Thinking about building my own...

Genesis · 17th August 2006, 02:19

Ok, you're going to get a contrary (partially) opinion here.

First. The basic mechanics of a rebreather are simple. Place trash bag over head and cinch it up. You now have a rebreather. Unfortunately, you will shortly deplete the oxygen and excrete more CO2 than you can stand, and one of the two (or both) will, within a couple of minutes, kill you.

Ok, that was a bad idea. So we know we have two basic problems - the PO2 has to be kept within safe limits (somehow) and the CO2 has to be removed (somehow).

The latter is simpler, since there is really only one way to do it (right now anyway) - chemical absorbant. That comes in granules and solid (really the same chemical but pre-formed into sheets and then wound around a core spiral-style - aka "ExtendAir")

Both are pretty easy to build servicable cannisters for, and the basic design rules aren't complicated.

Ok, so now we have to deal with the O2 side. And here you have divergences. You can do CMF (constant mass flow) of some gas into the loop, either a Nitrox mix (aka Dolphin) or pure O2 (aka KISS), you can do MANUAL addition of O2 into the loop (e.g. "you fly it" manual CCR) or you can build some form of electronics to do that job for you.

Oh, and there's this little problem of loop volume you need to solve, since when you go down in the water gas compresses and when you go up it expands. This also changes the PO2, so all this is interdependant.

And - it has to be watertight, since the absorbant chemicals really don't like water - when they get mixed with water they form a caustic solution that will burn up (literally) your lungs if inhaled. Bad karma dude.

Then there's the diving it part. The primary difference between a CCR and open circuit is that if you can breathe on open circuit what you're breathing, so long as you're within the MOD of the gas (and its not hypoxic), will keep you alive. This is not true on a CCR - you can happily breathe a gas with no O2 in it at all, too much O2, or too much CO2, all of which will kill you with varying speeds but the same certainty. And - all of the above makes it a bit more complex than an OC rig to maintain and insure it works properly. There are also fun little things like the risk of fires (enriched O2 atmospheres really make things that spark or burn go like Hades) and material compatability (some things emit toxic gases - not a big deal until you put that thing in a closed space and breathe from it!)

Anyway, with all that said, I'm building an eCCR (electronically controlled.) But - I have an engineering background. I've been building electronics since I was literally a kid - here's the latest turn of the amplifier board (goes in the scrubber can head) which was sent out yesterday for manufacturing - that's the actual size of a printed copy of the board's layout with a quarter next to it for scale. This sort of work is what's involved in doing an electronic unit!

Oh, that's the third revision too - yes, I paid for two previous ones and they both needed improvements. This turn (hopefully the last one before this beast gets wet, assuming I made no mistakes in layout AND the performance is acceptable) is about 2/3rds the size of the previous one - no small feat considering that it has the same components on it the previous one did! The Rev1 to Rev2 cuts weren't hard - Rev2 to Rev3 required quite a bit of time with an oscilloscope to nail down exactly what I wasn't happy with and take care of it.

Now will all this, when I'm done, save me money? Maybe. I highly doubt I'll have as much in it (not counting my time, of course) as a commercial unit costs. This says a lot, to be frank - given zero economy of scale I'm rather intrigued that I expect my total "nut" to be somewhat less - including the tools and equipment I had to buy - than a commercial unit (and I still have the tools and equipment, of course.)

BUT - how much is your time worth? Once I get the electronics done and the integration complete (which is coming along nicely; I started this project around Christmas time) I then have to figure out how not to kill myself using it. I intend to start in my living room, and then on my stationary bike, and then, assuming someone hasn't snatched the mouthpiece out of my lips as I pass out testing this thing on dry land, in the pool out my back door. If I survive THAT far, having likely put a few dozen hours on the box, and its still working acceptably, I might consider a shallow (20-30') dive in real water with it, and then go from there.

