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Old 8th February 2012, 15:55   #1 (permalink)
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164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Hi Guys and Gals

I'm still hot on the trail of all the things I need for the homebuild rebreather and have found a company to manufacture a carbon fiber tube for the canister. The size is 164mm ID with a 2mm wall and I'm looking at getting it in 280mm lengths, the only issue being I have to order a minimum of 4 which is 2 more than I need.... Would anyone be interested in taking the other 2 off my hands or if more than one person wants it I would be happy to increase the order too.

I am also happy to change the sizes to a certain degree as my needs are currently in the design stage and fairly flexible.

Cost is 175 per length.

Jools
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Old 8th February 2012, 21:41   #2 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Quote: (Originally Posted by jools) View Original Post
Hi Guys and Gals

I'm still hot on the trail of all the things I need for the homebuild rebreather and have found a company to manufacture a carbon fiber tube for the canister. The size is 164mm ID with a 2mm wall and I'm looking at getting it in 280mm lengths, the only issue being I have to order a minimum of 4 which is 2 more than I need.... Would anyone be interested in taking the other 2 off my hands or if more than one person wants it I would be happy to increase the order too.

I am also happy to change the sizes to a certain degree as my needs are currently in the design stage and fairly flexible.

Cost is 175 per length.

Jools
I have a quote for a 150mm id 3mm wall 400mm long from company in NZ and its $175 NZ and that's less than half your price and you only have to buy one http://www.carbon-tube.com/:-)
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Old 9th February 2012, 05:05   #3 (permalink)
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Old 9th February 2012, 11:15   #4 (permalink)
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Smile Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Correct URL for carbon tubes in NZ

Welcome to carbonfibretube.co.nz
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Old 9th February 2012, 14:47   #5 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Quote: (Originally Posted by jools) View Original Post
I'm still hot on the trail of all the things I need for the homebuild rebreather and have found a company to manufacture a carbon fiber tube for the canister.
Is that a good idea Jools?

Even carbon wrapped tanks suffer some the slightest abuse underwater, a cannister tube would need heaps of protection from water ingress to prevent distortion and delamination.

Better to use a plastic of metal tube and stick some of that vinyl carbon effect wrap as used on cars if you really want that look

Oh and think how much lead you'll need!!
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Old 9th February 2012, 15:02   #6 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) View Original Post
Is that a good idea Jools?

Even carbon wrapped tanks suffer some the slightest abuse underwater, a cannister tube would need heaps of protection from water ingress to prevent distortion and delamination.

Better to use a plastic of metal tube and stick some of that vinyl carbon effect wrap as used on cars if you really want that look

Oh and think how much lead you'll need!!
Hi Ben

I pondered the same issues while deciding on materials and came to these conclusions:

Bonex and SF-2 use carbon fibre for their scooters and rebreathers respectively so it can't be that delicate ( hope's)

The dude from the carbon fiber company know's what it's for (I have got quotes from 3 companies and have expressed my fears to all of them) and I asked about delamination issues and he didn't think it would be an issue (they also make some kind of case for sonar buoy's that sit at 500m deep).

The carbon fiber tube is actually cheaper than a delrin one yes you did read that right .

So that's why I decided to go carbon fibre really....

Have you had much experience with it and the issues you describe or were yours more general concerns? (not bothered which but if you used it last week and it fell to bits I must take more heed than if it's a general concern about it's properties ).

Cheers
Jools
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Old 12th February 2012, 15:08   #7 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) View Original Post
Is that a good idea Jools?

Even carbon wrapped tanks suffer some the slightest abuse underwater, a cannister tube would need heaps of protection from water ingress to prevent distortion and delamination.
You're right Ben.
As you know, we've been making composites for underwater use from as far back as over ten years ago. I remember a company coming to us after multiple failures of their carbon elements in commercial rebreathers for help. The big problem with carbon fibre is that the pressure wicks salt water up the fibre into the bonding agent. Then over time the delamination occurs, starting at a microscopic level and can be seen by the naked eye as a white discolouration. Only when you completely seal the fibre ends can you prevent delamination, and thats a two stage process, which is prohibitively expensive when your using autoclaves to cure your composites.
Remember, even a lot of plastics are unsuitable for underwater use due to porosity. We've worked with materials from simple (low porosity, high inspection) Delrin to cast urethane. The denser the material, the better it's long term endurance.

We find that some materials are being used as marketing bling rather than as high performance engineering. Look at Titanium regulators as an example.
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Old 14th February 2012, 09:01   #8 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Good Day
I have to agree that material selection is the most important part of designing and building a machine that operates in a harsh enviroment. I'm also a keen home builder and are currently building a dual type axial replacemen scrubber for my Inspo. I'm going to use carbon / fiberglass with the best possible (according to the sales person ) epoxy resin. A local company will make me any diameter composite tube I want, I just need to supply the mandrell. Making the tube 114 diameter by 200mm long and 4mm wall thickness from carbon will cost me about 166 USD. using glass wit a carbon sock as the outer layer will cost me 30 USD. I can still claim that it is build from "high tec composites" .

Regarding the delamination of the layers as per Brent's comment, there are a view things to consider during manufacturing. Firstly use the right resin system, epoxy is my choise. If you do a wet lay up dry the fabric at 70 degrees celcius in a oven / hot box before you use it. Work only in a enviroment where you have a low umidity.
There is a chemical that 3M and Jeffco (i've been told ) produce that is used in composite type of fuel tanks to protect the carbon or glass even further against chemical attack from the fuels, maybe this compound can be used to seal the carbon / glass fibers against water ingress. These "tips" will most propably not solve the problem but will contribute to quality and expected life span of the component

Last edited by rian; 14th February 2012 at 09:06..
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Old 14th February 2012, 12:24   #9 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

Quote: (Originally Posted by jools) View Original Post
Have you had much experience with it and the issues you describe or were yours more general concerns? (not bothered which but if you used it last week and it fell to bits I must take more heed than if it's a general concern about it's properties ).
Hi Jools, No- I haven't (for the reasons Brent listed) stemming from a CF project I did an University and keeping a watching brief of the material over the years as its grown in popularity, so you could call it a general concern.

Quote: (Originally Posted by rian) View Original Post
Good Day
I have to agree that material selection is the most important part of designing and building a machine that operates in a harsh enviroment.

Regarding the delamination of the layers as per Brent's comment, there are a view things to consider during manufacturing. Firstly use the right resin system, epoxy is my choise. If you do a wet lay up dry the fabric at 70 degrees celcius in a oven / hot box before you use it. Work only in a enviroment where you have a low umidity.
There is a chemical that 3M and Jeffco (i've been told ) produce that is used in composite type of fuel tanks to protect the carbon or glass even further against chemical attack from the fuels, maybe this compound can be used to seal the carbon / glass fibers against water ingress. These "tips" will most propably not solve the problem but will contribute to quality and expected life span of the component
Hi Rian, Just read back through the process you describe and then compare it to cutting a length from an off-the-shelf tube of metal or plastic...

So, what is the benefit of a slightly lighter scrubber, more expensive scrubber which may or may not be fragile depending on the success of a complex manufacturing process? (Do you have a special requirement for example- cave diving with long carry pre-dive)

FWIW I'm very interested in materials selection professionally and as a keen home-builder/modifier type diver

Last edited by Ben Field; 14th February 2012 at 12:27..
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Old 14th February 2012, 20:48   #10 (permalink)
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Re: 164mm Carbon fibre tubing in UK, joint order???

I have just ordered a 150mmX400mmX3mm carbom fiber tube from NZ for scrubber housing. This costs $135 Aus . By far the cheapest material I have ever used for home building. The company produce masts for sailing and other marine fittings. Food grade UV balanced PVC pressure pipe in wall thickness suitable for canister is only available in min 6mt length here and is much more expensive and you have to machine it as it only has a 1mm ovality spec,so you need a big lathe . The carbon fiber is laid up on a polished mandrel and has consistent diam.Wicking has been a problem with all composite lay ups since their invention but I see no reason carbon fiber tube should not give hombuilder good service life
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