Hey Dave!

whoizrob · 25th June 2006, 22:21

You mean Ala Will smithers? *That* was pretty darn cool with the FFM to boot! =9

Shall I start buying stock in Beano?!

I must say Dave, that is one of the reasons I love your designs is the simplicity of them. I mean that's really part of the allure in Rebreather diving isn't it? Why clutter it all with crazy electronics and doodads when all you really need is a CMF orfice and a button (if that, even)?

BTW how is the Basic Stamp stuff going (that was you wasn't it?)? I bought mine 2 months ago and have been thoroughly enjoying the learning process =9

Rob

**Dave Sutton** · 26th June 2006, 03:40

I don't think Smithers ever did anything with a drysuit, he actually never did much with any hardware other than the old TP rebreather (toilet paper was the operative mechanism for those who have not been following these things since, say.... 1998 or so). To be honest, he had 10 thumbs for anything other than software, as was evidenced by the HUGE garbage barrel of malfunctioning regulators he was proud to show me in his apartment. "None of 'em work: when they begin to freeflow I just toss 'em in there and buy new ones....". Unlimited money will do that. It'll also buy you a helicopter you cannot fly..... as he found out. Still miss him.

I've never done anything with the Basic Stamp, not my bag to try to deal with electronics. Not even Kevin can seem to get it right and he's been doing electronics for years (and if he *could* get it right maybe my Mark-15's would have come back to me after he's had them for THREE friggin' years for upgrade...You hear me, Dude?) A guy once said "TV's never break, so why are you worried about rebreather electroncs? When was the last time your TV broke?" The answer was "The last time I tossed it into the ocean...". Bottom line is that *some* electronics are a neccesary evil, but less = more. I'd prefer to rely on the .39 cent biological computer than the electronic version. Call me a Luddite (and a Mark-15 diver circa 1979) but I'll stick to my completely independant PP02 monitors (one floods... so what?) and the KISS system with a second manual 02 feed for when things get too deep for the KISS valve.

Trying to think about what else is news: Have a TON of extra junk here clogging the boxes under my bench, anyone need a dozen or so Draeger DIN valves that fit the tapered threads of all of the Russian 02 bottles ever made? How about a case or two of Russian IDA-71 scrubbers and 02 bottles? Need to clear out this crap.... maybe I'll make it so anyone who comes for a personal visit cannot leave unless they carry out at least 20 pounds of assorted rebreather surplus. Who needs a Draeger FGT-1D with 6 bottles?

Dave

MHD · 26th June 2006, 05:50

Hi Dave, I'm another that benefited from your ideas and exploits, and am very glad to see your experience back on the boards.

Have to say after converting my azimuth to CCR, I have been keen to emulate (nice word for copy) your C-96 minimum rebreather layout. It always struck me as a very elegent design, and something that would be a dream to dive. Have always kept my eye open for a C-96 Pro at the price and when one appears it will become my next project.

Matthew

**Dave Sutton** · 26th June 2006, 15:15

Thanks. How did you CCR the Azimuth? It's probably the best platform imaginable for CCR conversion, I make up a quick-convert kit that I can carry with me that allows one to be converted in 5 minutes by just removing the old regulators and dose stuff and clicking on the new stuff. The scrubber is great and the bottles are just the right size (and the right number).

The C-96 system morphed a few times. One "possibility" that I dove for a while used two 2.5 litre bottles on my back (worlds smallest doubles) to feed the rig, worked well (no bailout volume though). Second "possibility" is what I'm using now, an old SCUBA backpack to carry a diluent bottle on my back and use the original 02 bottle across the bottom of the rig for 02. You need the weight there anyhow to ballast the bag unless you want to rely on a crotch-strap to hold it down (as I did on the "worlds smallest doubles" rig). If you remember the issue John had with the one I made for him to use on the S-5 in Deep Sea Detectives, that was the issue, if he had left the original 02 bottle on the bag and fed diluent to the system using a small back bottle he would not have had the buoyancy issue with the system (he never rigged a tight crotch strap which is *absolutely required* if you don't use the original 02 bottle in it's original place). In any case, back to using a normal backpack to carry diluent, I look like any other diver jumping in with a tank on my back.... except for the bag on my chest. If I use an AL80 I *really* look like any other diver. Have loads of bailout and more importantly (here) plenty of gas for filling lift bags (think shipwreck artifacts). I use an AL50 for much of the work with it. Works great. Photo later, just need to stick a bottle in the backpack out in the garage and shoot one.