As a diver, I'm comfortable with mandatory decompression, own my own fill and mixing station, along with my own boat. Therefore, I need show no "C" card to dive as I wish, when I wish, where I wish - I need only to get in the boat and turn the key, go there, drop anchor and put up a dive flag. This gives me freedom to play without the "plastic card police" guys having a hiss-fit.

Now before you say "you're nuts - just go buy X and be done with it!" let me remind 'ya of a few things that drove MY personal decision:

1. There is no such thing as a generic CCR class according to the agencies. This means that if you train on Unit "X" and then want buy Unit "Y", you need to take a SECOND class. IMHO this is wrong-headed, but its where the industry is. They like it this way and argue that it has to be this way. I argue otherwise, but since they won't budge and I won't buy on their terms it leaves me few choices IF I want to dive a CCR in the first place.

2. Twinsets work fine. They are, however, heavy as hell and frankly I ain't getting younger. Can I deal with double 72s or 100s on a boat? Sure. Would it be nice to have something lighter - say, perhaps the same total mass as a big single (e.g. HP120) but with vastly better duration and zero hassles during a dive day once set up? Oh yeah. I think I can get there with a CCR. Also, for Trimix, the cost factors, even filling my own tanks, are very real - blowing $50 for a dive on Trimix isn't my idea of a good time. The gas in the boat is bad enough - now add $100 for two dives in a (long) day and suddenly we're talking real money. If you dive 100 times a year this way that's $10k worth of helium - and that ain't chump change. CCRs are VASTLY more efficient on the Helium use, which means the $10k gas bill becomes a $1k - or perhaps less - one.

3. What makes (1) particularly ugly is that there's no way to KNOW what unit you want - really - until you dive them. You can talk to people BUT ergonomics are funny and what's good for one person might bite for a second. I see no way around this problem, and being "wrong" not only means a unit that I buy but then don't want (this one isn't TOO bad as you can get most of the money back out on resale) but a completely thrown-away training class - both time AND money. That's unacceptable to me. In the converse, if I build it I can change it until I'm happy with it and print my own "C" card (legitimately, under the rules for CCRs, since I have by definition passed "training authorized by the manufacturer" - my proof is that I'm still alive!)

4. I am distinctly nervous about support for the current units on the market. APD, arguably the only "Big company" doing this, doesn't have a US depot. You think I'm sending a head over to England to be worked on annually (their recommendation)? I don't think so. They have no US service depot. There goes that option. The other manufacturers may all have a fine reputation but none are big companies and ALL are using some manner of parts that, if they die tomorrow, could become unobtanium. Again, if I build it I can probably fashion a suitable replacement piece for whatever "X" item breaks.

5. I like engineering things. It pushes my buttons. This is a big deal because it means the time investment has an "opportunity cost" to me of zero. This isn't true for most people.

6. Honestly - I see commercial potential in this. That's not a "tomorrow" thing, but if I brought about a paradigm shift in "the bizness" that would really push my buttons. While I recognize that this is a "1 in 100" shot, it remains a huge motivational force for me.

I can't recommend building a unit to anyone, but I also won't try to talk people out of it. On the other hand, do recognize that this is literally "you bet your life" in terms of what sort of game you're playing.

rdmmdr · 17th August 2006, 06:05

just to get a little father off thread

there are kit rebreathers out there the frog for example and the kiss units.that come in serveral forms scr ccr eccr mccr in the same base unit. but the cert agencies say that once certed on a unit you are cleared no mater what you do to the unit.

but god forbid you want to talk about a biopak, a commercial made and tested rebreather.

did i build my own ? yes
i am waiting for tracys bov to finish it

what is my testing proceedure
full med team for bike tests, o2 sats, co2 monitoring

them monteray for mk16 training before i get wet with it and have my instructor review the unit, due to legal reason i can not train with it. and i have 150 hours on a homebuilt

if we as a group can agree on a fixed conversion kit for the biopak240,s we then have a production unit that can be certified. kind of like the homebuilt air plane market here. outside of the electronics the unit is simple to modify, i could do one in a day.

