Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options

tamorgen · 1st April 2008, 13:50

Hi all,
I've been looking at converting my Dolphin to mCCR, and I understand basically how it works. The problem I'm running into is the KISS style valve. I've seen threads about the McMasters parts and Clippard MVJ-2 valve, but I'm confused as to how they operate in comparison to manufactured valves, like the KISS valve or Hydrogom CMF.

I like that I can just buy a kit from Tecme for the Hydrogom, but with the Dollar to Euro exchange rate, it is extremely expensive for what it is. I've also read comments from users that it is a bit large. Also, if I want two (one for Dil and one for O2), it is cost prohibitive. I probably still will order from Martin some parts, such as the his O2/Dil injection to scrubber, and connectors for the Dolpin dosage unit, but the Hydrogom CMF is just a little too pricey.

I wouldn't have a problem buying the KISS valve, but I'm told by Dave Sutton that Jetsam doesn't sell just the valve by itself anymore. At $273 for a proven product, I wouldn't mind buying it, but if Kim isn't selling it anymore, then that's out the window.

If I want to convert my Dolphin with a KISS style valve, what is my best option? I don't have access to a lot of machinery to mill my own stuff, so I am looking for part numbers, connect part A to part B, etc.

lizardland · 1st April 2008, 14:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen)

Hi all,
I've been looking at converting my Dolphin to mCCR, and I understand basically how it works. The problem I'm running into is the KISS style valve. I've seen threads about the McMasters parts and Clippard MVJ-2 valve, but I'm confused as to how they operate in comparison to manufactured valves, like the KISS valve or Hydrogom CMF.

Have a look at: sump4.com/rebreather/d5_construction

Quote:

Also, if I want two (one for Dil and one for O2), it is cost prohibitive. I probably still will order from Martin some parts, such as the his O2/Dil injection to scrubber, and connectors for the Dolpin dosage unit, but the Hydrogom CMF is just a little too pricey.

I'd doubt you could use a Hydrogom valve for dil addition anyway, the flow rate would be far too slow if you are running an SCR, and if it's for CCR then you'd have to block the orifice which would make it the world's most expensive and over-spec'd manual addition valve. If you want a manual addition valve (rather than one that will constantly bleed gas like KISS/Hydrogom) then there are better options. A modified Ray or Dolphin unit possibly. Swagelok do a toggle valve, NArkedat90 do a remote add kit for an Inspiration valve, Golem Gear sell an expensive manual valve and then there are the trusty Clippard stem valves.

Quote:

I wouldn't have a problem buying the KISS valve, but I'm told by Dave Sutton that Jetsam doesn't sell just the valve by itself anymore. At $273 for a proven product, I wouldn't mind buying it, but if Kim isn't selling it anymore, then that's out the window.

I just got a quote from Jetsam last week for a new MAV so they are still selling them. However, I'm a KISS owner so that might be different, they may have gotten jittery over selling to homebuilders. I may be willing to sell one of my spare KISS valves but I'm in the UK so postage won't be cheap (solid lump of stainless).

Cheers,

Stuart

tamorgen · 1st April 2008, 14:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

Have a look at: sump4.com/rebreather/d5_construction

I'd doubt you could use a Hydrogom valve for dil addition anyway, the flow rate would be far too slow if you are running an SCR, and if it's for CCR then you'd have to block the orifice which would make it the world's most expensive and over-spec'd manual addition valve. If you want a manual addition valve (rather than one that will constantly bleed gas like KISS/Hydrogom) then there are better options. A modified Ray or Dolphin unit possibly. Swagelok do a toggle valve, NArkedat90 do a remote add kit for an Inspiration valve, Golem Gear sell an expensive manual valve and then there are the trusty Clippard stem valves.

I just got a quote from Jetsam last week for a new MAV so they are still selling them. However, I'm a KISS owner so that might be different, they may have gotten jittery over selling to homebuilders. I may be willing to sell one of my spare KISS valves but I'm in the UK so postage won't be cheap (solid lump of stainless).

Cheers,

Stuart

Thanks Stuart,
When I was talking about a second Hydrogom or KISS valve, I was referring to manual adding the Dil, if needed. Most of it would go through the Dolphin orifice, but I was considering a manual addition for Dil if the PPO2 got too high.

I've seen the website you sent. It seems extrodinarily complex. I'd prefer a simple in/out style, like the KISS or Hydrogom. If Kim is still selling the valve, then I'll try to buy it direct. If not, maybe I can find a KISS owner in the US to buy it through. Thanks for your help.

**wedivebc** · 1st April 2008, 15:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen)

Thanks Stuart,
When I was talking about a second Hydrogom or KISS valve, I was referring to manual adding the Dil, if needed. Most of it would go through the Dolphin orifice, but I was considering a manual addition for Dil if the PPO2 got too high.

I've seen the website you sent. It seems extrodinarily complex. I'd prefer a simple in/out style, like the KISS or Hydrogom. If Kim is still selling the valve, then I'll try to buy it direct. If not, maybe I can find a KISS owner in the US to buy it through. Thanks for your help.

I use just the demand valve on the dolphin to add dil. Bolw out you nose then inhale deeply a couple of times and you've done a reasonable dill flush

tamorgen · 1st April 2008, 15:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

I use just the demand valve on the dolphin to add dil. Bolw out you nose then inhale deeply a couple of times and you've done a reasonable dill flush

That of course is the easiest answer. I've just seen many with both. Exploring my options I guess...

Rebreathing Red · 1st April 2008, 17:40

Hey I found this on the web which mite help you. It looks like is should work. I'm not sure about the o2 flow rate is as the orfice is .004" diameter

**Dave Sutton** · 1st April 2008, 18:00

Nice solution?

Use the Golem offboard 02 add valve, and the let me help you set up a small orifice fed from one of the spare ports on the side of the valve. It'll give you 02 manual add, orifice, and is neat and clean.

We can also build up one using the Clippard valves for less cash, but using the Golem valve is *really* nice. You end up with three hoses on the valve, one to feed 02, one for 02 manual add return to rig, and one for orifice flow to rig. These last two can be manifolded together near the valve and combined into one line if desired.

Dave

**Dave Sutton** · 1st April 2008, 18:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Rebreathing Red)

Hey I found this on the web which mite help you. It looks like is should work. I'm not sure about the o2 flow rate is as the orfice is .004" diameter

Red,

You ought to add checkvalves where the 02 line and the diluent lines meet at the Cross. This way a blown line will still allow the other gas to be utilized.

Dave

tamorgen · 1st April 2008, 18:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Nice solution?

Use the Golem offboard 02 add valve, and the let me help you set up a small orifice fed from one of the spare ports on the side of the valve. It'll give you 02 manual add, orifice, and is neat and clean.

Cool Dave. Do you have a link to the Golem part? I was looking on GolemGear and I didn't see anything like that.

I was just pricing up Red's solution, minus the extra check valves you recommended. It's not bad, about $115, with 30 feet of tubing. Probably much more than I'll need. 15 green (O2) and 15 black (Dil). Of course color doesn't effect price... I'll have to see how the Golem part compares. Do you recommend the manual Dil or not? What's your philosophy?

Thanks.

Sutty · 1st April 2008, 19:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen)

I didn't see anything like that.