Now...

Darned C-96's are getting expensive. LAR-V's can now be had for about the same price. Frankly, given the choice, I'd use a LAR instead of a C-96 if I were going to build up another. In fact, I have..... my LAR has always had a P-Connector in the bag, and since my diluent feed and 3 cell PP02 meter system plugs into a P-Connector I just grab the LAR-V (all set as an 02 rig) , remove the P-Connector plug, plug in the dil feed-cum-PP02 probe, and set it aside. Drysuit on, AL50 or AL80 on my back, only difference is that the normal OC regulator set on that bottle also has a feed line and manual add valve that leads to the LAR-V, and then put on the LAR. Plug the dil feed line ifrom the AL50/AL80 into the dil-feed plug on the LAR and jump in. NO MODIFICATION to the LAR-V (or C-96, or P-96, or any other chest mounted 02 rig) is needed other than to add a P-Port. Works great.

This leads to this:

On the LAR-V setup I have no KISS valve in the system. I rely on manual 02 feed. This is a LOT simpler than it seems. Once making the bottom (assuming a fairly flat underwater topography) I set the counterlung volume so that when 02 is consumed, the auto-add valve triggers and adds more... and if depth is static, flying "constant counterlung volume" which is also "constant neutral buoyancy mode" by this method keeps PP02 static anyhow. Bottom line is that every few minutes I begin sinking towards the bottom as my buoyancy decreases due to 02 being lost as volume in the loop. A quick push of the 02 button to re-establish neutral bouyancy and guess what? When I look at my PP02 meter the PP02 has been maintained... it's absolutely intuitive. Just use the 02 add instead of your wings inflate button to maintain neutral buoyancy and you're all set. Think of this as a permutation of "constant volume/constant buoyancy, non-PP02 monitored, blind flying, 02 only CCR decompression bailout mode" and you'll be on the right track. Remedial discussions of that mode will me given upon request. It's the "02 only" emergency CCR bailout mode that compliments the "Diluent only VPM" emergency blind-flying emergency CCR mode. If ya'll cannot bail out from your CCR *without any PP02 monitoring* and stay alive for an hour using only EITHER diluent OR 02 (but not both) it's time to go back to school. Shall we start?

************************************************** ****

"Diver Dave’s Foolproof Instructions on how to stay alive when you lose PP02 monitoring and need to decompress blind in the water for an hour and have access to manual 02 addition":

IF

(1): PP02 is known (think diluent flush and then know PP02 by depth V/S diluent... you *can* do simple math, eh?)

AND

(2): no gas is allowed to escape (IE no mask leaks)

AND

(3): Buoyancy is made absolutely neutral by careful diluent addition

THEN

(4) any decrease in buoyancy is caused by 02 being metabolized in the loop

AND THUS

(5) Maintaining constant buoyancy by *02 injections into the counterlung* will result in a static PP02 condition.....

Get it? (See Wikipedia entry for "Boolean Logic" and/or "Truth Table" and/or "Prepositional Logic" if ya'll have a hard time keeping up...... and note that this very statement is a Boolean Logic String....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_logic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic

"It's not Rocket Science..well..... actually.... it *is* Rocket Science....."

(a favorite expression down at Test Pilot School)

*************************************************

The only downside of this is that the only KNOWN PP02 you can maintain is the one that is set by your diluent at that depth. This is one reason I tend to run rich diluents.... it's all about having a rich enough mix to do a decent decompression relying on using the PP02 of the diluent at my planned dec stops depths. In order to do this my mixes are rich enough so that the loop PP02 when I bottom out would scare some.. I bottom out "hot" and then burn down the loop 02 after bottoming out at the beginning of the dive. I commonly bottom out at 2.0 or higher PP02, up to 2.5 at times, no worries. That's fodder for another discussion on "how the training industry got it all wrong" but let's leave it at that for now. Bottom line there is that we dive pure 02 rebreathers to 60 feet for short durations.... in accordance with the US Navy 02 tolerance tables.... figure out *that* PP02 and come and talk to me.

Hmm...... more misc ramlings:

Anyone other than me find that the French 02 rigs that were common on Ebay for a while (having been liberated in quantity from Iraq's depots) make a good chest mounted 02 rig as a starting place for this sort of system? These are Interspiro 02 rigs that Saddam bought from France in bulk, many were "released" and are now floating around. Many came here without the 02 bottles, no bother as it allows you to use any old small bottle and a KISS valve to feed the rig while using back mounted dil. Get one!