we have the manufacturing capacity in the group to provide the parts. it seams like an easy fix to come up with a standard unit

total cost so far

biopak 240 500$
new wing 350$
regs had
tanks had
bov with hoses 800$
stainlees steel pie tin 15$
batteries with cases and connectors 300$
ampifier boards 100$
handsets 250$
hoses fittings and hardware 250$
hud 0$ had all the parts
total cost eccr 2515$

duration 5 hrs
training 1500$ out the door 4000$

so lets see what i got for 4000$ i have a rebreather that the manufacture will not support with parts if i tell them what i am doing, i have a rebreather that most people would bitch about me using even with a mk 16 cert.

could our training be modified
yes but it could not be standard
they guy that can build a safe unit probably does not need training in the setup and repair of that unit but he still needs to learn all of the water skills required.

training changes recomendations
1.
basic core
scr
mccr
eccr
fundimentals

2.
pass a unit specific test for setup and maint.

3.
water skills

if you change rebreathers you have a one hour test on tear down and maintenance. then you get to do water skills test for evaluation, and the instructor decides what areas you need to work on and the training is specific to those areas.

my thoughts
rick

lolwhat · 17th August 2006, 11:58

Genesis,

You may not believe it, but on many of your points, you're preaching to the choir.

I've been lurking here for longer than my "join date" suggests, and I've been reading a few things on the subject of rebreathers, so I have some grasp of the fundamentals. I understand that hypercapnia, hypoxia, ox tox, caustic cocktails, etc etc etc are very real risks, and I will take steps to minimize them no matter what I do.

lizardland · 17th August 2006, 12:23

Quote:

how much is your time worth?

That's what really swung it for me. A year of Saturdays spent banging and chopping and swearing in my garage followed by Sundays spent swimming around in the shallows in a quarry seeing if what I did worked and then swearing some more.

I bought my KISS, it's second dive was a 2hr dive to a max of 60m in a cave. I never approached anything like that with my last homebuild in a year of working on it. The only swearing I did was at myself for not doing it three years earlier. Oh yeah, and when my crappy Halcyon light failed

Now I'm thinking of putting my leftover bits into a sidemount bailout Rebreather. I guess I'll never learn...

Scuba_Vixen · 17th August 2006, 13:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

~snip~

Now I'm thinking of putting my leftover bits into a sidemount bailout Rebreather. I guess I'll never learn...

Once you pick up that first tool with thoughts of creativity spinning in your head, You're doomed for life. I think it's due to a recessive gene that some how gets activated the first time you tinker successfully with something.

Darlene

Genesis · 17th August 2006, 14:02

Naw, it is triggered whether you're successful or not.

Ask my parents about the few clocks and watches (along with other things) that I disassembled as a young child.... while they went back together, they didn't seem to work so well after that

Later on I taught myself how to use an oscilloscope in "self-defense." I had a job at the time programming embedded controllers for earth-station (satellite comms) gear - amplifier and antenna controllers, mostly. All custom hardware (not my design) and software (my responsibility.) The only way to prove that the hardware was where the random fault of the day lay was to be able to hook up that sucker and point to the EE that had designed the board that was misbehaving and say "See? I TOLD YOU that when I put Pin 6 on that chip high and your spec said that Pin 14 was supposed to go low 200ns later that it didn't!"

lizardland · 17th August 2006, 15:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Ask my parents about the few clocks and watches (along with other things) that I disassembled as a young child.... while they went back together, they didn't seem to work so well after that

It's if as a child you start taking apart dogs and cats to see how they work then that really is a bad sign for the future... especially if combined with incontinence and childhood pyromania...

Genesis · 17th August 2006, 15:53

I didn't do the dogs and cats.... but was more than a bit of a pyro.....

17th August 2006, 02:19	#31 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Thinking about building my own... Ok, you're going to get a contrary (partially) opinion here. First. The basic mechanics of a rebreather are simple. Place trash bag over head and cinch it up. You now have a rebreather. Unfortunately, you will shortly deplete the oxygen and excrete more CO2 than you can stand, and one of the two (or both) will, within a couple of minutes, kill you. Ok, that was a bad idea. So we know we have two basic problems - the PO2 has to be kept within safe limits (somehow) and the CO2 has to be removed (somehow). The latter is simpler, since there is really only one way to do it (right now anyway) - chemical absorbant. That comes in granules and solid (really the same chemical but pre-formed into sheets and then wound around a core spiral-style - aka "ExtendAir") Both are pretty easy to build servicable cannisters for, and the basic design rules aren't complicated. Ok, so now we have to deal with the O2 side. And here you have divergences. You can do CMF (constant mass flow) of some gas into the loop, either a Nitrox mix (aka Dolphin) or pure O2 (aka KISS), you can do MANUAL addition of O2 into the loop (e.g. "you fly it" manual CCR) or you can build some form of electronics to do that job for you. Oh, and there's this little problem of loop volume you need to solve, since when you go down in the water gas compresses and when you go up it expands. This also changes the PO2, so all this is interdependant. And - it has to be watertight, since the absorbant chemicals really don't like water - when they get mixed with water they form a caustic solution that will burn up (literally) your lungs if inhaled. Bad karma dude. Then there's the diving it part. The primary difference between a CCR and open circuit is that if you can breathe on open circuit what you're breathing, so long as you're within the MOD of the gas (and its not hypoxic), will keep you alive. This is not true on a CCR - you can happily breathe a gas with no O2 in it at all, too much O2, or too much CO2, all of which will kill you with varying speeds but the same certainty. And - all of the above makes it a bit more complex than an OC rig to maintain and insure it works properly. There are also fun little things like the risk of fires (enriched O2 atmospheres really make things that spark or burn go like Hades) and material compatability (some things emit toxic gases - not a big deal until you put that thing in a closed space and breathe from it!) Anyway, with all that said, I'm building an eCCR (electronically controlled.) But - I have an engineering background. I've been building electronics since I was literally a kid - here's the latest turn of the amplifier board (goes in the scrubber can head) which was sent out yesterday for manufacturing - that's the actual size of a printed copy of the board's layout with a quarter next to it for scale. This sort of work is what's involved in doing an electronic unit! Oh, that's the third revision too - yes, I paid for two previous ones and they both needed improvements. This turn (hopefully the last one before this beast gets wet, assuming I made no mistakes in layout AND the performance is acceptable) is about 2/3rds the size of the previous one - no small feat considering that it has the same components on it the previous one did! The Rev1 to Rev2 cuts weren't hard - Rev2 to Rev3 required quite a bit of time with an oscilloscope to nail down exactly what I wasn't happy with and take care of it. Now will all this, when I'm done, save me money? Maybe. I highly doubt I'll have as much in it (not counting my time, of course) as a commercial unit costs. This says a lot, to be frank - given zero economy of scale I'm rather intrigued that I expect my total "nut" to be somewhat less - including the tools and equipment I had to buy - than a commercial unit (and I still have the tools and equipment, of course.) BUT - how much is your time worth? Once I get the electronics done and the integration complete (which is coming along nicely; I started this project around Christmas time) I then have to figure out how not to kill myself using it. I intend to start in my living room, and then on my stationary bike, and then, assuming someone hasn't snatched the mouthpiece out of my lips as I pass out testing this thing on dry land, in the pool out my back door. If I survive THAT far, having likely put a few dozen hours on the box, and its still working acceptably, I might consider a shallow (20-30') dive in real water with it, and then go from there. As a diver, I'm comfortable with mandatory decompression, own my own fill and mixing station, along with my own boat. Therefore, I need show no "C" card to dive as I wish, when I wish, where I wish - I need only to get in the boat and turn the key, go there, drop anchor and put up a dive flag. This gives me freedom to play without the "plastic card police" guys having a hiss-fit. Now before you say "you're nuts - just go buy X and be done with it!" let me remind 'ya of a few things that drove MY personal decision: 1. There is no such thing as a generic CCR class according to the agencies. This means that if you train on Unit "X" and then want buy Unit "Y", you need to take a SECOND class. IMHO this is wrong-headed, but its where the industry is. They like it this way and argue that it has to be this way. I argue otherwise, but since they won't budge and I won't buy on their terms it leaves me few choices IF I want to dive a CCR in the first place. 2. Twinsets work fine. They are, however, heavy as hell and frankly I ain't getting younger. Can I deal with double 72s or 100s on a boat? Sure. Would it be nice to have something lighter - say, perhaps the same total mass as a big single (e.g. HP120) but with vastly better duration and zero hassles during a dive day once set up? Oh yeah. I think I can get there with a CCR. Also, for Trimix, the cost factors, even filling my own tanks, are very real - blowing $50 for a dive on Trimix isn't my idea of a good time. The gas in the boat is bad enough - now add $100 for two dives in a (long) day and suddenly we're talking real money. If you dive 100 times a year this way that's $10k worth of helium - and that ain't chump change. CCRs are VASTLY more efficient on the Helium use, which means the $10k gas bill becomes a $1k - or perhaps less - one. 3. What makes (1) particularly ugly is that there's no way to KNOW what unit you want - really - until you dive them. You can talk to people BUT ergonomics are funny and what's good for one person might bite for a second. I see no way around this problem, and being "wrong" not only means a unit that I buy but then don't want (this one isn't TOO bad as you can get most of the money back out on resale) but a completely thrown-away training class - both time AND money. That's unacceptable to me. In the converse, if I build it I can change it until I'm happy with it and print my own "C" card (legitimately, under the rules for CCRs, since I have by definition passed "training authorized by the manufacturer" - my proof is that I'm still alive!) 4. I am distinctly nervous about support for the current units on the market. APD, arguably the only "Big company" doing this, doesn't have a US depot. You think I'm sending a head over to England to be worked on annually (their recommendation)? I don't think so. They have no US service depot. There goes that option. The other manufacturers may all have a fine reputation but none are big companies and ALL are using some manner of parts that, if they die tomorrow, could become unobtanium. Again, if I build it I can probably fashion a suitable replacement piece for whatever "X" item breaks. 5. I like engineering things. It pushes my buttons. This is a big deal because it means the time investment has an "opportunity cost" to me of zero. This isn't true for most people. 6. Honestly - I see commercial potential in this. That's not a "tomorrow" thing, but if I brought about a paradigm shift in "the bizness" that would really push my buttons. While I recognize that this is a "1 in 100" shot, it remains a huge motivational force for me. I can't recommend building a unit to anyone, but I also won't try to talk people out of it. On the other hand, do recognize that this is literally "you bet your life" in terms of what sort of game you're playing. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 17th August 2006 at 04:25.
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17th August 2006, 06:05	#32 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: Thinking about building my own... just to get a little father off thread there are kit rebreathers out there the frog for example and the kiss units.that come in serveral forms scr ccr eccr mccr in the same base unit. but the cert agencies say that once certed on a unit you are cleared no mater what you do to the unit. but god forbid you want to talk about a biopak, a commercial made and tested rebreather. did i build my own ? yes i am waiting for tracys bov to finish it what is my testing proceedure full med team for bike tests, o2 sats, co2 monitoring them monteray for mk16 training before i get wet with it and have my instructor review the unit, due to legal reason i can not train with it. and i have 150 hours on a homebuilt if we as a group can agree on a fixed conversion kit for the biopak240,s we then have a production unit that can be certified. kind of like the homebuilt air plane market here. outside of the electronics the unit is simple to modify, i could do one in a day. we have the manufacturing capacity in the group to provide the parts. it seams like an easy fix to come up with a standard unit total cost so far biopak 240 500$ new wing 350$ regs had tanks had bov with hoses 800$ stainlees steel pie tin 15$ batteries with cases and connectors 300$ ampifier boards 100$ handsets 250$ hoses fittings and hardware 250$ hud 0$ had all the parts total cost eccr 2515$ duration 5 hrs training 1500$ out the door 4000$ so lets see what i got for 4000$ i have a rebreather that the manufacture will not support with parts if i tell them what i am doing, i have a rebreather that most people would bitch about me using even with a mk 16 cert. could our training be modified yes but it could not be standard they guy that can build a safe unit probably does not need training in the setup and repair of that unit but he still needs to learn all of the water skills required. training changes recomendations 1. basic core scr mccr eccr fundimentals 2. pass a unit specific test for setup and maint. 3. water skills if you change rebreathers you have a one hour test on tear down and maintenance. then you get to do water skills test for evaluation, and the instructor decides what areas you need to work on and the training is specific to those areas. my thoughts rick Last edited by rdmmdr : 17th August 2006 at 06:09.
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17th August 2006, 11:58	#33 (permalink)
lolwhat New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 28	Re: Thinking about building my own... Genesis, You may not believe it, but on many of your points, you're preaching to the choir. I've been lurking here for longer than my "join date" suggests, and I've been reading a few things on the subject of rebreathers, so I have some grasp of the fundamentals. I understand that hypercapnia, hypoxia, ox tox, caustic cocktails, etc etc etc are very real risks, and I will take steps to minimize them no matter what I do.
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17th August 2006, 12:23	#34 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,387	Re: Thinking about building my own... Quote: how much is your time worth? That's what really swung it for me. A year of Saturdays spent banging and chopping and swearing in my garage followed by Sundays spent swimming around in the shallows in a quarry seeing if what I did worked and then swearing some more. I bought my KISS, it's second dive was a 2hr dive to a max of 60m in a cave. I never approached anything like that with my last homebuild in a year of working on it. The only swearing I did was at myself for not doing it three years earlier. Oh yeah, and when my crappy Halcyon light failed Now I'm thinking of putting my leftover bits into a sidemount bailout Rebreather. I guess I'll never learn... __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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17th August 2006, 13:59	#35 (permalink)
Scuba_Vixen e/mCCR Dolphin Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: St. Croix USVI Posts: 557	Re: Thinking about building my own... Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) ~snip~ Now I'm thinking of putting my leftover bits into a sidemount bailout Rebreather. I guess I'll never learn... Once you pick up that first tool with thoughts of creativity spinning in your head, You're doomed for life. I think it's due to a recessive gene that some how gets activated the first time you tinker successfully with something. Darlene
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17th August 2006, 14:02	#36 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Thinking about building my own... Naw, it is triggered whether you're successful or not. Ask my parents about the few clocks and watches (along with other things) that I disassembled as a young child.... while they went back together, they didn't seem to work so well after that Later on I taught myself how to use an oscilloscope in "self-defense." I had a job at the time programming embedded controllers for earth-station (satellite comms) gear - amplifier and antenna controllers, mostly. All custom hardware (not my design) and software (my responsibility.) The only way to prove that the hardware was where the random fault of the day lay was to be able to hook up that sucker and point to the EE that had designed the board that was misbehaving and say "See? I TOLD YOU that when I put Pin 6 on that chip high and your spec said that Pin 14 was supposed to go low 200ns later that it didn't!" __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket Last edited by Genesis : 17th August 2006 at 14:07.
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17th August 2006, 15:52	#37 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,387	Re: Thinking about building my own... Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Ask my parents about the few clocks and watches (along with other things) that I disassembled as a young child.... while they went back together, they didn't seem to work so well after that It's if as a child you start taking apart dogs and cats to see how they work then that really is a bad sign for the future... especially if combined with incontinence and childhood pyromania... __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

17th August 2006, 15:53	#38 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Thinking about building my own... I didn't do the dogs and cats.... but was more than a bit of a pyro..... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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