Anyone up to “no good” with design ideas?

Mistral Gagnant · 19th September 2005, 09:04

Hi all, we made our mCCR in PEHD, a plastic harder than PVC or Acrilic, and sheeper than delrin. And we used ORTLEIB Water bags. You can see pictures on our site : www.deepdevildivers.com , or on an other french site : www.recycleur.net ( "Album photos").

Crazyduck · 19th September 2005, 15:44

Hey Guys,

I took the weekend off.

Interesting information…

For an excellent breakdown of numerous rebreathers I defer to Ron at Tmishop for breakdowns. Web- http://www.tmishop.com/

The Classic KISS and Sport version are both covered in detail plus how Alan Studley added a port for his dive computer.

I know that hoses can be purchased at Oxycheq, and Vintage Scuba. Tom Rose did a write up on the modified hoses he did on his website.

Philippe sir, with the cast Acrylic tube did you purchase the material to size (same diameter) or was it custom job?

Thanks, Andrew

(just trying to generate conversation in the Home Building section)

Philippe GERIN · 19th September 2005, 19:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck)

with the cast Acrylic tube did you purchase the material to size (same diameter) or was it custom job?

Good ol' Mc Master catalog: Same diameter as the original. You then have to have the ends machined to make sure it's a perfect circle & match with the Kiss head and scrubber bottom. Cast acrylic tolerences are for the OD as PVC tolerences are for ID.
Best
Philippe

Crazyduck · 19th September 2005, 19:37

Know that is Harlious- I live in that damn catalog...
Hummm time to start flipping pages....
Gracias, dude.

Andrew

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

Good ol' Mc Master catalog: Same diameter as the original. You then have to have the ends machined to make sure it's a perfect circle & match with the Kiss head and scrubber bottom. Cast acrylic tolerences are for the OD as PVC tolerences are for ID.
Best
Philippe

KISSit! · 19th September 2005, 20:43

Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative?

ben

decoweenie · 19th September 2005, 21:10

Someone (in the UK) has claimed that he has done it to his Classic-KISS, but mentioned that it wasn't cost-effective for him to offer it commercially.

Since no one has seen said device AFAIK, I don't know how true it is...

As you are a KISS owner, you could search the KISS Yahoo list archive to read the details. It was a couple of years back.

Philippe GERIN · 19th September 2005, 21:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by KISSit!)

Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative?

ben

If you consider Porex as an hydrophobic membrane, then ... yes I have, so has Phi prior to me. I didn't notice anything good or bad, maybe a little increase in wob? But it's another thingy to stuff in the canister so I settled for the basic, lower tech tampons anyway as it seems simpler. I dump the sorb if I "see"

(clear canister) a liquid phase at the end of the diving day when I tilt the canister even if I don't have the time on the scrubber. Sorb is cheap and I prefer other kinds of cocktail than the caustic.
Best
Philippe

decoweenie · 19th September 2005, 21:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

...Porex... Philippe

ARGGHHH!!!

Philippe, I kept forgetting to send those disks to you. Sorry...

ADDited

Personally, I don't consider Porex as a "true" hydrophobic membrane since in my mind, such a device is used to completely isotaling water from sorb. And the Porex that I used was simply the same disk used in the MK-15-series scrubber.

Yes, it does prevent water from flowing thru, but the application of the membrane disk isn't water-tight (i.e. sealed) so a flooded scrubber will render the sorb completely unusable.

This means gas is also allowed to flow around the disk in some amount, thus would be difficult to gauge the true WOB.

Crazyduck · 19th September 2005, 21:13

Highjacking is Good!

To my understanding (as a novice) the hydrophobic member can drive up the work of breathing depending on the cross section of the material (how big it is) and rate of the gas exchange (flow rate.) People I have talked to mentioned that the material was a type of Gore-Tex that allowed gas molecules to pass but not water. If this is true then you would have to have a way of purging the canister. Otherwise the result would be the water pressure on the Gore-Tex and that would have nasty effect on the WOB if you flooded the canister.

Another point, Gore-Tex has a limited exposure rate to be truly waterproof and the material has to be treated after so long to maintain its properties. For example my North Face Gore-Tex jacket I need to wash it and retreat the material once a year. Not like a do that! But I am sure a similar process would apply to the scrubber.

It has been mentioned in the past that this is the benefit of OTS (over the shoulder) counterlungs. You can put drains into the counterlungs and that would make it easier to remove any water out of the system before getting to the scrubber.

Instead of a hydrophobic membrane- why not make some changes to the system?

Add OTS counterlungs and plumb the mouthpiece to the counterlungs (similar to the Meg, Inspiration, or Prism

out of the back and then into the scrubber head. Just thinking out loud. Then you just need to block the old ports.

You know the guy to ask this of????

The grand master of all KISS units or Mr. Decoweenie to you and me.

Good luck with this.

Andrew

Quote: (Originally Posted by KISSit!)

Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative?

ben

Philippe GERIN · 19th September 2005, 21:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

ARGGHHH!!!

Philippe, I kept forgetting to send those disks to you. Sorry...

Don't worry Phi. In the meantime I got some samples of different thickness to try out from their sales rep in the US. As I wrote above I settled for the tampons as I didn't really like to add an extra layer in the canister.
Best
Philippe

19th September 2005, 09:04	#11 (permalink)
Mistral Gagnant DeepDevilDiver Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: France - Cote d'Azur Posts: 36	Hi all, we made our mCCR in PEHD, a plastic harder than PVC or Acrilic, and sheeper than delrin. And we used ORTLEIB Water bags. You can see pictures on our site : www.deepdevildivers.com , or on an other french site : www.recycleur.net ( "Album photos"). __________________ Devil Dolby Digital A Deep Devil Diver http://www.deepdevildivers.com
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 15:44	#12 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 711	Hey Guys, I took the weekend off. Interesting information… For an excellent breakdown of numerous rebreathers I defer to Ron at Tmishop for breakdowns. Web- http://www.tmishop.com/ The Classic KISS and Sport version are both covered in detail plus how Alan Studley added a port for his dive computer. I know that hoses can be purchased at Oxycheq, and Vintage Scuba. Tom Rose did a write up on the modified hoses he did on his website. Philippe sir, with the cast Acrylic tube did you purchase the material to size (same diameter) or was it custom job? Thanks, Andrew (just trying to generate conversation in the Home Building section)
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 19:22	#13 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 636	Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck) with the cast Acrylic tube did you purchase the material to size (same diameter) or was it custom job? Good ol' Mc Master catalog: Same diameter as the original. You then have to have the ends machined to make sure it's a perfect circle & match with the Kiss head and scrubber bottom. Cast acrylic tolerences are for the OD as PVC tolerences are for ID. Best Philippe
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 19:37	#14 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 711	Know that is Harlious- I live in that damn catalog... Hummm time to start flipping pages.... Gracias, dude. Andrew Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) Good ol' Mc Master catalog: Same diameter as the original. You then have to have the ends machined to make sure it's a perfect circle & match with the Kiss head and scrubber bottom. Cast acrylic tolerences are for the OD as PVC tolerences are for ID. Best Philippe
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 20:43	#15 (permalink)
KISSit! New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sea-Town Posts: 29	Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative? ben
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 21:10	#16 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Someone (in the UK) has claimed that he has done it to his Classic-KISS, but mentioned that it wasn't cost-effective for him to offer it commercially. Since no one has seen said device AFAIK, I don't know how true it is... As you are a KISS owner, you could search the KISS Yahoo list archive to read the details. It was a couple of years back. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 21:10	#17 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 636	Quote: (Originally Posted by KISSit!) Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative? ben If you consider Porex as an hydrophobic membrane, then ... yes I have, so has Phi prior to me. I didn't notice anything good or bad, maybe a little increase in wob? But it's another thingy to stuff in the canister so I settled for the basic, lower tech tampons anyway as it seems simpler. I dump the sorb if I "see" (clear canister) a liquid phase at the end of the diving day when I tilt the canister even if I don't have the time on the scrubber. Sorb is cheap and I prefer other kinds of cocktail than the caustic. Best Philippe
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 21:13	#18 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) ...Porex... Philippe ARGGHHH!!! Philippe, I kept forgetting to send those disks to you. Sorry... ADDited Personally, I don't consider Porex as a "true" hydrophobic membrane since in my mind, such a device is used to completely isotaling water from sorb. And the Porex that I used was simply the same disk used in the MK-15-series scrubber. Yes, it does prevent water from flowing thru, but the application of the membrane disk isn't water-tight (i.e. sealed) so a flooded scrubber will render the sorb completely unusable. This means gas is also allowed to flow around the disk in some amount, thus would be difficult to gauge the true WOB. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 21:13	#19 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 711	Highjacking is Good! To my understanding (as a novice) the hydrophobic member can drive up the work of breathing depending on the cross section of the material (how big it is) and rate of the gas exchange (flow rate.) People I have talked to mentioned that the material was a type of Gore-Tex that allowed gas molecules to pass but not water. If this is true then you would have to have a way of purging the canister. Otherwise the result would be the water pressure on the Gore-Tex and that would have nasty effect on the WOB if you flooded the canister. Another point, Gore-Tex has a limited exposure rate to be truly waterproof and the material has to be treated after so long to maintain its properties. For example my North Face Gore-Tex jacket I need to wash it and retreat the material once a year. Not like a do that! But I am sure a similar process would apply to the scrubber. It has been mentioned in the past that this is the benefit of OTS (over the shoulder) counterlungs. You can put drains into the counterlungs and that would make it easier to remove any water out of the system before getting to the scrubber. Instead of a hydrophobic membrane- why not make some changes to the system? Add OTS counterlungs and plumb the mouthpiece to the counterlungs (similar to the Meg, Inspiration, or Prism out of the back and then into the scrubber head. Just thinking out loud. Then you just need to block the old ports. You know the guy to ask this of???? The grand master of all KISS units or Mr. Decoweenie to you and me. Good luck with this. Andrew Quote: (Originally Posted by KISSit!) Not one to thread jack or anything, but I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to incorporate a hydrophobic membrane into an existing canister. say a KISS for example. Is it do-able or would things like elevated WOB be preventative? ben
(Offline)

19th September 2005, 21:17	#20 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 636	Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) ARGGHHH!!! Philippe, I kept forgetting to send those disks to you. Sorry... Don't worry Phi. In the meantime I got some samples of different thickness to try out from their sales rep in the US. As I wrote above I settled for the tampons as I didn't really like to add an extra layer in the canister. Best Philippe
(Offline)

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