Homebuild training and certification available

Dutchy · 20th February 2008, 20:06

Add to that Dave Sutton's instruction on all sorts of Rebreather's and Russian stuff in particular and half of all continents (Not counting Antarctica) are now covered...

**Dave Sutton** · 20th February 2008, 20:21

RSDAS has several instructors and has been teaching homebuilts and IDA series in Switzerland, Germany, England, the US, and Brazil for almost 10 years. Interesting that mainstream instructors now see the value. Surprised also that this is a sticky thread. No admin conflict of interest noted...

Dave

.

lizardland · 20th February 2008, 21:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

so after designing and building you own unit you then instruct the instructor how it works in order for him to instruct you how to use it....

You do have to wonder why anyone who didn't know how to use a rebreather would build one.

I suppose the Wright brothers had a similar conversation...

"Look we've invented the aeroplane"

"Great, what are you going to do with it?"

"Er..."

"Twat."

**Dave Sutton** · 20th February 2008, 22:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

You do have to wonder why anyone who didn't know how to use a rebreather would build one.

Nobody apparently really has, considering their excellent safety record. But it's a good step to not overlook the value of training for them. I believe that eventually all Rebreather training will be generic anyhow, with familiarization done as per invidual requirements on specific rigs, no different than the way we train pilots.

Orville and Wilbur had fun until the FAA came and asked for their licenses....

Dave

.

Nad · 21st February 2008, 06:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Nobody apparently really has, considering their excellent safety record. But it's a good step to not overlook the value of training for them. I believe that eventually all Rebreather training will be generic anyhow, with familiarization done as per invidual requirements on specific rigs, no different than the way we train pilots.

.

Yes but how could you explain to someone who build a machine how it work.
I think an Homebuilder should have normal training. Then he can build his own rebreather and thanks that he will know how it works.

I did almost the same, just without formal training. I dived my unit also with Trimix I did many modifications just because of curiosity, and I'm still here.
The funny is that I'm not a scientist, an engineer or a magician.

We need some selfconfidence on what we are doing otherwise better do something else more usual.

Just my 2 cents, maybe a bit strong but true.

Nad

***Decodiver*** · 21st February 2008, 08:53

All valid points, the reason we are doing this is because we have received feedback that Homebuilders are being denied the possibility to travel and dive their units from centres that ask for proof of certification or of relevant training for certain dives.

My experience of most self-builders is, that whilst they are completely bonkers

, they do, on the whole have a reasonable grasp of what they are doing and Phil and I, with our experience, should have a decent grasp of what should be included in a homebuild CCR.

If someone turns up with a unit with no oxygen monitoring with at least 2 cells, we ain't going diving, same for someone without an ADV and no manual diluent add, extreme examples but nevertheless important to know

.

This is not being forced upon anyone, if they see a need for it, and market dynamics have already demonstrated that to us, then given our location within Europe, outside of the EU and it's sometime 'Nanny-State' regulations, then we are happy, as divers and as a business, to assist.

However the 'I am a poor homebuilder so can I get a discount?' will not work. If my 75 year old Mother wants CCR training she is paying full whack and she had better meet the prerequisites...................

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Nad · 21st February 2008, 09:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

All valid points, the reason we are doing this is because we have received feedback that Homebuilders are being denied the possibility to travel and dive their units from centres that ask for proof of certification or of relevant training for certain dives.

My experience of most self-builders is, that whilst they are completely bonkers

, they do, on the whole have a reasonable grasp of what they are doing and Phil and I, with our experience, should have a decent grasp of what should be included in a homebuild CCR.

If someone turns up with a unit with no oxygen monitoring with at least 2 cells, we ain't going diving, same for someone without an ADV and no manual diluent add, extreme examples but nevertheless important to know

.

This is not being forced upon anyone, if they see a need for it, and market dynamics have already demonstrated that to us, then given our location within Europe, outside of the EU and it's sometime 'Nanny-State' regulations, then we are happy, as divers and as a business, to assist.

Dave Cooper.

All valid points and altruistics but I think you're gonna walk on an insidious area (by law and responsability).
It could be difficult to explain that without your help this diver wouldn't never dive trimix, it could look as if you gave him motivations.
About the machine: something is if the homebuilder build the unit from zero, something else is if he modify an existing rebreather. Modifications are not supported by the factory.
Try to have your ass covered.

Good Luck.

Nad

dave t · 21st February 2008, 15:28

I have to admit in the past I have done one or two courses for homebuilder/modifiers and as there was no generic Rebreather qualification then I gave them a cert that the unit resembled the closest.

