home builder or limited production assembler

rdmmdr · 16th November 2006, 01:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver)

There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather.

Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit.

So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic?

why not

i personally carry ten million dollars of liability insurance, the dive boat operator has no liability for me diving a untested unit with the current waivers in place. forget what a stupid jury will give a plaintiff, the case would be demised on summary judgment, and never go to court. and the dive boat operator would get damages from any lawyer who tied to sue.
rick

Duncan Price · 16th November 2006, 05:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

paul
i am sorry that the tanks did not exploded during testing but i did have an o2 fire with the first rig i built. is that cool enough.
ps try explaining that to the landlord
rick

Fantastic - I'll put up the video of me borrowing O2 from work later...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver)

There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather.

Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit.

So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic?

Stuff that! I'll just build my own boat - better still an ROV so I don't have to get cold and wet.

Genesis · 16th November 2006, 06:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver)

There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather.

Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit.

So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic?

I don't care if they go for that logic or not -that is precisely the standard in the industry. Once I am comfident I can actually dive the K1, you can bet I'm going to do that.

"The diver named below has demonstrated competence on the described unit according to the standards of the manufacturer and thus has earned certification on same."

(And people thought I was kidding when I said I had every intention of causing this industry a LOT of heartburn a year or so ago when I started the K1's development!)

decoweenie · 16th November 2006, 10:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

(And people thought I was kidding when I said I had every intention of causing this industry a LOT of heartburn a year or so ago when I started the K1's development!)

What heartburn have you exactly caused this industry ?

I wasn't there at the party, but no one wanted to dive your unit must mean something...

York · 16th November 2006, 11:35

back to the original point, I find it funnny when people consider themselves homebuilders because they "modified" a strap, or swapped a shell for a cage.
Here is what I see happening most:

lots of "homebrew" mechanics - a strap here, another fitting there

very little in terms of electronics, and even less in more "advanced" coding

However, I came to terms with the danger even little changes might induce. A while back I also thought "changing xyz, big deal ...", but now realize that even little changes usually have implications. Bench-testing and pool-testing is mendatory to some degree. Maintain common sense of course.
Interesting point towards the incident statistics. Would that lead to the conclusion that the training offered by agencies is inadequate?

I suspect that someone willing to even change just a strap is mentally leaving the path of other people and willing to fight his own way through the jungle. So, as little as it might seem, even the guy swapping a strap can be considered a home-builder - to some degree. A "limited production assembler" would be more someone who was told what to do, and does so without really understanding why or what the consequences are.

The reality also tells me that the difference between a homebrew and small, specialized company is in the amount of testing done before "release". IMHO I see a number of "specialized companies" who are nothing more than homebuilders. The idea and first prototype is less than 10% of the total work required to get something of quality.

No?

Joerg

lizardland · 16th November 2006, 13:17

Having a collection of individual parts which work is not the same as having an assembly of those parts which works.

I dive a KISS (though I've dived my own homebuilds in the past) so taking that as an example... if I have a boatload of KISS divers I can be fairly certain of consistent quality amongst the units. You don't have that with homebuilds. 12 homebuilt units from 12 divers will be totally different.

I've seen some homebuilds that are really nice bits of kit and I've seen some that are absolutely dreadful (at least a couple of mine

). If I was running a commercial operation I'd be uncomfortable having homebuilds because I simply wouldn't have the time to get familiar with each unit enough to make a judgement as to whether or not I'd want to risk my livelihood on it.

Sad but true that our world is run by lawyers. Most boat skippers I know would rather know their business is there tomorrow than make a homebuilder happy and realistically I agree with that.

Genesis · 16th November 2006, 14:42

IMHO electronics are the easy part. Its hard to get them very small, but really - do you care? At some point you reach where you can't read the displays!

