Anyone up to “no good” with design ideas?

montyg · 24th September 2005, 09:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

As to the Third World, the only differences I see between the Third World and First World are:
1. In the Third World, the value of life is even closer to zero than in the West, but events in the West show we are catching up on this point quite fast.
2. The difference between rich and poor is greater, because instead of governments maxing the return on the population they govern, it is private individuals/criminals, or private individuals dressed up as governments. (Again, we are catching up on that in the West).

My §0.02.
Alex

The difference from a 3rd world rebreather diver and 3rd world home builder's point of view is that we have to import at great expense in terms of time and money or improvise big time.

We have a "culture" of finding simple solutions to complex problems.

It's a challenge and we enjoy it.

montyg · 24th September 2005, 09:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

If someone in the Third World has enough resources to develop and use a rebreather, albeit home-build, but not enough to do it properly, they are just accentuating point 1 above. If they want a rebreather and resources are borderline, then why not buy a second hand unit? Some ex-military units are a few hundred bucks in the Third World. A unit developed by the military 20 years ago has, in most cases, less chance of killing someone than a home brew.

Linked with the above, is use of a home brew rebreather without any rebreather training. Does someone who makes a home brew out of plumbing bits in the Thirld World spend $1000 on a course on a commercial rebreather before using their own? Where is that flying pig ....?

My §0.02.
Alex

This person in the Third World has a commercial unit, has modified another commerical unit and is building another from scratch.

What gives you the idea that we don't have enough resources to do it properly? It just takes more time, money and effort.

I agree that I could get an ex-military unit for a few hunderd bucks and I intend to see what it's like some time but the shipping cost is the problem. And it doesn't address your concerns about training.

You are also quite right that we do not spend $1000 on a commercial rebreather course, the going rate here is more like $300 excluding gas, pool fees and boat charter costs.

divetheworld · 24th September 2005, 09:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Jan has done a good site and I have visited it a fair few times. My question was "why?"

The reason was in the next sentence. There are those that know................

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Exactly the problem with more than a few of them.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

And the strengths that made them successful and enjoyable to dive.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Come on: Military rebreathers are the most successful commercially, until their makers lose the contract, and very few modern military units are home builds. Of the sports home builds, I would suggest the industry has suffered as a result of their home build origins due to failure modes which would never have been there if they were designed professionally.

I disagree, what was successful about the military rebreathers? They were so expensive that no-one could afford to buy them. I'm not going to re-list all their bad points, the users of the unit have done so many times on this board, but suffice to say that you had better have more than academic knowledge to use one and access to lots of spares especially the 'burn up' electronics. How many were sold to non-military? And how many are left as standard?

You used the word commercially, so based on units sold.

The only successful military rebreathers were used in less that 10m.

The most successful rebreathers in the world today are the Drager and the AP.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Something that you have dived 400 hours on, does not prove something is safe for a billion hours: the baseline for a life critical design. The problem is companies have tested kit for hundreds, or even thousands of hours, release it to the market, and suddenly find their product has a 1% Club due to design defects.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Alex, you can try to sell your philosophy and your design until the cows come home, but mines been in the water and fully functions perfectly. And has done for years. Failure rate to date is only due to human error and diver ****-ups. No mechanical or electrical component has caused me a problem. All the pictures of my kit show it in salt water attached to a diver. All the components are borne out of necessity and not a room full of brainstormers looking for gimmicks to fit so any 'burger flipper' can dive it. A rebreather is a tool for me, one to get me where I want to go, for the time I want to be there with as little risk as is acceptable.

Furthermore I use it every weekend, in the sea. 400 hrs without a failure is good enough for me, and when or if is goes tits up, I'll be ready for it. Anyone else do it differently?

By the time anything like you describe gets into the shops, I'll have more than just the one world record for underwater endurance to my name.

Maybe you would care to design a replacement for the Kirby 18? I'm sure you can simulate a 1000% better design. Problem is, if it isn’t broke - don’t fix it is a good philosophy too.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

It goes back to the points I raised: good design in life critical systems costs money and until the volumes started flowing, which is only very recently, there was just not enough return on the investment. Almost all rebreather developments were inadequately funded. Now funding is starting to get to the coal face, it is going to be interesting to look back in a decade at what people use today. The next decade is going to see a huge change in eCCRs, and I do not think those changes are going to come from home builds.