Dave

***EBT*** · 26th June 2006, 15:41

Welcome to the fold dave, Im sure I still owe you a hat eating after shooting my mouth off on a list ages ago. Good job they expire when they're not collected within 28 days

Shame you cant update your website though, I was an avid reader when I first started out in rebreathers.

Anyway, RBW tends to be fairly tolerant, which is always good for picking up ideas from different places (who says you have to agree with everything people say).

/Zak

**Dave Sutton** · 26th June 2006, 15:51

_ . _ _ _ . _ _ . . _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . .. _ . _ _ _. . _ .. _. !

Dave (N2VBQ, formerly operating KC4AAC, go look that one up....)

whoizrob · 26th June 2006, 20:49

Cool beans... or no beans... or... n/m (BTW it was Will Sewell NOT Smithers, I am *so* bad with names)

Sorry bout the Basic Stamp thing, thought that was you for some reason. I was planning on using the processor more for PPO2 monitoring and displaying all three values on one screen, not for deco or solenoid control. All deco will done using the old school pen and paper method and O2 injection is by CMF orfice and the handy dandy dry suit injection button on the CL method =)

Can't wait to see what comes out of your shop! Eagerly awaiting pics!

Rob

PS attached are pics of Wills get up. Not sure what the heck is going on in the pics but it looks darn cool. I can only imagine what yours will look like! Any ETA?

shell-back · 26th June 2006, 21:17

I love that Dry suit /Rebreather it makes me giddy every time I see it ! Its so freekin cool.

undrh2o · 26th June 2006, 21:50

Wow does that dry suit include some sort of charcoal filter for your ..err.. personal gaseous emmisions? Something about a little dry suit squeeze always makes me need to ...well "off-gas". I pretty sure I don't want breathe it.

MHD · 27th June 2006, 07:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Thanks. How did you CCR the Azimuth? Dave

similar to Philippe Gerin conversion regarding gas path , but using a sensor probe copied from you for PO2 monitoring. If interested a bit of an over view can be found here.

http://www.matthewmaclean.com/breather/Breatherpage.htm.

end result I'm pretty happy with but does need some fine tuning. due for a rehose and clean up of the internal hose routings and a few minor things

Matt

25th June 2006, 22:21	#21 (permalink)
whoizrob New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sacramento Posts: 72	Drysuit as CL? You mean Ala Will smithers? That was pretty darn cool with the FFM to boot! =9 Shall I start buying stock in Beano?! I must say Dave, that is one of the reasons I love your designs is the simplicity of them. I mean that's really part of the allure in Rebreather diving isn't it? Why clutter it all with crazy electronics and doodads when all you really need is a CMF orfice and a button (if that, even)? BTW how is the Basic Stamp stuff going (that was you wasn't it?)? I bought mine 2 months ago and have been thoroughly enjoying the learning process =9 Rob
(Offline)

26th June 2006, 03:40	#22 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Drysuit as CL? I don't think Smithers ever did anything with a drysuit, he actually never did much with any hardware other than the old TP rebreather (toilet paper was the operative mechanism for those who have not been following these things since, say.... 1998 or so). To be honest, he had 10 thumbs for anything other than software, as was evidenced by the HUGE garbage barrel of malfunctioning regulators he was proud to show me in his apartment. "None of 'em work: when they begin to freeflow I just toss 'em in there and buy new ones....". Unlimited money will do that. It'll also buy you a helicopter you cannot fly..... as he found out. Still miss him. I've never done anything with the Basic Stamp, not my bag to try to deal with electronics. Not even Kevin can seem to get it right and he's been doing electronics for years (and if he could get it right maybe my Mark-15's would have come back to me after he's had them for THREE friggin' years for upgrade...You hear me, Dude?) A guy once said "TV's never break, so why are you worried about rebreather electroncs? When was the last time your TV broke?" The answer was "The last time I tossed it into the ocean...". Bottom line is that some electronics are a neccesary evil, but less = more. I'd prefer to rely on the .39 cent biological computer than the electronic version. Call me a Luddite (and a Mark-15 diver circa 1979) but I'll stick to my completely independant PP02 monitors (one floods... so what?) and the KISS system with a second manual 02 feed for when things get too deep for the KISS valve. Trying to think about what else is news: Have a TON of extra junk here clogging the boxes under my bench, anyone need a dozen or so Draeger DIN valves that fit the tapered threads of all of the Russian 02 bottles ever made? How about a case or two of Russian IDA-71 scrubbers and 02 bottles? Need to clear out this crap.... maybe I'll make it so anyone who comes for a personal visit cannot leave unless they carry out at least 20 pounds of assorted rebreather surplus. Who needs a Draeger FGT-1D with 6 bottles? Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