As more and more liability risk appears in our nanny state we call the EU I am not sure I would do it again.

Dave

***Decodiver*** · 21st February 2008, 16:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

I have to admit in the past I have done one or two courses for homebuilder/modifiers and as there was no generic Rebreather qualification then I gave them a cert that the unit resembled the closest.

As more and more liability risk appears in our nanny state we call the EU I am not sure I would do it again.

Dave

You naughty boy!!

**jmurba** · 25th March 2008, 09:21

Hi,

your idea is brillant.
I was thinking about DYI air planes.
In france anybody has the rigth to built a plane ,
the home built are not subjected to air tests as normal air planes but have to pass an inspection from the administration.
the inspection is quite simple , the civil servant instructor make sure that the plans have been respected and that the good matirials have been used, then there is a small test in fligth to werify the landing and take off distances.
after that the plane can only be use for non commercial fligth, the plane can't be sold without an administrative authorization to avoid any hidden tradding.
when the plane is certified, one have the rigth to fly it like an other plane uneder a navigability certificate (cnra) , the pilot can also transport passengers , the only thing is that there is a plate inside the cabinet stating that this plane has not passed the normal tests fligth and that it could be dangerous.

the same could maybe be imagined for home builded rebreather.
I mean maybe not a test but a restriction in the used of those rebreather that could be used only by their builders, not by trainees or diving centers clients.

In france the law prohibits any home built in clubs, in fact eny non ec rebreathers in diving centers...even their owners !!!!

it means that all the divers that refused the yello box in the nineties have been brougth out of their regular clubs...

I was in a club , we purchased dolphin, started modifying them, constructing gauges, shellls etc....because we did not want to be obliged to buy a buddy (the only ccr certified at this time), and when the law was issued ....we were forced out the clubs...we had to buy ribs , compressors surpressors to go on diving our machines.

providing a diver certification is nice, but we could go ahead and apply for an home buit legal status that would make us exist again .

not that diving an home buit is illegal, but just that beeing able to dive it legaly in clubs would be something great.

what do you think of this

regards

jean mi

20th February 2008, 20:06	#11 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 699	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Add to that Dave Sutton's instruction on all sorts of Rebreather's and Russian stuff in particular and half of all continents (Not counting Antarctica) are now covered... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
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20th February 2008, 20:21	#12 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,512	Re: Homebuild training and certification available RSDAS has several instructors and has been teaching homebuilts and IDA series in Switzerland, Germany, England, the US, and Brazil for almost 10 years. Interesting that mainstream instructors now see the value. Surprised also that this is a sticky thread. No admin conflict of interest noted... Dave . __________________ . "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Professional Small Boy: Never Successfully Cubicled.
(Online)

20th February 2008, 21:58	#13 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,189	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) so after designing and building you own unit you then instruct the instructor how it works in order for him to instruct you how to use it.... You do have to wonder why anyone who didn't know how to use a rebreather would build one. I suppose the Wright brothers had a similar conversation... "Look we've invented the aeroplane" "Great, what are you going to do with it?" "Er..." "Twat." __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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20th February 2008, 22:02	#14 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,512	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) You do have to wonder why anyone who didn't know how to use a rebreather would build one. Nobody apparently really has, considering their excellent safety record. But it's a good step to not overlook the value of training for them. I believe that eventually all Rebreather training will be generic anyhow, with familiarization done as per invidual requirements on specific rigs, no different than the way we train pilots. Orville and Wilbur had fun until the FAA came and asked for their licenses.... Dave . __________________ . "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Professional Small Boy: Never Successfully Cubicled.
(Online)

21st February 2008, 06:33	#15 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 941	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Nobody apparently really has, considering their excellent safety record. But it's a good step to not overlook the value of training for them. I believe that eventually all Rebreather training will be generic anyhow, with familiarization done as per invidual requirements on specific rigs, no different than the way we train pilots. . Yes but how could you explain to someone who build a machine how it work. I think an Homebuilder should have normal training. Then he can build his own rebreather and thanks that he will know how it works. I did almost the same, just without formal training. I dived my unit also with Trimix I did many modifications just because of curiosity, and I'm still here. The funny is that I'm not a scientist, an engineer or a magician. We need some selfconfidence on what we are doing otherwise better do something else more usual. Just my 2 cents, maybe a bit strong but true. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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21st February 2008, 08:53	#16 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,168	Re: Homebuild training and certification available All valid points, the reason we are doing this is because we have received feedback that Homebuilders are being denied the possibility to travel and dive their units from centres that ask for proof of certification or of relevant training for certain dives. My experience of most self-builders is, that whilst they are completely bonkers , they do, on the whole have a reasonable grasp of what they are doing and Phil and I, with our experience, should have a decent grasp of what should be included in a homebuild CCR. If someone turns up with a unit with no oxygen monitoring with at least 2 cells, we ain't going diving, same for someone without an ADV and no manual diluent add, extreme examples but nevertheless important to know . This is not being forced upon anyone, if they see a need for it, and market dynamics have already demonstrated that to us, then given our location within Europe, outside of the EU and it's sometime 'Nanny-State' regulations, then we are happy, as divers and as a business, to assist. However the 'I am a poor homebuilder so can I get a discount?' will not work. If my 75 year old Mother wants CCR training she is paying full whack and she had better meet the prerequisites................... Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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21st February 2008, 09:53	#17 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 941	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) All valid points, the reason we are doing this is because we have received feedback that Homebuilders are being denied the possibility to travel and dive their units from centres that ask for proof of certification or of relevant training for certain dives. My experience of most self-builders is, that whilst they are completely bonkers , they do, on the whole have a reasonable grasp of what they are doing and Phil and I, with our experience, should have a decent grasp of what should be included in a homebuild CCR. If someone turns up with a unit with no oxygen monitoring with at least 2 cells, we ain't going diving, same for someone without an ADV and no manual diluent add, extreme examples but nevertheless important to know . This is not being forced upon anyone, if they see a need for it, and market dynamics have already demonstrated that to us, then given our location within Europe, outside of the EU and it's sometime 'Nanny-State' regulations, then we are happy, as divers and as a business, to assist. Dave Cooper. All valid points and altruistics but I think you're gonna walk on an insidious area (by law and responsability). It could be difficult to explain that without your help this diver wouldn't never dive trimix, it could look as if you gave him motivations. About the machine: something is if the homebuilder build the unit from zero, something else is if he modify an existing rebreather. Modifications are not supported by the factory. Try to have your ass covered. Good Luck. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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21st February 2008, 15:28	#18 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 621	Re: Homebuild training and certification available I have to admit in the past I have done one or two courses for homebuilder/modifiers and as there was no generic Rebreather qualification then I gave them a cert that the unit resembled the closest. As more and more liability risk appears in our nanny state we call the EU I am not sure I would do it again. Dave
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21st February 2008, 16:32	#19 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,168	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) I have to admit in the past I have done one or two courses for homebuilder/modifiers and as there was no generic Rebreather qualification then I gave them a cert that the unit resembled the closest. As more and more liability risk appears in our nanny state we call the EU I am not sure I would do it again. Dave You naughty boy!! __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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25th March 2008, 09:21	#20 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 672	Re: Homebuild training and certification available Hi, your idea is brillant. I was thinking about DYI air planes. In france anybody has the rigth to built a plane , the home built are not subjected to air tests as normal air planes but have to pass an inspection from the administration. the inspection is quite simple , the civil servant instructor make sure that the plans have been respected and that the good matirials have been used, then there is a small test in fligth to werify the landing and take off distances. after that the plane can only be use for non commercial fligth, the plane can't be sold without an administrative authorization to avoid any hidden tradding. when the plane is certified, one have the rigth to fly it like an other plane uneder a navigability certificate (cnra) , the pilot can also transport passengers , the only thing is that there is a plate inside the cabinet stating that this plane has not passed the normal tests fligth and that it could be dangerous. the same could maybe be imagined for home builded rebreather. I mean maybe not a test but a restriction in the used of those rebreather that could be used only by their builders, not by trainees or diving centers clients. In france the law prohibits any home built in clubs, in fact eny non ec rebreathers in diving centers...even their owners !!!! it means that all the divers that refused the yello box in the nineties have been brougth out of their regular clubs... I was in a club , we purchased dolphin, started modifying them, constructing gauges, shellls etc....because we did not want to be obliged to buy a buddy (the only ccr certified at this time), and when the law was issued ....we were forced out the clubs...we had to buy ribs , compressors surpressors to go on diving our machines. providing a diver certification is nice, but we could go ahead and apply for an home buit legal status that would make us exist again . not that diving an home buit is illegal, but just that beeing able to dive it legaly in clubs would be something great. what do you think of this regards jean mi __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
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