Cheers,

Alex

And I disagree there too, I think that the market will dictate those designs, not what you or your designers think is best for us. What will work is what is proven in deep and cave exploration. What is trusted is also what is proven and what is safe is what is as simple as is needed.

Time beneath the surface teaches us experience. And speaking of which, thats where I'm going now. Diving on my rebreather.

So, enough talking for me. See you all after the weekend.

The poll is shaping up nicely, if you read into it properly. No homebuilds do anything new, they do it differently.
Re invent the wheel? No, just make it my wheel.

AD_ward9 · 24th September 2005, 11:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

Maybe you would care to design a replacement for the Kirby 18? I'm sure you can simulate a 1000% better design. Problem is, if it isn’t broke - don’t fix it is a good philosophy too.

Thanks. You appear to be agreeing with my point: there is no point reinventing the wheel.

On the military units, you need comment from Divex, Carlton, Draeger and others. The volumes and price of some of these units provide margins that make AP pale, especially the latest US initiative/contracts. Trouble is the contract winners do well and the others sweat: it tends to be all or nothing.

On testing, my own personal unit has had about half of the features we talk about and has been dived for years in the KMA form. Combined as a commercial unit, you are right, a number of companies are planning this, but it is not available yet. I am sure you will set some more records while we wait.

The result of the process you describe has meant that lawyers, insurance men and legislation are stepping in, forcing the issue. This means the market is demanding it. Just see the Vision electronics: put in a form of scrubber indicator, and sales soar. People do want safety and are speaking with their wallets.

Stepping back, what are you saying? That something someone has built in a bedroom, has had no real testing, no review, no QA, electronic failure rates of a few thousand hours, is preferable in the market to something that is the same configuration but that has these checks? A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour.

Your risk balance is one that you want to set depth records. That camp is quite small: as you know we were in an adjacent camp in the Extreme Dive Team. Most people want to go diving, come back, with absolutely minimum risk.

For extreme diving, having things like WOB monitors, real scrubber and CO2 monitors, are useful, and I do not see them in the home build camp. Some of the innovations Divex have made, to simplify diving,also not in the home build camp. The recent work APD have done with different innovations, did start with home build, but with their new test facility it is clear where they believe the future is: moving to professional design. Use of test facilities by rebreather companies has grown many fold in just a few years, again, the industry is moving from home build origins into something more mature.
Anyhow, Saturday, a day to go diving...
Cheers
Alex

eanxdiver · 24th September 2005, 13:32

Philippe,

Where do you get these clear replacements for the CK?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

I use clear cast acrylic (clone of the original PVC) on my Kiss & I'm happy with it. See here: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle....php?i=743&c=4 or here: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle....php?i=393&c=4
Best
Philippe

divetheworld · 24th September 2005, 18:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Thanks. You appear to be agreeing with my point: there is no point reinventing the wheel.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

No problem. but you may have missed the intentions of my comment.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

On the military units, you need comment from Divex, Carlton, Draeger and others. The volumes and price of some of these units provide margins that make AP pale, especially the latest US initiative/contracts. Trouble is the contract winners do well and the others sweat: it tends to be all or nothing.

No argument there, but not relevant to our discussion on relative success. Anyway, you might agree that winning or losing a military contract doesnt mean a rebreather is good or bad so maybe a mute point?
After all, the MK15/16 rebreathers can hardly be called good anymore, like the CIS they were pioneering but by todays standards you have to have a mission specific use for them or your upto no good. Those heros on here who use them (yes I know who you are) would agree that they are far from everyones cup of tea.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

On testing, my own personal unit has had about half of the features we talk about and has been dived for years in the KMA form. Combined as a commercial unit, you are right, a number of companies are planning this, but it is not available yet. I am sure you will set some more records while we wait.

Question- Your pictures relating to KMA form are missing. Could you explain the KMA form?

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

The result of the process you describe has meant that lawyers, insurance men and legislation are stepping in, forcing the issue. This means the market is demanding it. Just see the Vision electronics: put in a form of scrubber indicator, and sales soar. People do want safety and are speaking with their wallets.