26th June 2006, 05:50	#23 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Hey Dave! Hi Dave, I'm another that benefited from your ideas and exploits, and am very glad to see your experience back on the boards. Have to say after converting my azimuth to CCR, I have been keen to emulate (nice word for copy) your C-96 minimum rebreather layout. It always struck me as a very elegent design, and something that would be a dream to dive. Have always kept my eye open for a C-96 Pro at the price and when one appears it will become my next project. Matthew
(Offline)

26th June 2006, 15:15	#24 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Hey Dave! Thanks. How did you CCR the Azimuth? It's probably the best platform imaginable for CCR conversion, I make up a quick-convert kit that I can carry with me that allows one to be converted in 5 minutes by just removing the old regulators and dose stuff and clicking on the new stuff. The scrubber is great and the bottles are just the right size (and the right number). The C-96 system morphed a few times. One "possibility" that I dove for a while used two 2.5 litre bottles on my back (worlds smallest doubles) to feed the rig, worked well (no bailout volume though). Second "possibility" is what I'm using now, an old SCUBA backpack to carry a diluent bottle on my back and use the original 02 bottle across the bottom of the rig for 02. You need the weight there anyhow to ballast the bag unless you want to rely on a crotch-strap to hold it down (as I did on the "worlds smallest doubles" rig). If you remember the issue John had with the one I made for him to use on the S-5 in Deep Sea Detectives, that was the issue, if he had left the original 02 bottle on the bag and fed diluent to the system using a small back bottle he would not have had the buoyancy issue with the system (he never rigged a tight crotch strap which is absolutely required if you don't use the original 02 bottle in it's original place). In any case, back to using a normal backpack to carry diluent, I look like any other diver jumping in with a tank on my back.... except for the bag on my chest. If I use an AL80 I really look like any other diver. Have loads of bailout and more importantly (here) plenty of gas for filling lift bags (think shipwreck artifacts). I use an AL50 for much of the work with it. Works great. Photo later, just need to stick a bottle in the backpack out in the garage and shoot one. Now... Darned C-96's are getting expensive. LAR-V's can now be had for about the same price. Frankly, given the choice, I'd use a LAR instead of a C-96 if I were going to build up another. In fact, I have..... my LAR has always had a P-Connector in the bag, and since my diluent feed and 3 cell PP02 meter system plugs into a P-Connector I just grab the LAR-V (all set as an 02 rig) , remove the P-Connector plug, plug in the dil feed-cum-PP02 probe, and set it aside. Drysuit on, AL50 or AL80 on my back, only difference is that the normal OC regulator set on that bottle also has a feed line and manual add valve that leads to the LAR-V, and then put on the LAR. Plug the dil feed line ifrom the AL50/AL80 into the dil-feed plug on the LAR and jump in. NO MODIFICATION to the LAR-V (or C-96, or P-96, or any other chest mounted 02 rig) is needed other than to add a P-Port. Works great. This leads to this: On the LAR-V setup I have no KISS valve in the system. I rely on manual 02 feed. This is a LOT simpler than it seems. Once making the bottom (assuming a fairly flat underwater topography) I set the counterlung volume so that when 02 is consumed, the auto-add valve triggers and adds more... and if depth is static, flying "constant counterlung volume" which is also "constant neutral buoyancy mode" by this method keeps PP02 static anyhow. Bottom line is that every few minutes I begin sinking towards the bottom as my buoyancy decreases due to 02 being lost as volume in the loop. A quick push of the 02 button to re-establish neutral bouyancy and guess what? When I look at my PP02 meter the PP02 has been maintained... it's absolutely intuitive. Just use the 02 add instead of your wings inflate button to maintain neutral buoyancy and you're all set. Think of this as a permutation of "constant volume/constant buoyancy, non-PP02 monitored, blind flying, 02 only CCR decompression bailout mode" and you'll be on the right track. Remedial discussions of that mode will me given upon request. It's the "02 only" emergency CCR bailout mode that compliments the "Diluent only VPM" emergency blind-flying emergency CCR mode. If ya'll cannot bail out from your CCR without any PP02 monitoring and stay alive for an hour using only EITHER diluent OR 02 (but not both) it's time to go back to school. Shall we start? ************************************************ "Diver Dave’s Foolproof Instructions on how to stay alive when you lose PP02 monitoring and need to decompress blind in the water for an hour and have access to manual 02 addition":** IF (1): PP02 is known (think diluent flush and then know PP02 by depth V/S diluent... you can do simple math, eh?) AND (2): no gas is allowed to escape (IE no mask leaks) AND (3): Buoyancy is made absolutely neutral by careful diluent addition THEN (4) any decrease in buoyancy is caused by 02 being metabolized in the loop AND THUS (5) Maintaining constant buoyancy by 02 injections into the counterlung will result in a static PP02 condition..... Get it? (See Wikipedia entry for "Boolean Logic" and/or "Truth Table" and/or "Prepositional Logic" if ya'll have a hard time keeping up...... and note that this very statement is a Boolean Logic String.