for deciding to allow "x", when a diver gets hurt doing "x" I am the one who said it was OK and thus I am liable. Sorry, I don't make those decisions. So bring your piece of trash homebuilt rebreather.... even a layman on the jury is going to "get" that the idiot died on his own piece of crap and *he* ought to have known better.... after all *he* built it...

Bottom line: I'd rather have homebuilders, as they *know their rigs* and perversely are *easier to defend against in court*.



I earn a substantial part of my income as an expert in aviation litigation cases. What I am writing here is not based on speculation, it's just the way it is. Cut off the insurance, let a LLC own the boat, put the house in your wifes name, and go forth and never worry again. Sue me? Good luck.... I don't own a thing.


Dave

__________________
"Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com

Genesis

In general there are two ways to deal with the risk of lawsuits, with various hybrids of the two approaches:

1. Buy enough insurance that you don't personally (or your corporation as an entity) get hit. This only works once, because the first time the insurance company has to pay out (even if they ultimately prevail and only buy lawyer time) you'll find that the insurance price suddenly jumps to "unobtanium." All forms of "listening to insurance companies" to dictate policy ultimately come down to #1, and you only have to be wrong once to be left without that altnerative ever again.

2. Structure the business so there is no point to suing you, and follow all of the laws strictly to the letter so that the corporate veil cannot be pierced. Then let people sue if they want to. This approach has the benefit of not carrying with it the insane insurance costs that often come with approach #1, nor do you have someone else dictating to you how to run your business. If there are specific risks (e.g. diving) you can buy standard business insurance that has a named exclusion for the diving side so you're covered for things that you really ought to be responsible for in some way (e.g. you have an electrical fault that kills a worker in your shop) yet you don't have to play by their rules with regards to diving ops.

The second approach works mostly because the plaintiff's lawyer is going to do as much investigation as they are able before they file. Essentially all of the guys in the plaintiff's bar work on a percentage of the recovered money, and if there's not a snowball's chance in hell that they're going to get anything they either won't take the case or won't file.

When a surviving spouse is told that they're going to have to front $25,000 in order to persue the case at all, and by the way, that's just the retainer to get through the first round of discovery (with the expected total legal outlay to get to trial reaching or exceeding six figures), and the business they wish to sue has a negative net worth (meaning you might get a nice big fat judgment but won't be able to collect any of it!) only those who like tilting at windmills will attempt it.

It is not all that terribly difficult to structure a corporation this way and doing so is perfectly legal. Seek competent finanical and legal advise on how to do this before you incur the liability (trying to do it AFTER someone gets hurt risks your strategy being unwound as a "fraudulent transfer")

(Damn - I see Dave understands it too! BTW, I ran a corporation for more than a decade. Number of lawsuits filed against it? Zero. Guess why? We were very unattractive targets.... )

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

rdmmdr

while alot of people think that california is the land of litigation, the dive boat operator has a limited duty that they are bound to. deliver the client to the site and return the client back from the site. keep the vessel in the repair as required by the coast guard. and dont do anthing really stupid like forgeting to pick up the diver. the operator has no responsiiblity for the skill level of he diver, or the usefullness of the divers equipment. california like most other states allow for anyone to sue. The suit would be thrown out on summary jugdement if it is not proven that the operator had a duty to the diver to protect him for his own gear. you have more chance of being sued from a bad set of boarding stairs then from allowing rebreathers on the boat. dave your check out dive, by the nature of the fact the you are saying the diver is good for this, could expose you to suit because you have said that the diver in question has the skills requirted for the dive. You stop being a skipper and start being an instructor. just a warning
rick

cstmwrks

Sadly putting the house in the wifes name is about the LAST thing 50% of the men would ever do in there asset protection strategy... Instant DIVORCE. Nothing like being stabbed in the back by the one closest to you.

Dave, you ever come up with a homebuilt diver charter I may have to give it a try. I'll take the chicken poo shallow run. I have not been past 30 feet in forever. Or at least since I was sentanced to life in h*ll... Idaho I meant to say.

Genesis

Its not that hard to do this right.

Set up an LLC or formal "C" Corporation. Mortgage the shiz out of the boat, so its worth nothing (no net worth) Hold no other assets in the corporation - pay yourself a proper salary. Play no "fast and loose" games with the rules for operating a corporation - keep all your books correctly, keep the minutes, issue your capital stock if a corporation properly, etc. Take all actions by the company in the name of the company - never as you, always as "Dive Company X".

If you're concerned with penetration of the corporate veil (pretty tough to do) then go further and place all your personal holdings in a trust. The trust is a "legal person" - separate from you.

Hold no insurance on the corporation beyond that required by law (e.g. worker's comp)

Now let 'em sue. There's nothing to get. The plaintiff's bar will figure this out REAL FAST - there goes their desire to press the suit, because the corporation is worth nothing - you can get a judgment but it stops at the corporate door, and there's nothing there to take. Since essentially all of these lawyers work on contingency, they're not going to invest hundreds of hours (or more) in a case when they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting paid! They'll tell the potential plaintiff that its very simple - they're happy to sue but they want a $30,000 retainer in advance, their time is $300 an hour, and they figure it'll be 500 hours to get through discovery and to trial - and another 500 for the trial if it goes that far.

So unless the plaintiff wants to front $30k right away, have another $120k standing by through the discovery process, and then ANOTHER $150k for the trial - for a total of $300,000 - there's no way they can proceed. And oh, the equity in the boat - the only asset to recover? There's $5,000 there - and that's it.

Poof - end of problem.

The minute you take out a $1m (or more) diving liability policy you've advertised loud and clear that there's a million reasons to come after you. Ever notice how these cases almost always settle for the insurance amount? Why is that? Its because that's easy money - and there's usually nothing more! Take that away and suddenly the lawsuit disappears too, because there's no profit in it.

Don't do this without legal and accounting/tax advice - there are very specific formalities that must be strictly observed, or the protections you craft can be penetrated fairly easily.

It is not all that difficult to run a company in such a way that you, personally, cannot be attacked - at least not beyond where a motion for summary judgment can be filed to put a stop to it.

PS: This ain't legal advice - I pay for it when I need it, and you should too!

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket