New water trap for the KISS

Mark Chase · 7th March 2008, 22:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by ReikiMaster)

hi mark,
i've had another play in paint following our pm's

oring sealed baffle allowing removal for cleaning etc
scrubber tube extender to ensure airflow and excess water go into watertrap

obviously nothing is to scale so could all be a bit tight on space

John: i would expect anyone using this to be using a stand so you still stand the unit on the CL case. and have more protection for the dump.

Attachment 8324

Steve that idea for an o ring sealed baffel plate is excelent. Easy cleaning and easy to manufacture.

Good thinking.

ATB

Mark

Frankie Pellegrino · 7th March 2008, 23:28

Mark
If you ever get a final design please post it. Also what do you think the cost would be. I'm very interested. I just wish the price could be in Dollars not Pounds.
Cheers and best of luck Frankie.

O.C.Diver · 7th March 2008, 23:33

For over a year now, I have been using 1/2 a sponge in the bottom of my scrubber can. After 3 hour dives the sorb still pours out with generally no clumps. Sponge probably holds 4 ounces of water. With a little shortening (1" to 2") of the scrubber bed, a sponge(s) could be put in to a absorb 8 to 12 ounces. I can take some pics if anyone is interested in 1/2 sponge configuration.

Ted

Mark Chase · 7th March 2008, 23:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

you may have problems in the fact that the dump in the bottom will be at a greater pressure than the one in the top, which will probably blow first unless you mod it to lock it off completely.
And then theres the problem of increased bouyancy when you fill the loop with gas.

You also need to be careful of the "baffle" if it impeeds gas flow to the inlet side of the scrubber the WOB will skyrocket. gas flow does not like restrictions!

best

Dave

How bout if we kept the gas volume above the baffle the same as the current kiss? The gas path would be above the baffle and wed use gravity to get the water to go down between the center of the baffle and the SS threaded rod.

IE You think you have a flood so go slightly vertical to get the water past the baffle into the reservoir below. Then vent the reservoir by pressurizing the loop.

On the issue of the dump, It could either be pull dump operation only or it would have to be set at a lower cracking pressure than the main OPV.

The Pull dump on the inspo counter lung was used to empty water out of that so I don't see an issue with the same on the base of the KISS.

All thaughts greatfulley received.

ATB

Mark

dave t · 8th March 2008, 02:03

yes keeping the gas flow above the baffle would be ok

you will have to go vertical to get all the water out the dump and you will have to take into acount the difference in water pressure between the top and bottom of the cannister, a pull dump would probably solve this.

Yes the inspo dump worked... as long as you had something to clamp your legs around while you pressurised the loop!!!

In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!!

you also need to sort out whats a problem and whats a percieved problem

best

Dave

onetime · 8th March 2008, 03:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!!

best

Dave

That's exactly what I thought about when I was first thinking of a water trap for my CK. Then I realized I didn't really get enough water in it to make me want to go through the trouble. Even toyed with the idea of the "third" counterlung being the second bladder of a dual bladder BC and using the dump from that to expel the water.

Mark Chase · 8th March 2008, 06:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

yes keeping the gas flow above the baffle would be ok

you will have to go vertical to get all the water out the dump and you will have to take into acount the difference in water pressure between the top and bottom of the cannister, a pull dump would probably solve this.

Yes the inspo dump worked... as long as you had something to clamp your legs around while you pressurised the loop!!!

In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!!

you also need to sort out whats a problem and whats a percieved problem

best

Dave

Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working.

This trap would be a simple job on a lathe.

Maybe i was unlucky with my flood but its the second unrecoverable flood for me and the third i have witnessed on the KISS.

My first flood was caused by a bailout drill that went wrong so totally diver error but the end result was a useless CCR in about 3-5 seconds

This flood was most likely a hole/split about 2mm across in a silicone mouthpiece. Although we found some bubbling from the ADV I am not convinced it was the cause.

Janos unit flooded due to distortion in the scrubber canister.

Obviously none of these showed a failure in pos neg testing.

Maybe I was spoiled by the inspo but I kind of got used to a pint or so of water being no big deal in the unit. I had a mouthpiece fall off and i had a 02 button come apart but both incidents were manageable on the inspo.

The KISS is a fantastic unit but most users I talk to seem to agree some form of flood management would be a benefit.

ATB

Mark

Ukon · 8th March 2008, 06:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

For over a year now, I have been using 1/2 a sponge in the bottom of my scrubber can. After 3 hour dives the sorb still pours out with generally no clumps. Sponge probably holds 4 ounces of water. With a little shortening (1" to 2") of the scrubber bed, a sponge(s) could be put in to a absorb 8 to 12 ounces. I can take some pics if anyone is interested in 1/2 sponge configuration.

Ted

Some pics would be good, I'd be interested in seeing your set up.

Thanks!

dave t · 8th March 2008, 08:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working.

This trap would be a simple job on a lathe.

Maybe i was unlucky with my flood but its the second unrecoverable flood for me and the third i have witnessed on the KISS.

My first flood was caused by a bailout drill that went wrong so totally diver error but the end result was a useless CCR in about 3-5 seconds

This flood was most likely a hole/split about 2mm across in a silicone mouthpiece. Although we found some bubbling from the ADV I am not convinced it was the cause.

Janos unit flooded due to distortion in the scrubber canister.

Obviously none of these showed a failure in pos neg testing.

Maybe I was spoiled by the inspo but I kind of got used to a pint or so of water being no big deal in the unit. I had a mouthpiece fall off and i had a 02 button come apart but both incidents were manageable on the inspo.

The KISS is a fantastic unit but most users I talk to seem to agree some form of flood management would be a benefit.

ATB

Mark

I agree that the kiss is not so good at handling a flood, but if you want to just mop up dribble and a bit of condesation then extend the bottom of the scrubber and fit a sponge system, its simple and automatic.
If you want flood recovery then first I would consider where the most likely flood path is, and I guess thats the exhale side (but not only) and once its flooded will the unit be breathable if its recoverd??
What I mean is you go to all the trouble of fitting a means to get the flood water out and when you do the unit is still not breathable cos either the flood has done too much damage or the water just keeps p1ssing in again. Trying to fix the leak underwater can be hard!!

ReikiMaster · 8th March 2008, 08:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working.

This trap would be a simple job on a lathe.

Mark

how about a dump on a hose block based around a bov style valve with a dump on it,

ive seen meg /inspo divers (cant remember which) faffing about trying to squeeze the hose to block it to get the water into the t-piece to the counter lung

hose plug.JPG

last image is just offsetting the dump and the switch potentiall making it easier to make the unit

{Edit: its too early in the morning!!! just spotted dave t's comment about a tee and a thrid CL, its amazing where my inspiration comes from at times

}

7th March 2008, 22:38	#11 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,858	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by ReikiMaster) hi mark, i've had another play in paint following our pm's oring sealed baffle allowing removal for cleaning etc scrubber tube extender to ensure airflow and excess water go into watertrap obviously nothing is to scale so could all be a bit tight on space John: i would expect anyone using this to be using a stand so you still stand the unit on the CL case. and have more protection for the dump. Attachment 8324 Steve that idea for an o ring sealed baffel plate is excelent. Easy cleaning and easy to manufacture. Good thinking. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
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7th March 2008, 23:28	#12 (permalink)
Frankie Pellegrino Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NYC New York Posts: 135	Re: New water trap for the KISS Mark If you ever get a final design please post it. Also what do you think the cost would be. I'm very interested. I just wish the price could be in Dollars not Pounds. Cheers and best of luck Frankie.
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7th March 2008, 23:33	#13 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 244	Re: New water trap for the KISS For over a year now, I have been using 1/2 a sponge in the bottom of my scrubber can. After 3 hour dives the sorb still pours out with generally no clumps. Sponge probably holds 4 ounces of water. With a little shortening (1" to 2") of the scrubber bed, a sponge(s) could be put in to a absorb 8 to 12 ounces. I can take some pics if anyone is interested in 1/2 sponge configuration. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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7th March 2008, 23:56	#14 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,858	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) you may have problems in the fact that the dump in the bottom will be at a greater pressure than the one in the top, which will probably blow first unless you mod it to lock it off completely. And then theres the problem of increased bouyancy when you fill the loop with gas. You also need to be careful of the "baffle" if it impeeds gas flow to the inlet side of the scrubber the WOB will skyrocket. gas flow does not like restrictions! best Dave How bout if we kept the gas volume above the baffle the same as the current kiss? The gas path would be above the baffle and wed use gravity to get the water to go down between the center of the baffle and the SS threaded rod. IE You think you have a flood so go slightly vertical to get the water past the baffle into the reservoir below. Then vent the reservoir by pressurizing the loop. On the issue of the dump, It could either be pull dump operation only or it would have to be set at a lower cracking pressure than the main OPV. The Pull dump on the inspo counter lung was used to empty water out of that so I don't see an issue with the same on the base of the KISS. All thaughts greatfulley received. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

8th March 2008, 02:03	#15 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 665	Re: New water trap for the KISS yes keeping the gas flow above the baffle would be ok you will have to go vertical to get all the water out the dump and you will have to take into acount the difference in water pressure between the top and bottom of the cannister, a pull dump would probably solve this. Yes the inspo dump worked... as long as you had something to clamp your legs around while you pressurised the loop!!! In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!! you also need to sort out whats a problem and whats a percieved problem best Dave
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8th March 2008, 03:23	#16 (permalink)
onetime Classic KISSer #138 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 684	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!! best Dave That's exactly what I thought about when I was first thinking of a water trap for my CK. Then I realized I didn't really get enough water in it to make me want to go through the trouble. Even toyed with the idea of the "third" counterlung being the second bladder of a dual bladder BC and using the dump from that to expel the water.
(Offline)

8th March 2008, 06:08	#17 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,858	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) yes keeping the gas flow above the baffle would be ok you will have to go vertical to get all the water out the dump and you will have to take into acount the difference in water pressure between the top and bottom of the cannister, a pull dump would probably solve this. Yes the inspo dump worked... as long as you had something to clamp your legs around while you pressurised the loop!!! In my very humble opinion you want to try and keep water out the cannister all together. water traps could be a "tee" in the exhale hose leading to a third cl maybe!!! you also need to sort out whats a problem and whats a percieved problem best Dave Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working. This trap would be a simple job on a lathe. Maybe i was unlucky with my flood but its the second unrecoverable flood for me and the third i have witnessed on the KISS. My first flood was caused by a bailout drill that went wrong so totally diver error but the end result was a useless CCR in about 3-5 seconds This flood was most likely a hole/split about 2mm across in a silicone mouthpiece. Although we found some bubbling from the ADV I am not convinced it was the cause. Janos unit flooded due to distortion in the scrubber canister. Obviously none of these showed a failure in pos neg testing. Maybe I was spoiled by the inspo but I kind of got used to a pint or so of water being no big deal in the unit. I had a mouthpiece fall off and i had a 02 button come apart but both incidents were manageable on the inspo. The KISS is a fantastic unit but most users I talk to seem to agree some form of flood management would be a benefit. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

8th March 2008, 06:10	#18 (permalink)
Ukon New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Northeast Posts: 54	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) For over a year now, I have been using 1/2 a sponge in the bottom of my scrubber can. After 3 hour dives the sorb still pours out with generally no clumps. Sponge probably holds 4 ounces of water. With a little shortening (1" to 2") of the scrubber bed, a sponge(s) could be put in to a absorb 8 to 12 ounces. I can take some pics if anyone is interested in 1/2 sponge configuration. Ted Some pics would be good, I'd be interested in seeing your set up. Thanks!
(Offline)

8th March 2008, 08:23	#19 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 665	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working. This trap would be a simple job on a lathe. Maybe i was unlucky with my flood but its the second unrecoverable flood for me and the third i have witnessed on the KISS. My first flood was caused by a bailout drill that went wrong so totally diver error but the end result was a useless CCR in about 3-5 seconds This flood was most likely a hole/split about 2mm across in a silicone mouthpiece. Although we found some bubbling from the ADV I am not convinced it was the cause. Janos unit flooded due to distortion in the scrubber canister. Obviously none of these showed a failure in pos neg testing. Maybe I was spoiled by the inspo but I kind of got used to a pint or so of water being no big deal in the unit. I had a mouthpiece fall off and i had a 02 button come apart but both incidents were manageable on the inspo. The KISS is a fantastic unit but most users I talk to seem to agree some form of flood management would be a benefit. ATB Mark I agree that the kiss is not so good at handling a flood, but if you want to just mop up dribble and a bit of condesation then extend the bottom of the scrubber and fit a sponge system, its simple and automatic. If you want flood recovery then first I would consider where the most likely flood path is, and I guess thats the exhale side (but not only) and once its flooded will the unit be breathable if its recoverd?? What I mean is you go to all the trouble of fitting a means to get the flood water out and when you do the unit is still not breathable cos either the flood has done too much damage or the water just keeps p1ssing in again. Trying to fix the leak underwater can be hard!!
(Offline)

8th March 2008, 08:58	#20 (permalink)
ReikiMaster CK #21 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Reading Berkshire Posts: 175	Re: New water trap for the KISS Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Id love to keep the water out of the can but as an ex toolmaker i can see the complexity of the system making it fail on a cost basis. I can only see a molding working. This trap would be a simple job on a lathe. Mark how about a dump on a hose block based around a bov style valve with a dump on it, ive seen meg /inspo divers (cant remember which) faffing about trying to squeeze the hose to block it to get the water into the t-piece to the counter lung hose plug.JPG last image is just offsetting the dump and the switch potentiall making it easier to make the unit {Edit: its too early in the morning!!! just spotted dave t's comment about a tee and a thrid CL, its amazing where my inspiration comes from at times } Last edited by ReikiMaster : 8th March 2008 at 09:03.
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