You might want to re-evaluate your market research/opinion. If you think the scrubber monitor is the reason for vision sales you may be surprised to find that it is only a part of the reason. If it was a primary reason then you would see retro-fits to existing units.
But that isnt fact, just my interpretation.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Stepping back, what are you saying? That something someone has built in a bedroom, has had no real testing, no review, no QA, electronic failure rates of a few thousand hours, is preferable in the market to something that is the same configuration but that has these checks? .

There has not been a homebrew I have made which has the same configuration as one on the market. That is the point of a homebrew. Look at your poll, it tells you this is a main reason for building them. So in part, yes I prefer my homebrew because I made it, I know it, I trust it because of this. When you homebuild, you appreciate this. You dont homebrew, and that shows.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour.

Can you be more specific here? I'm trying to interpret your comment.
Which homebrew are you talking about that short cut it to the market? the Inspo? Or are you saying homebrews cause fatalities. Please clarify your statement. Be specific.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Your risk balance is one that you want to set depth records. That camp is quite small: as you know we were in an adjacent camp in the Extreme Dive Team. Most people want to go diving, come back, with absolutely minimum risk.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it?
Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you? I take it you didnt learn the "shoot the bag with you attached" trick on that particular dive then. Is the group no longer together? Your site doesnt appear to have been updated lately.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

For extreme diving, having things like WOB monitors, real scrubber and CO2 monitors, are useful, and I do not see them in the home build camp. Some of the innovations Divex have made, to simplify diving,also not in the home build camp. The recent work APD have done with different innovations, did start with home build, but with their new test facility it is clear where they believe the future is: moving to professional design. Use of test facilities by rebreather companies has grown many fold in just a few years, again, the industry is moving from home build origins into something more mature.
Anyhow, Saturday, a day to go diving...
Cheers
Alex

Did you go diving? Winds are nasty down here, try again tomorrow.

regardless of my natural cinicism, I hope you make your rebreather one day. If it does what it says on the tin, I would try one out. When will that be then?

AD_ward9 · 24th September 2005, 21:32

This is becoming a one on one debate that could be better handled in the pub. Dealing with your Qs briefly:

The KMA was posted in two forms. Look for the Inspo scrubber with the black delrin top. The pictures on the gallery are not mock ups, they are units that went through testing. See proto II, proto III pics and now proto IV is in prep.

Your Q "I am interested in the slide 21 which shows a single hose breathing loop, looks like an AP inflator instead of a mouthpeice. How did that work?"
We normally use conventional two hoses, but did quite a lot with different variants of single hose, including asking someone to try to breathe a unit in pendulum mode, and running two hoses in one. Only the mouthpiece works on that hose in that picture: it is just a pendulum system. We developed a twin hose to one mouthpiece design, and even patented it. In hindsight, very similar indeed to what was done for the Joker in France. One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated. For the later, single hoses were the approach we were taking, but in the last lot of tests, we found a better solution.

"You dont homebrew, and that shows." Actually I do, but reasonably well resourced and mods of existing kit rather than from scratch.

"I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it?" It was done by Mark and Sue Reeves. The dive trip/course adverts were removed recently.

"Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you?"
I was the Safety Officer and Deep Safety Diver on that particular expedition. That is why the gallery of the Dasher Expedition shows me in the water, on a Rebreather.

"I take it you didnt learn the shoot the bag with you attached trick on that particular dive then. " Was there a long pub visit instead of your dive today?

Q on Rebreather safety: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/artic...ticle&artid=77 says enough, and supports the figure I quoted. Read the coroner reports, and the figures are worse.

"Is the group no longer together? Your site doesnt appear to have been updated lately". In 2003 we decided to wait for the rebreather technology that worked. There were too many deaths happening in other groups doing similar dives. Carrying 6 to 8 cylinders was a pain, and the core members concluded rebreathers were just not up to very deep dives yet. The whole group was heavily involved in feedback on the Deep Life technology as well as with a well known rebreather company who came along from time to time. We all concluded the Deep Life technology was good enough for us to wait, and some of the core divers, including me, put our money in to back it. We saw a lot of rebreather failures using standard rebreathers, including on that Dasher dive: I got a bad CO2 hit, then an hour later was back in. The only other group to dive the Dasher, a few weeks after us, lost one person (on a rebreather, probably due to a CO2 hit, during deco). I am not aware of any dive on it since then. It is a sensitive wreck. Our dive contributed to the latest edition of the HMS Dasher book by John and Noreen Steele, "They were never told". Makes a sober read. ISBN 1 874640 33 5.

Shame you didn´t dive today. In Scotland we get used to the weather, so long as the boat can find you, it is diving weather. Just need an SMB tall enough to stand above the waves.
"regardless of my natural cinicism, I hope you make your rebreather one day. If it does what it says on the tin, I would try one out. When will that be then?"
Please give me a call.
Cheers,
Alex

divetheworld · 24th September 2005, 23:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

This is becoming a one on one debate that could be better handled in the pub. Dealing with your Qs briefly:

The KMA was posted in two forms. Look for the Inspo scrubber with the black delrin top. The pictures on the gallery are not mock ups, they are units that went through testing. See proto II, proto III pics and now proto IV is in prep.

Yeah, OK, perhaps we could see proto III or IV functioning at the next dive show? I am sure that we could arrange some stand space without much problem for a live demonstration.
29th-30th October at the NEC.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Your Q "I am interested in the slide 21 which shows a single hose breathing loop, looks like an AP inflator instead of a mouthpeice. How did that work?"
We normally use conventional two hoses, but did quite a lot with different variants of single hose, including asking someone to try to breathe a unit in pendulum mode, and running two hoses in one. Only the mouthpiece works on that hose in that picture: it is just a pendulum system. We developed a twin hose to one mouthpiece design, and even patented it. In hindsight, very similar indeed to what was done for the Joker in France. One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated. For the later, single hoses were the approach we were taking, but in the last lot of tests, we found a better solution.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

"You dont homebrew, and that shows." Actually I do, but reasonably well resourced and mods of existing kit rather than from scratch.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

"I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it?" It was done by Mark and Sue Reeves. The dive trip/course adverts were removed recently.

"Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you?"
I was the Safety Officer and Deep Safety Diver on that particular expedition. That is why the gallery of the Dasher Expedition shows me in the water, on a Rebreather.

Actually it shows you jumping in, with Buddy Inspiration rebreather with 9% O2, 60% He and a 54% O2 deco mix in 7ltr sidemounts, plus air and pure O2.
Let me recall, 131m to the deck, 170m to the silt.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

"I take it you didnt learn the shoot the bag with you attached trick on that particular dive then. " Was there a long pub visit instead of your dive today?

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Q on Rebreather safety: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/articles.php?action=viewarticle&artid=77 says enough, and supports the figure I quoted. Read the coroner reports, and the figures are worse.

Quote:
you said;
Originally Posted by AD_ward9
A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour.

Not exactly a specific answer.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Shame you didn´t dive today. In Scotland we get used to the weather, so long as the boat can find you, it is diving weather. Just need an SMB tall enough to stand above the waves.

And the zero viz makes it all worthwhile. No we made a wise decision to wait until tomorrow considering the 25mph Northerly wind and 2 1/5m waves. When it comes to safety I dont **** around with egos.

If you need the last word, go right ahead. I think I'm done here.

paulraymaekers · 25th September 2005, 10:39

AD_WARD9: One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated

anything like this????

just from a very early prototype 2 years ago

regards
paul

paulraymaekers · 25th September 2005, 10:53

hello AD_WARD9

IMHO, the most streamlined breather is a home-build one:

http://www.fr.smartgroups.com/pictur...lbumID=5753865

it also exists in a 'travel' version: 20kg empty, with 2*3l carbon on it, dual scrubber (total sorb capacity 3kg), completely manufactured in titanium grade3 and grade4, (not the apeks ofcourse :-), and due to the special backplate configuration, it is 'glued' on your back :-)
the proto's have over 400 dives, up to 112m, on tri and heliox

so, some more respect for the home-builders :-)

regards
paul

24th September 2005, 09:02	#71 (permalink)
montyg Monty Guest Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 242	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) As to the Third World, the only differences I see between the Third World and First World are: 1. In the Third World, the value of life is even closer to zero than in the West, but events in the West show we are catching up on this point quite fast. 2. The difference between rich and poor is greater, because instead of governments maxing the return on the population they govern, it is private individuals/criminals, or private individuals dressed up as governments. (Again, we are catching up on that in the West). My §0.02. Alex The difference from a 3rd world rebreather diver and 3rd world home builder's point of view is that we have to import at great expense in terms of time and money or improvise big time. We have a "culture" of finding simple solutions to complex problems. It's a challenge and we enjoy it.
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24th September 2005, 09:13	#72 (permalink)
montyg Monty Guest Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 242	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) If someone in the Third World has enough resources to develop and use a rebreather, albeit home-build, but not enough to do it properly, they are just accentuating point 1 above. If they want a rebreather and resources are borderline, then why not buy a second hand unit? Some ex-military units are a few hundred bucks in the Third World. A unit developed by the military 20 years ago has, in most cases, less chance of killing someone than a home brew. Linked with the above, is use of a home brew rebreather without any rebreather training. Does someone who makes a home brew out of plumbing bits in the Thirld World spend $1000 on a course on a commercial rebreather before using their own? Where is that flying pig ....? My §0.02. Alex This person in the Third World has a commercial unit, has modified another commerical unit and is building another from scratch. What gives you the idea that we don't have enough resources to do it properly? It just takes more time, money and effort. I agree that I could get an ex-military unit for a few hunderd bucks and I intend to see what it's like some time but the shipping cost is the problem. And it doesn't address your concerns about training. You are also quite right that we do not spend $1000 on a commercial rebreather course, the going rate here is more like $300 excluding gas, pool fees and boat charter costs.
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24th September 2005, 09:59	#73 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,636	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Jan has done a good site and I have visited it a fair few times. My question was "why?" The reason was in the next sentence. There are those that know................ Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Exactly the problem with more than a few of them. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) And the strengths that made them successful and enjoyable to dive. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Come on: Military rebreathers are the most successful commercially, until their makers lose the contract, and very few modern military units are home builds. Of the sports home builds, I would suggest the industry has suffered as a result of their home build origins due to failure modes which would never have been there if they were designed professionally. I disagree, what was successful about the military rebreathers? They were so expensive that no-one could afford to buy them. I'm not going to re-list all their bad points, the users of the unit have done so many times on this board, but suffice to say that you had better have more than academic knowledge to use one and access to lots of spares especially the 'burn up' electronics. How many were sold to non-military? And how many are left as standard? You used the word commercially, so based on units sold. The only successful military rebreathers were used in less that 10m. The most successful rebreathers in the world today are the Drager and the AP. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Something that you have dived 400 hours on, does not prove something is safe for a billion hours: the baseline for a life critical design. The problem is companies have tested kit for hundreds, or even thousands of hours, release it to the market, and suddenly find their product has a 1% Club due to design defects. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Alex, you can try to sell your philosophy and your design until the cows come home, but mines been in the water and fully functions perfectly. And has done for years. Failure rate to date is only due to human error and diver **-ups. No mechanical or electrical component has caused me a problem. All the pictures of my kit show it in salt water attached to a diver. All the components are borne out of necessity and not a room full of brainstormers looking for gimmicks to fit so any 'burger flipper' can dive it. A rebreather is a tool for me, one to get me where I want to go, for the time I want to be there with as little risk as is acceptable. Furthermore I use it every weekend, in the sea. 400 hrs without a failure is good enough for me, and when or if is goes tits up, I'll be ready for it. Anyone else do it differently? By the time anything like you describe gets into the shops, I'll have more than just the one world record for underwater endurance to my name. Maybe you would care to design a replacement for the Kirby 18? I'm sure you can simulate a 1000% better design. Problem is, if it isn’t broke - don’t fix it is a good philosophy too. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) It goes back to the points I raised: good design in life critical systems costs money and until the volumes started flowing, which is only very recently, there was just not enough return on the investment. Almost all rebreather developments were inadequately funded. Now funding is starting to get to the coal face, it is going to be interesting to look back in a decade at what people use today. The next decade is going to see a huge change in eCCRs, and I do not think those changes are going to come from home builds. Cheers, Alex And I disagree there too, I think that the market will dictate those designs, not what you or your designers think is best for us. What will work is what is proven in deep and cave exploration. What is trusted is also what is proven and what is safe is what is as simple as is needed. Time beneath the surface teaches us experience. And speaking of which, thats where I'm going now. Diving on my rebreather. So, enough talking for me. See you all after the weekend. The poll is shaping up nicely, if you read into it properly. No homebuilds do anything new, they do it differently. Re invent the wheel? No, just make it my wheel. __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/** Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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24th September 2005, 11:03	#74 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,011	Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) Maybe you would care to design a replacement for the Kirby 18? I'm sure you can simulate a 1000% better design. Problem is, if it isn’t broke - don’t fix it is a good philosophy too. Thanks. You appear to be agreeing with my point: there is no point reinventing the wheel. On the military units, you need comment from Divex, Carlton, Draeger and others. The volumes and price of some of these units provide margins that make AP pale, especially the latest US initiative/contracts. Trouble is the contract winners do well and the others sweat: it tends to be all or nothing. On testing, my own personal unit has had about half of the features we talk about and has been dived for years in the KMA form. Combined as a commercial unit, you are right, a number of companies are planning this, but it is not available yet. I am sure you will set some more records while we wait. The result of the process you describe has meant that lawyers, insurance men and legislation are stepping in, forcing the issue. This means the market is demanding it. Just see the Vision electronics: put in a form of scrubber indicator, and sales soar. People do want safety and are speaking with their wallets. Stepping back, what are you saying? That something someone has built in a bedroom, has had no real testing, no review, no QA, electronic failure rates of a few thousand hours, is preferable in the market to something that is the same configuration but that has these checks? A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour. Your risk balance is one that you want to set depth records. That camp is quite small: as you know we were in an adjacent camp in the Extreme Dive Team. Most people want to go diving, come back, with absolutely minimum risk. For extreme diving, having things like WOB monitors, real scrubber and CO2 monitors, are useful, and I do not see them in the home build camp. Some of the innovations Divex have made, to simplify diving,also not in the home build camp. The recent work APD have done with different innovations, did start with home build, but with their new test facility it is clear where they believe the future is: moving to professional design. Use of test facilities by rebreather companies has grown many fold in just a few years, again, the industry is moving from home build origins into something more mature. Anyhow, Saturday, a day to go diving... Cheers Alex
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24th September 2005, 13:32	#75 (permalink)
eanxdiver Rather be Diving Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA, SC Posts: 115	Philippe, Where do you get these clear replacements for the CK? Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) I use clear cast acrylic (clone of the original PVC) on my Kiss & I'm happy with it. See here: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle....php?i=743&c=4 or here: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle....php?i=393&c=4 Best Philippe
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24th September 2005, 18:07	#76 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,636	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Thanks. You appear to be agreeing with my point: there is no point reinventing the wheel. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) No problem. but you may have missed the intentions of my comment. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) On the military units, you need comment from Divex, Carlton, Draeger and others. The volumes and price of some of these units provide margins that make AP pale, especially the latest US initiative/contracts. Trouble is the contract winners do well and the others sweat: it tends to be all or nothing. No argument there, but not relevant to our discussion on relative success. Anyway, you might agree that winning or losing a military contract doesnt mean a rebreather is good or bad so maybe a mute point? After all, the MK15/16 rebreathers can hardly be called good anymore, like the CIS they were pioneering but by todays standards you have to have a mission specific use for them or your upto no good. Those heros on here who use them (yes I know who you are) would agree that they are far from everyones cup of tea. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) On testing, my own personal unit has had about half of the features we talk about and has been dived for years in the KMA form. Combined as a commercial unit, you are right, a number of companies are planning this, but it is not available yet. I am sure you will set some more records while we wait. Question- Your pictures relating to KMA form are missing. Could you explain the KMA form? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) The result of the process you describe has meant that lawyers, insurance men and legislation are stepping in, forcing the issue. This means the market is demanding it. Just see the Vision electronics: put in a form of scrubber indicator, and sales soar. People do want safety and are speaking with their wallets. You might want to re-evaluate your market research/opinion. If you think the scrubber monitor is the reason for vision sales you may be surprised to find that it is only a part of the reason. If it was a primary reason then you would see retro-fits to existing units. But that isnt fact, just my interpretation. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Stepping back, what are you saying? That something someone has built in a bedroom, has had no real testing, no review, no QA, electronic failure rates of a few thousand hours, is preferable in the market to something that is the same configuration but that has these checks? . There has not been a homebrew I have made which has the same configuration as one on the market. That is the point of a homebrew. Look at your poll, it tells you this is a main reason for building them. So in part, yes I prefer my homebrew because I made it, I know it, I trust it because of this. When you homebuild, you appreciate this. You dont homebrew, and that shows. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour. Can you be more specific here? I'm trying to interpret your comment. Which homebrew are you talking about that short cut it to the market? the Inspo? Or are you saying homebrews cause fatalities. Please clarify your statement. Be specific. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Your risk balance is one that you want to set depth records. That camp is quite small: as you know we were in an adjacent camp in the Extreme Dive Team. Most people want to go diving, come back, with absolutely minimum risk. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it? Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you? I take it you didnt learn the "shoot the bag with you attached" trick on that particular dive then. Is the group no longer together? Your site doesnt appear to have been updated lately. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) For extreme diving, having things like WOB monitors, real scrubber and CO2 monitors, are useful, and I do not see them in the home build camp. Some of the innovations Divex have made, to simplify diving,also not in the home build camp. The recent work APD have done with different innovations, did start with home build, but with their new test facility it is clear where they believe the future is: moving to professional design. Use of test facilities by rebreather companies has grown many fold in just a few years, again, the industry is moving from home build origins into something more mature. Anyhow, Saturday, a day to go diving... Cheers Alex Did you go diving? Winds are nasty down here, try again tomorrow. regardless of my natural cinicism, I hope you make your rebreather one day. If it does what it says on the tin, I would try one out. When will that be then? __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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24th September 2005, 21:32	#77 (permalink)
AD_ward9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,011	This is becoming a one on one debate that could be better handled in the pub. Dealing with your Qs briefly: The KMA was posted in two forms. Look for the Inspo scrubber with the black delrin top. The pictures on the gallery are not mock ups, they are units that went through testing. See proto II, proto III pics and now proto IV is in prep. Your Q "I am interested in the slide 21 which shows a single hose breathing loop, looks like an AP inflator instead of a mouthpeice. How did that work?" We normally use conventional two hoses, but did quite a lot with different variants of single hose, including asking someone to try to breathe a unit in pendulum mode, and running two hoses in one. Only the mouthpiece works on that hose in that picture: it is just a pendulum system. We developed a twin hose to one mouthpiece design, and even patented it. In hindsight, very similar indeed to what was done for the Joker in France. One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated. For the later, single hoses were the approach we were taking, but in the last lot of tests, we found a better solution. "You dont homebrew, and that shows." Actually I do, but reasonably well resourced and mods of existing kit rather than from scratch. "I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it?" It was done by Mark and Sue Reeves. The dive trip/course adverts were removed recently. "Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you?" I was the Safety Officer and Deep Safety Diver on that particular expedition. That is why the gallery of the Dasher Expedition shows me in the water, on a Rebreather. "I take it you didnt learn the shoot the bag with you attached trick on that particular dive then. " Was there a long pub visit instead of your dive today? Q on Rebreather safety: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/artic...ticle&artid=77 says enough, and supports the figure I quoted. Read the coroner reports, and the figures are worse. "Is the group no longer together? Your site doesnt appear to have been updated lately". In 2003 we decided to wait for the rebreather technology that worked. There were too many deaths happening in other groups doing similar dives. Carrying 6 to 8 cylinders was a pain, and the core members concluded rebreathers were just not up to very deep dives yet. The whole group was heavily involved in feedback on the Deep Life technology as well as with a well known rebreather company who came along from time to time. We all concluded the Deep Life technology was good enough for us to wait, and some of the core divers, including me, put our money in to back it. We saw a lot of rebreather failures using standard rebreathers, including on that Dasher dive: I got a bad CO2 hit, then an hour later was back in. The only other group to dive the Dasher, a few weeks after us, lost one person (on a rebreather, probably due to a CO2 hit, during deco). I am not aware of any dive on it since then. It is a sensitive wreck. Our dive contributed to the latest edition of the HMS Dasher book by John and Noreen Steele, "They were never told". Makes a sober read. ISBN 1 874640 33 5. Shame you didn´t dive today. In Scotland we get used to the weather, so long as the boat can find you, it is diving weather. Just need an SMB tall enough to stand above the waves. "regardless of my natural cinicism, I hope you make your rebreather one day. If it does what it says on the tin, I would try one out. When will that be then?" Please give me a call. Cheers, Alex
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24th September 2005, 23:02	#78 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,636	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) This is becoming a one on one debate that could be better handled in the pub. Dealing with your Qs briefly: The KMA was posted in two forms. Look for the Inspo scrubber with the black delrin top. The pictures on the gallery are not mock ups, they are units that went through testing. See proto II, proto III pics and now proto IV is in prep. Yeah, OK, perhaps we could see proto III or IV functioning at the next dive show? I am sure that we could arrange some stand space without much problem for a live demonstration. 29th-30th October at the NEC. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Your Q "I am interested in the slide 21 which shows a single hose breathing loop, looks like an AP inflator instead of a mouthpeice. How did that work?" We normally use conventional two hoses, but did quite a lot with different variants of single hose, including asking someone to try to breathe a unit in pendulum mode, and running two hoses in one. Only the mouthpiece works on that hose in that picture: it is just a pendulum system. We developed a twin hose to one mouthpiece design, and even patented it. In hindsight, very similar indeed to what was done for the Joker in France. One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated. For the later, single hoses were the approach we were taking, but in the last lot of tests, we found a better solution. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) "You dont homebrew, and that shows." Actually I do, but reasonably well resourced and mods of existing kit rather than from scratch. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) "I saw your site http://www.technicaldivers.com/, that is your site isnt it?" It was done by Mark and Sue Reeves. The dive trip/course adverts were removed recently. "Dasher is a nice wreck, you were a standby diver werent you?" I was the Safety Officer and Deep Safety Diver on that particular expedition. That is why the gallery of the Dasher Expedition shows me in the water, on a Rebreather. Actually it shows you jumping in, with Buddy Inspiration rebreather with 9% O2, 60% He and a 54% O2 deco mix in 7ltr sidemounts, plus air and pure O2. Let me recall, 131m to the deck, 170m to the silt. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) "I take it you didnt learn the shoot the bag with you attached trick on that particular dive then. " Was there a long pub visit instead of your dive today? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Q on Rebreather safety: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/articles.php?action=viewarticle&artid=77 says enough, and supports the figure I quoted. Read the coroner reports, and the figures are worse. Quote: you said; Originally Posted by AD_ward9 A private individual can do what he likes, but when a homebrew short cuts to the market, the result is the death rate we see on CCRs: 900 times that of O.C. SCUBA per hour. Not exactly a specific answer. Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Shame you didn´t dive today. In Scotland we get used to the weather, so long as the boat can find you, it is diving weather. Just need an SMB tall enough to stand above the waves. And the zero viz makes it all worthwhile. No we made a wise decision to wait until tomorrow considering the 25mph Northerly wind and 2 1/5m waves. When it comes to safety I dont ** around with egos. If you need the last word, go right ahead. I think I'm done here. __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/** Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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25th September 2005, 10:39	#79 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	AD_WARD9: One current piece of work is the dual canister Rebreather, but allowing it to be used either as a scrubber with very long duration, or as a RB plus bail out RB fully integrated anything like this???? just from a very early prototype 2 years ago regards paul
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25th September 2005, 10:53	#80 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	hello AD_WARD9 IMHO, the most streamlined breather is a home-build one: http://www.fr.smartgroups.com/pictur...lbumID=5753865 it also exists in a 'travel' version: 20kg empty, with 2*3l carbon on it, dual scrubber (total sorb capacity 3kg), completely manufactured in titanium grade3 and grade4, (not the apeks ofcourse :-), and due to the special backplate configuration, it is 'glued' on your back :-) the proto's have over 400 dives, up to 112m, on tri and heliox so, some more respect for the home-builders :-) regards paul
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