I had trouble finding it too - its under "manifold blocks" here

Neil

1st April 2008, 13:50	#1 (permalink)
tamorgen Gadget guru extrordinaire Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbia, MD Posts: 183	Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Hi all, I've been looking at converting my Dolphin to mCCR, and I understand basically how it works. The problem I'm running into is the KISS style valve. I've seen threads about the McMasters parts and Clippard MVJ-2 valve, but I'm confused as to how they operate in comparison to manufactured valves, like the KISS valve or Hydrogom CMF. I like that I can just buy a kit from Tecme for the Hydrogom, but with the Dollar to Euro exchange rate, it is extremely expensive for what it is. I've also read comments from users that it is a bit large. Also, if I want two (one for Dil and one for O2), it is cost prohibitive. I probably still will order from Martin some parts, such as the his O2/Dil injection to scrubber, and connectors for the Dolpin dosage unit, but the Hydrogom CMF is just a little too pricey. I wouldn't have a problem buying the KISS valve, but I'm told by Dave Sutton that Jetsam doesn't sell just the valve by itself anymore. At $273 for a proven product, I wouldn't mind buying it, but if Kim isn't selling it anymore, then that's out the window. If I want to convert my Dolphin with a KISS style valve, what is my best option? I don't have access to a lot of machinery to mill my own stuff, so I am looking for part numbers, connect part A to part B, etc.
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1st April 2008, 14:10	#2 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,387	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen) Hi all, I've been looking at converting my Dolphin to mCCR, and I understand basically how it works. The problem I'm running into is the KISS style valve. I've seen threads about the McMasters parts and Clippard MVJ-2 valve, but I'm confused as to how they operate in comparison to manufactured valves, like the KISS valve or Hydrogom CMF. Have a look at: sump4.com/rebreather/d5_construction Quote: Also, if I want two (one for Dil and one for O2), it is cost prohibitive. I probably still will order from Martin some parts, such as the his O2/Dil injection to scrubber, and connectors for the Dolpin dosage unit, but the Hydrogom CMF is just a little too pricey. I'd doubt you could use a Hydrogom valve for dil addition anyway, the flow rate would be far too slow if you are running an SCR, and if it's for CCR then you'd have to block the orifice which would make it the world's most expensive and over-spec'd manual addition valve. If you want a manual addition valve (rather than one that will constantly bleed gas like KISS/Hydrogom) then there are better options. A modified Ray or Dolphin unit possibly. Swagelok do a toggle valve, NArkedat90 do a remote add kit for an Inspiration valve, Golem Gear sell an expensive manual valve and then there are the trusty Clippard stem valves. Quote: I wouldn't have a problem buying the KISS valve, but I'm told by Dave Sutton that Jetsam doesn't sell just the valve by itself anymore. At $273 for a proven product, I wouldn't mind buying it, but if Kim isn't selling it anymore, then that's out the window. I just got a quote from Jetsam last week for a new MAV so they are still selling them. However, I'm a KISS owner so that might be different, they may have gotten jittery over selling to homebuilders. I may be willing to sell one of my spare KISS valves but I'm in the UK so postage won't be cheap (solid lump of stainless). Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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1st April 2008, 14:30	#3 (permalink)
tamorgen Gadget guru extrordinaire Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbia, MD Posts: 183	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) Have a look at: sump4.com/rebreather/d5_construction I'd doubt you could use a Hydrogom valve for dil addition anyway, the flow rate would be far too slow if you are running an SCR, and if it's for CCR then you'd have to block the orifice which would make it the world's most expensive and over-spec'd manual addition valve. If you want a manual addition valve (rather than one that will constantly bleed gas like KISS/Hydrogom) then there are better options. A modified Ray or Dolphin unit possibly. Swagelok do a toggle valve, NArkedat90 do a remote add kit for an Inspiration valve, Golem Gear sell an expensive manual valve and then there are the trusty Clippard stem valves. I just got a quote from Jetsam last week for a new MAV so they are still selling them. However, I'm a KISS owner so that might be different, they may have gotten jittery over selling to homebuilders. I may be willing to sell one of my spare KISS valves but I'm in the UK so postage won't be cheap (solid lump of stainless). Cheers, Stuart Thanks Stuart, When I was talking about a second Hydrogom or KISS valve, I was referring to manual adding the Dil, if needed. Most of it would go through the Dolphin orifice, but I was considering a manual addition for Dil if the PPO2 got too high. I've seen the website you sent. It seems extrodinarily complex. I'd prefer a simple in/out style, like the KISS or Hydrogom. If Kim is still selling the valve, then I'll try to buy it direct. If not, maybe I can find a KISS owner in the US to buy it through. Thanks for your help.
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1st April 2008, 15:54	#4 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen) Thanks Stuart, When I was talking about a second Hydrogom or KISS valve, I was referring to manual adding the Dil, if needed. Most of it would go through the Dolphin orifice, but I was considering a manual addition for Dil if the PPO2 got too high. I've seen the website you sent. It seems extrodinarily complex. I'd prefer a simple in/out style, like the KISS or Hydrogom. If Kim is still selling the valve, then I'll try to buy it direct. If not, maybe I can find a KISS owner in the US to buy it through. Thanks for your help. I use just the demand valve on the dolphin to add dil. Bolw out you nose then inhale deeply a couple of times and you've done a reasonable dill flush __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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1st April 2008, 15:59	#5 (permalink)
tamorgen Gadget guru extrordinaire Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbia, MD Posts: 183	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) I use just the demand valve on the dolphin to add dil. Bolw out you nose then inhale deeply a couple of times and you've done a reasonable dill flush That of course is the easiest answer. I've just seen many with both. Exploring my options I guess...
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1st April 2008, 18:00	#7 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Nice solution? Use the Golem offboard 02 add valve, and the let me help you set up a small orifice fed from one of the spare ports on the side of the valve. It'll give you 02 manual add, orifice, and is neat and clean. We can also build up one using the Clippard valves for less cash, but using the Golem valve is really nice. You end up with three hoses on the valve, one to feed 02, one for 02 manual add return to rig, and one for orifice flow to rig. These last two can be manifolded together near the valve and combined into one line if desired. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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1st April 2008, 18:02	#8 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by Rebreathing Red) Hey I found this on the web which mite help you. It looks like is should work. I'm not sure about the o2 flow rate is as the orfice is .004" diameter Red, You ought to add checkvalves where the 02 line and the diluent lines meet at the Cross. This way a blown line will still allow the other gas to be utilized. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
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1st April 2008, 18:30	#9 (permalink)
tamorgen Gadget guru extrordinaire Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Columbia, MD Posts: 183	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Nice solution? Use the Golem offboard 02 add valve, and the let me help you set up a small orifice fed from one of the spare ports on the side of the valve. It'll give you 02 manual add, orifice, and is neat and clean. Cool Dave. Do you have a link to the Golem part? I was looking on GolemGear and I didn't see anything like that. I was just pricing up Red's solution, minus the extra check valves you recommended. It's not bad, about $115, with 30 feet of tubing. Probably much more than I'll need. 15 green (O2) and 15 black (Dil). Of course color doesn't effect price... I'll have to see how the Golem part compares. Do you recommend the manual Dil or not? What's your philosophy? Thanks.
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1st April 2008, 19:09	#10 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 837	Re: Getting confused with KISS style valve/CMF options Quote: (Originally Posted by tamorgen) I didn't see anything like that. I had trouble finding it too - its under "manifold blocks" here Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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