Home built rebreather questions

bell47 · 16th August 2008, 12:46

Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious.

teomannaskali · 16th August 2008, 13:51

Cheaper? NO WAY! (Unless it is your 3rd or 4th rebreather)

Building something better? You do sometimes end up building something that is better, but that tends to be more fragile, or if its stronger it is bulkier etc.

I is basically a hobby, just like model aeroplanes. When I first dived my %100 homebuilt rebreather, i had such a big grin on my face that i almost had a flood.
Just like any hobby it is expensive. Not the final product but the amount of crap that you accumulate. A project that is cheap in your head in the end turns out more expensive than something you could have bought. And the out of water time is also a negative side.

Also by building things yourself you get a good understanding of how stuff really works, and what works and what doesn't. And which design can fail under water

There are some who build because what they can buy doesnt satisfy their needs, like sidemount rebreathers or bail out rebreathers. But this type is almost considered professional instead of home builder.

And finally it is best if you have dived a rebreather for some time and then start building your own.

Teoman

lizardland · 16th August 2008, 14:26

Agreed. If you start off thinking you can build something better then in a few months you start regretting it

I've lost count of the number of people I've heard say they can build something better than a KISS but I'm struggling to think of how many actually have managed it.

Cheaper... yeah right

I hate to think how many Rebreather's I could've bought if I'd never started down the homebuild route.

Often it is to fit a certain dive. For me it was to make a simple O2 rebreather for cave diving deco to save dragging loads of stage bottles to France. Others have needed sidemount units. Some people just like building things. It really does increase your understanding though, not just of rebreather design but of keeping a rebreather running. For example, by the end of it you'll be far more familiar with the Swagelok catalogue than is healthy, be able to cut PVC sewer pipe with a hand saw far neater than any machine shop, know the difference between UNF, UNC, JIC, BSP, NPT, etc.

One thing is for certain, if you want to spend time diving then buy a rebreather, if you want to spend time in your garage/workshop then build one. I did more diving in my first year of owning a KISS than I did in 4yrs of homebuilding.

Cheers,

Stuart

Skipbreather · 16th August 2008, 15:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by bell47)

Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious.

An often asked question, and not just here! A clip from the old 'Rebreather List' a number of years ago:

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Rose
To: Ken S. ; TCascione ; Rebreather List
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Homebuilders (Was: RE: bikes and breathers)

Ken said it very well,

But there is a little more as each of us have different levels of interest.

As Dr. Bob and I discussed last Sunday in San Diego as we looked out at an ocean with zero visibility, big waves, and no sensible diving....this stuff is fun. For some people simple purchase and dive is great fun. Then there are the ones who cannot by their nature just let things alone. That is why we have progress. While the commercial guys build the best stuff they can for the price they charge, often the garage or basement tinkerer comes up with the new ideas. In my own field, I have been fortunate to do that often with fiscal reward.

Many of us are attracted by technology. This field is not anywhere near mature as something like the automobile industry where many cars now look alike. It is ripe for development and that makes it really fun for the creative mind. The optimum simple rebreather that is safe, weighs 25 pounds or less, with two or more hours of dive time that can be used with as little training as oc does not exist yet, but it will....

From my view of the world, I would rather spend an evening tinkering in the workshop or on the electronics bench than watching friends, while I have a number of friends who watch friends which is damned cheaper. But as Ken says, I know every nut, bolt, sensor, and clamp....however crude. The person who buys own their unit but I really think the person who builds has a different level of ownership. Both can have fun and neither is right or wrong.

Interestingly, there is a little competition between home builders in spite of almost complete exchange of ideas. Perhaps it is pride of construction. We share ideas constantly but we do like to spring our newest baby on the others.

Just put on the flame proof suit,

Tom

PS You should see what I have in the hopper....Bet some others have some goodies to spring on me too...Looking forward to fawning over their new babies and their amazement at my genius.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken S.
To: TCascione; Rebreather List
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 7:05 PM
Subject: Homebuilders (Was: RE: bikes and breathers)

OK, you said you really wanted to know, so here's my 2 cents worth:

I modify & essentially build my own for the challenge of it. I get to exercise both my design abilities and my shop skills taking what I've got and altering it to better meet my needs. Sometimes I can save a group of $$$ and sometimes I outright hemorrhage bucks on useless junk, but either way I learn something and have an enjoyable experience in the process.

Some folks just want to rip open a hermetically sealed, bar coded blister pack and take the hardware diving. They could care less about the creative end of the process- and that's just fine. Most of us are doing this for fun. If you don't enjoy the building end of it, then that's not fun for you. Some Rebreather types are gearheads and some just want to dive a better way. The difference is that if one of my rigs acts up, I know every square inch of it and I can most likely zero in on the problem very quickly, even in the field. Since I know both its strong and weak points, there'll be a good chance I've got the spares and tools with me- and the skills to use them- to safely get it up to speed in short order.

Sometimes what you want isn't built commercially by anyone. 25 years ago I built my own airplane from scratch- and I still fly it regularly. To this day no commercial aircraft manufacturer makes anything that performs nearly as well on the same power- or looks anywhere NEAR as cosmic! I just spent 3 hours today laying up a Kevlar & carbon fiber backplate custom fit to my IDA71 conversion. It fits the rig and me PERFECTLY and is - literally- bulletproof (no more worries about my buddy's poor aim w/ the powerhead... ;-} ). Nobody makes this sort of thing, so if you think you need one, ya gotta design & build it yourself!

Along those same lines, there is no perfect Rebreather for everyone. Diver's needs and depth of pocket vary widely and what's perfect for one cries out for major tweaking to be even marginally useful to another. Those same needs mature and evolve, as well. Just as that prized first regulator you bought as a brand new OC diver eventually may have become a half forgotten spare or just a pony reg, there are doubtless a fair number of poor BP45 & BP60 conversions gathering dust in many basements of folks on this list- that they just might get back to someday, "just to play with it".

Hell, it's ALL good!

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebreather-postmaster@nwdesigns.com [mailto:Rebreather-postmaster@nwdesigns.com] On Behalf Of TCascione
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:47 PM
To: kopfab; ron@tmishop; rebreather@nwdesigns.com
Subject: Re: bikes and breathers

Now here is my question (because I really want to know). With products out there like the Megladon and Halcyon why would you want to butcher up another unit for better diving? I understand that these products are expensive (so I bought an Azimuth) but in the time it takes to retrofit another unit you could earn the difference working in McDonalds. As Ricky Ricardo said in I love Lucy "Splain Pleese"

Everything old is new again

Ken

johnv · 16th August 2008, 15:46

The other reason for Building rebreathers is to create something that is not available commercially. My requirements are quite specialised, I'll use standard gear where I can, but often this is not possible, so I resort to building or modifying gear.

John

Lure_Angler · 16th August 2008, 17:53

Hi there,

I started home building from scratch and got off a bad start. With hindsight, I would say having a mentor at the start helps to cut down the dollars spent and useless parts from building up. In addition, one'll be able to learn the ropes faster.

Tian Chang.

mathias · 16th August 2008, 18:29

Just because i like building technical projects, and because it's funny ;-)
Finally it's mutch more expensive than every thing that you can buy "off the shelf"
regards
Mathias

cramerdn · 16th August 2008, 23:48

But when all the time and expense is spent you end up with something really valuable.

You can post on any thread here and pontificate self rigiously secure in the knowledge that most any debate can be ended with "Thats why I don't dive a unit manufactured by ---"

(that actually describes only a tiny few of the homebuilders on here)

I figure its like building a kit plane. You definately are'nt going to save any time or money but lots of folks do it so it must offer something.

OceanOpportunity · 17th August 2008, 00:58

I did it for the learning curve. I learned more about Rebreather's in building one, than being trained on the three that I'm trained on with 6+ yrs experience on them. I also sought to solve many of the shortcoming found in the off the shelf units I was diving, which has proven an invaluable experience

definitely not cheaper...

gerstl_ossi · 17th August 2008, 09:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by bell47)

Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious.

Making home-builds is fun. If You really make all the parts yourself it's cheep too but it's a lot of work and time you will spent. And plan to make more than one. The first to learn, the second to improve the 3th to really dive with.

.If you have build what works fine for you, making a second unit for Your dive buddy is easy and fast.

Have fun and save diving
Oswald

16th August 2008, 12:46	#1 (permalink)
bell47 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Thomaston, ME Posts: 1	Home built rebreather questions Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious.
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 13:51	#2 (permalink)
teomannaskali RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 421	Re: Home built rebreather questions Cheaper? NO WAY! (Unless it is your 3rd or 4th rebreather) Building something better? You do sometimes end up building something that is better, but that tends to be more fragile, or if its stronger it is bulkier etc. I is basically a hobby, just like model aeroplanes. When I first dived my %100 homebuilt rebreather, i had such a big grin on my face that i almost had a flood. Just like any hobby it is expensive. Not the final product but the amount of crap that you accumulate. A project that is cheap in your head in the end turns out more expensive than something you could have bought. And the out of water time is also a negative side. Also by building things yourself you get a good understanding of how stuff really works, and what works and what doesn't. And which design can fail under water There are some who build because what they can buy doesnt satisfy their needs, like sidemount rebreathers or bail out rebreathers. But this type is almost considered professional instead of home builder. And finally it is best if you have dived a rebreather for some time and then start building your own. Teoman
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 14:26	#3 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,387	Re: Home built rebreather questions Agreed. If you start off thinking you can build something better then in a few months you start regretting it I've lost count of the number of people I've heard say they can build something better than a KISS but I'm struggling to think of how many actually have managed it. Cheaper... yeah right I hate to think how many Rebreather's I could've bought if I'd never started down the homebuild route. Often it is to fit a certain dive. For me it was to make a simple O2 rebreather for cave diving deco to save dragging loads of stage bottles to France. Others have needed sidemount units. Some people just like building things. It really does increase your understanding though, not just of rebreather design but of keeping a rebreather running. For example, by the end of it you'll be far more familiar with the Swagelok catalogue than is healthy, be able to cut PVC sewer pipe with a hand saw far neater than any machine shop, know the difference between UNF, UNC, JIC, BSP, NPT, etc. One thing is for certain, if you want to spend time diving then buy a rebreather, if you want to spend time in your garage/workshop then build one. I did more diving in my first year of owning a KISS than I did in 4yrs of homebuilding. Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 15:42	#4 (permalink)
Skipbreather Reads the fine print Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA Posts: 584	Re: Home built rebreather questions Quote: (Originally Posted by bell47) Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious. An often asked question, and not just here! A clip from the old 'Rebreather List' a number of years ago: ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Rose To: Ken S. ; TCascione ; Rebreather List Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:24 AM Subject: Re: Homebuilders (Was: RE: bikes and breathers) Ken said it very well, But there is a little more as each of us have different levels of interest. As Dr. Bob and I discussed last Sunday in San Diego as we looked out at an ocean with zero visibility, big waves, and no sensible diving....this stuff is fun. For some people simple purchase and dive is great fun. Then there are the ones who cannot by their nature just let things alone. That is why we have progress. While the commercial guys build the best stuff they can for the price they charge, often the garage or basement tinkerer comes up with the new ideas. In my own field, I have been fortunate to do that often with fiscal reward. Many of us are attracted by technology. This field is not anywhere near mature as something like the automobile industry where many cars now look alike. It is ripe for development and that makes it really fun for the creative mind. The optimum simple rebreather that is safe, weighs 25 pounds or less, with two or more hours of dive time that can be used with as little training as oc does not exist yet, but it will.... From my view of the world, I would rather spend an evening tinkering in the workshop or on the electronics bench than watching friends, while I have a number of friends who watch friends which is damned cheaper. But as Ken says, I know every nut, bolt, sensor, and clamp....however crude. The person who buys own their unit but I really think the person who builds has a different level of ownership. Both can have fun and neither is right or wrong. Interestingly, there is a little competition between home builders in spite of almost complete exchange of ideas. Perhaps it is pride of construction. We share ideas constantly but we do like to spring our newest baby on the others. Just put on the flame proof suit, Tom PS You should see what I have in the hopper....Bet some others have some goodies to spring on me too...Looking forward to fawning over their new babies and their amazement at my genius. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken S. To: TCascione; Rebreather List Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 7:05 PM Subject: Homebuilders (Was: RE: bikes and breathers) OK, you said you really wanted to know, so here's my 2 cents worth: I modify & essentially build my own for the challenge of it. I get to exercise both my design abilities and my shop skills taking what I've got and altering it to better meet my needs. Sometimes I can save a group of $$$ and sometimes I outright hemorrhage bucks on useless junk, but either way I learn something and have an enjoyable experience in the process. Some folks just want to rip open a hermetically sealed, bar coded blister pack and take the hardware diving. They could care less about the creative end of the process- and that's just fine. Most of us are doing this for fun. If you don't enjoy the building end of it, then that's not fun for you. Some Rebreather types are gearheads and some just want to dive a better way. The difference is that if one of my rigs acts up, I know every square inch of it and I can most likely zero in on the problem very quickly, even in the field. Since I know both its strong and weak points, there'll be a good chance I've got the spares and tools with me- and the skills to use them- to safely get it up to speed in short order. Sometimes what you want isn't built commercially by anyone. 25 years ago I built my own airplane from scratch- and I still fly it regularly. To this day no commercial aircraft manufacturer makes anything that performs nearly as well on the same power- or looks anywhere NEAR as cosmic! I just spent 3 hours today laying up a Kevlar & carbon fiber backplate custom fit to my IDA71 conversion. It fits the rig and me PERFECTLY and is - literally- bulletproof (no more worries about my buddy's poor aim w/ the powerhead... ;-} ). Nobody makes this sort of thing, so if you think you need one, ya gotta design & build it yourself! Along those same lines, there is no perfect Rebreather for everyone. Diver's needs and depth of pocket vary widely and what's perfect for one cries out for major tweaking to be even marginally useful to another. Those same needs mature and evolve, as well. Just as that prized first regulator you bought as a brand new OC diver eventually may have become a half forgotten spare or just a pony reg, there are doubtless a fair number of poor BP45 & BP60 conversions gathering dust in many basements of folks on this list- that they just might get back to someday, "just to play with it". Hell, it's ALL good! Ken -----Original Message----- From: Rebreather-postmaster@nwdesigns.com [mailto:Rebreather-postmaster@nwdesigns.com] On Behalf Of TCascione Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:47 PM To: kopfab; ron@tmishop; rebreather@nwdesigns.com Subject: Re: bikes and breathers Now here is my question (because I really want to know). With products out there like the Megladon and Halcyon why would you want to butcher up another unit for better diving? I understand that these products are expensive (so I bought an Azimuth) but in the time it takes to retrofit another unit you could earn the difference working in McDonalds. As Ricky Ricardo said in I love Lucy "Splain Pleese" Everything old is new again Ken __________________ "Entropy RULES! Enjoy the interim."
(Online)