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propositional_logic "It's not Rocket Science..well..... actually.... it is* Rocket Science....."* (a favorite expression down at Test Pilot School) ************************************************* The only downside of this is that the only KNOWN PP02 you can maintain is the one that is set by your diluent at that depth. This is one reason I tend to run rich diluents.... it's all about having a rich enough mix to do a decent decompression relying on using the PP02 of the diluent at my planned dec stops depths. In order to do this my mixes are rich enough so that the loop PP02 when I bottom out would scare some.. I bottom out "hot" and then burn down the loop 02 after bottoming out at the beginning of the dive. I commonly bottom out at 2.0 or higher PP02, up to 2.5 at times, no worries. That's fodder for another discussion on "how the training industry got it all wrong" but let's leave it at that for now. Bottom line there is that we dive pure 02 rebreathers to 60 feet for short durations.... in accordance with the US Navy 02 tolerance tables.... figure out that PP02 and come and talk to me. Hmm...... more misc ramlings: Anyone other than me find that the French 02 rigs that were common on Ebay for a while (having been liberated in quantity from Iraq's depots) make a good chest mounted 02 rig as a starting place for this sort of system? These are Interspiro 02 rigs that Saddam bought from France in bulk, many were "released" and are now floating around. Many came here without the 02 bottles, no bother as it allows you to use any old small bottle and a KISS valve to feed the rig while using back mounted dil. Get one! Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 26th June 2006 at 16:34.
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26th June 2006, 15:41	#25 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,111	Re: Hey Dave! Welcome to the fold dave, Im sure I still owe you a hat eating after shooting my mouth off on a list ages ago. Good job they expire when they're not collected within 28 days Shame you cant update your website though, I was an avid reader when I first started out in rebreathers. Anyway, RBW tends to be fairly tolerant, which is always good for picking up ideas from different places (who says you have to agree with everything people say). /Zak __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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26th June 2006, 15:51	#26 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Hey Dave! _ . _ _ _ . _ _ . . _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . .. _ . _ _ _. . _ .. _. ! Dave (N2VBQ, formerly operating KC4AAC, go look that one up....) __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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26th June 2006, 21:17	#28 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 475	Re: Hey Dave! I love that Dry suit /Rebreather it makes me giddy every time I see it ! Its so freekin cool. __________________ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. ----Daniel Boorstin Billy Beal SDITDI IT #3507 RBW FIGJAM commitee member
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26th June 2006, 21:50	#29 (permalink)
undrh2o Chris Miller Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 206	Re: Hey Dave! Wow does that dry suit include some sort of charcoal filter for your ..err.. personal gaseous emmisions? Something about a little dry suit squeeze always makes me need to ...well "off-gas". I pretty sure I don't want breathe it.
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27th June 2006, 07:51	#30 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Hey Dave! Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Thanks. How did you CCR the Azimuth? Dave similar to Philippe Gerin conversion regarding gas path , but using a sensor probe copied from you for PO2 monitoring. If interested a bit of an over view can be found here. http://www.matthewmaclean.com/breather/Breatherpage.htm. end result I'm pretty happy with but does need some fine tuning. due for a rehose and clean up of the internal hose routings and a few minor things Matt
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