To really miniaturize electronics you need to build them in surface-mount, which is great if you've got the facilities - or if you're ordering 100 of something. I could probably build a surface-mount board up from scratch when I was 20 and have it work, but I'm 43 now and neither my eyesight nor my hands are as good as they were when I was 20, and we're talking about VERY tight tolerances mechanically here. Realistically - how many of us have a wave-soldering machine? That's what I thought. So I build in through-hole, with a few SMT components that aren't TOO hard to work with (line-side driver, voltage regulators, etc)

I can get 10 small 4-layer PCBs made for right around $200, which isn't bad - and a huge part of that fee (3/4 of it!) is setup charges. For 2-layer its MUCH cheaper, but when we're talking analog there are real advantages to the 4-layer board (noise immunity!) You start shiopping out small runs of SMT boards and your backside gets sore from the per-unit price you pay - especially if there are mistakes or needed changes discovered in testing!

I didn't find assembling the parts into a working device very difficult. Yes, I am still making tweaks to the electronics, but it was surprisingly easy to get the controller to behave well, and the loop wasn't that hard either. If you've got any sort of process-control background in terms of electronics design an eCCR is really quite simple from an electronics point of view.

Yes, the US is the land of lawyers, and I'm not sure I'd change that - they have their uses. But - the site/boat owners already take care of the liability issue quite well with waivers. I don't know what sort of case law exists in other states, but in Florida a dive waiver is basically impossible to penetrate. I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule, but they are few and far between. When it comes to land-based sites that do not charge fees for entrance or use there is even absolute statutory immunity from suit in this state - so the concept of the need for a waiver to dive on private (or public) land where you're not charged to do so is silly. Extending this protection at a statutory level to all diving operations (for fee or not) would not be very difficult - the hunting folks got the original language written, and we could too if we made it a priority.

But - nobody wants to take that on. I have some theories on that, but they're a bit off the track of this thread......

S. Marc · 17th November 2006, 00:00

Okay, my 2 cents worth.

My personal belief is that the only time a boat / charter operator should face liability is if they are grossly negligent (this term may have different meanings in different jurisdictions). For example, you get run over by the boat, left at the dive site and drown, get food poisoning from the lunch they serve, your bailout or diluent tank contains high levels of carbon monoxide and you die (yeah, the boats' compressor filled your tank), etc...

I am not sure what the law is in the US, but in Canada there is a legal principle called voluntary assumption of risk (volenti non fit injuria - yeah, my latin sucks). At its most fundamental level, it means that if you voluntarily assume a risk, and you know what that risk is, you ought not be compensated for any damages you incur, you know, death, paralysis, loss of income, that sort of thing.

I think (I could be very wrong) that the main problem stems not from the actual or perceived liability on the part of the dive boat operator, but rather from what the insurance carriers these dive operators have might want or impose. They may be breaching their policy if they let homebuilders dive rigs from their boat, who knows? I have never read a diver charter commercial liability policy.

I think (and again I could be very wrong), that a secondary, issue may be that the dive operators may have large deductibles and or increased premiums if there is a claim, regardless of the claim's outcome. The third issue may be their concern for getting a bad reputation if someone bites it while diving from their boat.

I do agree however, that with all the aftermarket goodies around, both for scuba and rebreathers, there are very few stock factory rigs out there. Using different sensors, adding aftermarket sensors, aftermarket PPO2 montors and guages, backplates, stands, tanks, you name it, they all will have some effect on the unit.

That being said I think it sucks that I wouldn't be allowed to dive my modified/limited production manufacturer Biopack 240 through a dive charter

Marc

**Dave Sutton** · 18th November 2006, 00:28

Speaking now as a dive boat captain:

(1): I prefer rebreather divers aboard EXPLORER (they take up less space).

(2): I prefer homebuilders, as they know what their rig is all about.

So if anyone needs a place to dive, come on aboard!

Dave Sutton

Genesis · 18th November 2006, 03:52

New Jersey? Cool - next time I'm up that way..... bet on it

16th November 2006, 01:53	#11 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver) There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather. Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit. So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic? why not i personally carry ten million dollars of liability insurance, the dive boat operator has no liability for me diving a untested unit with the current waivers in place. forget what a stupid jury will give a plaintiff, the case would be demised on summary judgment, and never go to court. and the dive boat operator would get damages from any lawyer who tied to sue. rick
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16th November 2006, 05:57	#12 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 335	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) paul i am sorry that the tanks did not exploded during testing but i did have an o2 fire with the first rig i built. is that cool enough. ps try explaining that to the landlord rick Fantastic - I'll put up the video of me borrowing O2 from work later... Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver) There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather. Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit. So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic? Stuff that! I'll just build my own boat - better still an ROV so I don't have to get cold and wet.
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16th November 2006, 06:04	#13 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by Lake_Tahoe_Diver) There is no such thing as a home builder in the Rebreather world. I would prefer to call each one of you privately owned small manufacturing companies that produce very unique and highly specialized Rebreather. Following this logic you could also claim that you were trained from the manufacture and produce your own Cert cards for the unit. So do you think the boat operators would go for that line of logic? I don't care if they go for that logic or not -that is precisely the standard in the industry. Once I am comfident I can actually dive the K1, you can bet I'm going to do that. "The diver named below has demonstrated competence on the described unit according to the standards of the manufacturer and thus has earned certification on same." (And people thought I was kidding when I said I had every intention of causing this industry a LOT of heartburn a year or so ago when I started the K1's development!) __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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16th November 2006, 10:13	#14 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) (And people thought I was kidding when I said I had every intention of causing this industry a LOT of heartburn a year or so ago when I started the K1's development!) What heartburn have you exactly caused this industry ? I wasn't there at the party, but no one wanted to dive your unit must mean something... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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16th November 2006, 11:35	#15 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: home builder or limited production assembler back to the original point, I find it funnny when people consider themselves homebuilders because they "modified" a strap, or swapped a shell for a cage. Here is what I see happening most: lots of "homebrew" mechanics - a strap here, another fitting there very little in terms of electronics, and even less in more "advanced" coding However, I came to terms with the danger even little changes might induce. A while back I also thought "changing xyz, big deal ...", but now realize that even little changes usually have implications. Bench-testing and pool-testing is mendatory to some degree. Maintain common sense of course. Interesting point towards the incident statistics. Would that lead to the conclusion that the training offered by agencies is inadequate? I suspect that someone willing to even change just a strap is mentally leaving the path of other people and willing to fight his own way through the jungle. So, as little as it might seem, even the guy swapping a strap can be considered a home-builder - to some degree. A "limited production assembler" would be more someone who was told what to do, and does so without really understanding why or what the consequences are. The reality also tells me that the difference between a homebrew and small, specialized company is in the amount of testing done before "release". IMHO I see a number of "specialized companies" who are nothing more than homebuilders. The idea and first prototype is less than 10% of the total work required to get something of quality. No? Joerg
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16th November 2006, 13:17	#16 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,390	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Having a collection of individual parts which work is not the same as having an assembly of those parts which works. I dive a KISS (though I've dived my own homebuilds in the past) so taking that as an example... if I have a boatload of KISS divers I can be fairly certain of consistent quality amongst the units. You don't have that with homebuilds. 12 homebuilt units from 12 divers will be totally different. I've seen some homebuilds that are really nice bits of kit and I've seen some that are absolutely dreadful (at least a couple of mine ). If I was running a commercial operation I'd be uncomfortable having homebuilds because I simply wouldn't have the time to get familiar with each unit enough to make a judgement as to whether or not I'd want to risk my livelihood on it. Sad but true that our world is run by lawyers. Most boat skippers I know would rather know their business is there tomorrow than make a homebuilder happy and realistically I agree with that. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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16th November 2006, 14:42	#17 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: home builder or limited production assembler IMHO electronics are the easy part. Its hard to get them very small, but really - do you care? At some point you reach where you can't read the displays! To really miniaturize electronics you need to build them in surface-mount, which is great if you've got the facilities - or if you're ordering 100 of something. I could probably build a surface-mount board up from scratch when I was 20 and have it work, but I'm 43 now and neither my eyesight nor my hands are as good as they were when I was 20, and we're talking about VERY tight tolerances mechanically here. Realistically - how many of us have a wave-soldering machine? That's what I thought. So I build in through-hole, with a few SMT components that aren't TOO hard to work with (line-side driver, voltage regulators, etc) I can get 10 small 4-layer PCBs made for right around $200, which isn't bad - and a huge part of that fee (3/4 of it!) is setup charges. For 2-layer its MUCH cheaper, but when we're talking analog there are real advantages to the 4-layer board (noise immunity!) You start shiopping out small runs of SMT boards and your backside gets sore from the per-unit price you pay - especially if there are mistakes or needed changes discovered in testing! I didn't find assembling the parts into a working device very difficult. Yes, I am still making tweaks to the electronics, but it was surprisingly easy to get the controller to behave well, and the loop wasn't that hard either. If you've got any sort of process-control background in terms of electronics design an eCCR is really quite simple from an electronics point of view. Yes, the US is the land of lawyers, and I'm not sure I'd change that - they have their uses. But - the site/boat owners already take care of the liability issue quite well with waivers. I don't know what sort of case law exists in other states, but in Florida a dive waiver is basically impossible to penetrate. I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule, but they are few and far between. When it comes to land-based sites that do not charge fees for entrance or use there is even absolute statutory immunity from suit in this state - so the concept of the need for a waiver to dive on private (or public) land where you're not charged to do so is silly. Extending this protection at a statutory level to all diving operations (for fee or not) would not be very difficult - the hunting folks got the original language written, and we could too if we made it a priority. But - nobody wants to take that on. I have some theories on that, but they're a bit off the track of this thread...... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 16th November 2006 at 14:45.
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17th November 2006, 00:00	#18 (permalink)
S. Marc RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 204	Re: home builder or limited production assembler Okay, my 2 cents worth. My personal belief is that the only time a boat / charter operator should face liability is if they are grossly negligent (this term may have different meanings in different jurisdictions). For example, you get run over by the boat, left at the dive site and drown, get food poisoning from the lunch they serve, your bailout or diluent tank contains high levels of carbon monoxide and you die (yeah, the boats' compressor filled your tank), etc... I am not sure what the law is in the US, but in Canada there is a legal principle called voluntary assumption of risk (volenti non fit injuria - yeah, my latin sucks). At its most fundamental level, it means that if you voluntarily assume a risk, and you know what that risk is, you ought not be compensated for any damages you incur, you know, death, paralysis, loss of income, that sort of thing. I think (I could be very wrong) that the main problem stems not from the actual or perceived liability on the part of the dive boat operator, but rather from what the insurance carriers these dive operators have might want or impose. They may be breaching their policy if they let homebuilders dive rigs from their boat, who knows? I have never read a diver charter commercial liability policy. I think (and again I could be very wrong), that a secondary, issue may be that the dive operators may have large deductibles and or increased premiums if there is a claim, regardless of the claim's outcome. The third issue may be their concern for getting a bad reputation if someone bites it while diving from their boat. I do agree however, that with all the aftermarket goodies around, both for scuba and rebreathers, there are very few stock factory rigs out there. Using different sensors, adding aftermarket sensors, aftermarket PPO2 montors and guages, backplates, stands, tanks, you name it, they all will have some effect on the unit. That being said I think it sucks that I wouldn't be allowed to dive my modified/limited production manufacturer Biopack 240 through a dive charter Marc
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18th November 2006, 03:52	#20 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: home builder or limited production assembler New Jersey? Cool - next time I'm up that way..... bet on it __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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