16th August 2008, 15:46	#5 (permalink)
johnv RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Posts: 163	Re: Home built rebreather questions The other reason for Building rebreathers is to create something that is not available commercially. My requirements are quite specialised, I'll use standard gear where I can, but often this is not possible, so I resort to building or modifying gear. John
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 17:53	#6 (permalink)
Lure_Angler New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Not Bought Yet Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Singapore Posts: 68	Re: Home built rebreather questions Hi there, I started home building from scratch and got off a bad start. With hindsight, I would say having a mentor at the start helps to cut down the dollars spent and useless parts from building up. In addition, one'll be able to learn the ropes faster. Tian Chang. __________________ 2LT Lure_Angler minus 3 months
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 18:29	#7 (permalink)
mathias Ouroboros #31 Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Switzerland - Murten Posts: 189	Re: Home built rebreather questions Just because i like building technical projects, and because it's funny ;-) Finally it's mutch more expensive than every thing that you can buy "off the shelf" regards Mathias __________________ Our dreams are other people's nightmares ;-) Plus près du fond, plus loin des cons !
(Offline)

16th August 2008, 23:48	#8 (permalink)
cramerdn Obey my dog! Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Townsville QLD Posts: 730	Re: Home built rebreather questions But when all the time and expense is spent you end up with something really valuable. You can post on any thread here and pontificate self rigiously secure in the knowledge that most any debate can be ended with "Thats why I don't dive a unit manufactured by ---" (that actually describes only a tiny few of the homebuilders on here) I figure its like building a kit plane. You definately are'nt going to save any time or money but lots of folks do it so it must offer something. __________________ "Its better to live one day as a tiger than an entire life as a worm." "But who's ever heard of a worm skin rug?"
(Online)

17th August 2008, 00:58	#9 (permalink)
OceanOpportunity for a world of water Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Providence, RI USA Posts: 596	Re: Home built rebreather questions I did it for the learning curve. I learned more about Rebreather's in building one, than being trained on the three that I'm trained on with 6+ yrs experience on them. I also sought to solve many of the shortcoming found in the off the shelf units I was diving, which has proven an invaluable experience definitely not cheaper... __________________ Michael Lombardi Oceans of Opportunity www.oceanopportunity.com Elected Director, Society for Human Performance in Extreme Environments MN'07, The Explorers Club Project Manager, Diving a Dream
(Offline)

17th August 2008, 09:09	#10 (permalink)
gerstl_ossi RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 345	Re: Home built rebreather questions Quote: (Originally Posted by bell47) Are most guys that home build a rebreather doing it because it's finanially cheaper, or are you building one that is better than what you can buy "off the shelf", or just because you like building technical projects? Just curious. Making home-builds is fun. If You really make all the parts yourself it's cheep too but it's a lot of work and time you will spent. And plan to make more than one. The first to learn, the second to improve the 3th to really dive with. .If you have build what works fine for you, making a second unit for Your dive buddy is easy and fast. Have fun and save diving Oswald Last edited by gerstl_ossi : 17th August 2008 at 22:04.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode