Snog Valve Wars

cstmwrks · 7th October 2007, 03:53

What with the approach of winter it would be interesting to see what kind of crafty single gas Snog valve designs could be developed. It has been on my to do list for some time. I'll see what kind of snog I can come up with for a pendulum 02 rebreather.

jaap · 7th October 2007, 13:38

Hi

This could turn highly interesting...

Do you have any experience of making mouthpieces?

If a high quality mouthpiece could be made with an extra addition point the thing would be very versatile as an add on. I know that at least one of the Rebreather/OC gear manufacturers sometimes use special mouthpieces mounted on their gear during testing. The purpose there is to have a gas sampling port during the testing. Unfortunately they don't seem to be just the thing I'm loking for.

On a pendulum I guess it would be pretty simple to have the SNOG-stick come straight into a custom valve body. But for me at least that would be less interesting.

What I'm after with a simple single gas "SNOG" would be to get a very compact alternative hands free way of adding diluent. Say like when you don't feel like using an ADV or have it turned off.

cool_hardware52 · 7th October 2007, 16:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap)

Hi

This could turn highly interesting...

Do you have any experience of making mouthpieces?

If a high quality mouthpiece could be made with an extra addition point the thing would be very versatile as an add on. I know that at least one of the Rebreather/OC gear manufacturers sometimes use special mouthpieces mounted on their gear during testing. The purpose there is to have a gas sampling port during the testing. Unfortunately they don't seem to be just the thing I'm loking for.

On a pendulum I guess it would be pretty simple to have the SNOG-stick come straight into a custom valve body. But for me at least that would be less interesting.

What I'm after with a simple single gas "SNOG" would be to get a very compact alternative hands free way of adding diluent. Say like when you don't feel like using an ADV or have it turned off.

I'm a mold maker, design and manufacture. A Mouthpiece is a considerable challenge, and the addition of another port on thside makes it more so. (requires another side actuated slide)

Molds for silicone require very close tolerances as it is a thermosetting material, and may require several minutes to cross link. If the mold is not very close fitting the material will flash badly.

Production silicone molding typically uses "liquid silicone". This greatly improves productivity beyond what is achievable using transfer or compression molding, but the initial investment is huge.

The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news.

Tobin

jaap · 7th October 2007, 17:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

I'm a mold maker, design and manufacture. A Mouthpiece is a considerable challenge, and the addition of another port on thside makes it more so. (requires another side actuated slide)

Molds for silicone require very close tolerances as it is a thermosetting material, and may require several minutes to cross link. If the mold is not very close fitting the material will flash badly.

Production silicone molding typically uses "liquid silicone". This greatly improves productivity beyond what is achievable using transfer or compression molding, but the initial investment is huge.

The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news.

Tobin

Thanks for the input!

I feared it would be rather tricky to make a small batch of exotic mouthpieces.

So how about plan B? ;-)

Finding a more "regular" mouthpiece but one with fairly thick material on the side. The "SNOG" insert could have a smaller diameter male threaded end and go in by a hole in the mouthpiece. The thing would then be held in place by a low profile but fairly large nut on the inside. Perhaps even glued/sealed in place if a proper compatible glue could be found (there should be some medical use glues for this kind of stuff?).

Of course if a custom DSV was made it would probably not be that hard to make the mouthpiece part a little bit longer and have the SNOG insert there.

cstmwrks · 7th October 2007, 18:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap)

Thanks for the input!

I feared it would be rather tricky to make a small batch of exotic mouthpieces.

So how about plan B? ;-)

Well this is the part that will make things interesting. As was pointed out, special custom molded rubber parts are no easy task. But lets not set any limitations.. One knee jerk reaction ( not without issues of its own, but that is not the point ) is a micro switch in the mouthpiece. Nothing more than two wires running to a solinoide to fire dil add or 02 add. If your already diving with meters then you have to have power.. Soooo..

For my 02 rig this is not an option. More later as I ponder this.
Bill

cstmwrks · 7th October 2007, 18:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news.

Tobin

Hi Tobin,
What do you know of the many castable silicones and urethanes out there? FreemanSupply.com - Mold Making, Casting Resin, & Foundry Materials as an example.

Bill

cool_hardware52 · 7th October 2007, 19:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by cstmwrks)

Hi Tobin,
What do you know of the many castable silicones and urethanes out there? FreemanSupply.com - Mold Making, Casting Resin, & Foundry Materials as an example.

Bill

Intricate shapes are difficult, and air bubbles are always a problem, but low pressure molds with pour ables could be one solution.

Tobin

cstmwrks · 7th October 2007, 19:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

Intricate shapes are difficult, and air bubbles are always a problem, but low pressure molds with pour ables could be one solution.

Tobin

Bubbles are an issue but a vacuum pot is a pretty low budget solution for that. I meant more on the lines of durabilty ( some of these castables will absorb water and get weaker with age ) and tensile strength. Do they tend to be a pretty close match?

Bill

cool_hardware52 · 7th October 2007, 19:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by cstmwrks)

Bubbles are an issue but a vacuum pot is a pretty low budget solution for that. I meant more on the lines of durabilty ( some of these castables will absorb water and get weaker with age ) and tensile strength. Do they tend to be a pretty close match?

Bill

Bill, my area of expertise is with genuine thermoplastics, and thermosets. The two part castables I've every played with were not intended for long term use, i.e. temporary reproduction, or silicone molds.

I can't comment on the long term physical properties. Some of the two part urethanes are pretty damn tough, but I'm not sure I want a "tough" mouthpiece.

Another good source for this type of thing is Silpak, Inc

Tobin

jaap · 7th October 2007, 22:00

Haha things are moving.

Micro switch...hmm innovative! But I'm not to happy about more electronics (I don't feel like using solenoids for diving).

About the molding business. The UW talking mouthpiece I used to make my "SNOG"-prototype from was actually a very odd thing. It has a metal frame inside the rubber. Infact I had to use some pliers to bend the frame a bit so that it would not interfere with the stick. The frame is perhaps there to conduct more sound to the talking membrane? Or as some way of simplifying the making of the mouthpiece?

Another molding question, how much of a deal is the selection/molding procedure for materials to be used inside the loop/mouth? I would guess that a careless selection of materials/procedure could turn out to be bad for your (long/short term) health?

Hmm...

.....the local gadget store (Teknikmagasinet) sells a molding kit that is supposed to be capable of recreating fine details such as pumped up blood vessels...Yiedling a flexible and durable object suited for internal use...

Sounds like there is a slim chance it could perhaps be used to make a custom mouthpiece (perhaps with a reinforcing frame inside)...

The molding material can even be had in a glow in the dark version...

LOL

7th October 2007, 03:53	#1 (permalink)
cstmwrks The old ways still work. Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Boise Idaho Posts: 238	Snog Valve Wars What with the approach of winter it would be interesting to see what kind of crafty single gas Snog valve designs could be developed. It has been on my to do list for some time. I'll see what kind of snog I can come up with for a pendulum 02 rebreather. __________________ Why you ask... well it's not like I have anything better to do.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 13:38	#2 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 473	Re: Snog Valve Wars Hi This could turn highly interesting... Do you have any experience of making mouthpieces? If a high quality mouthpiece could be made with an extra addition point the thing would be very versatile as an add on. I know that at least one of the Rebreather/OC gear manufacturers sometimes use special mouthpieces mounted on their gear during testing. The purpose there is to have a gas sampling port during the testing. Unfortunately they don't seem to be just the thing I'm loking for. On a pendulum I guess it would be pretty simple to have the SNOG-stick come straight into a custom valve body. But for me at least that would be less interesting. What I'm after with a simple single gas "SNOG" would be to get a very compact alternative hands free way of adding diluent. Say like when you don't feel like using an ADV or have it turned off. __________________ My initials: JAAP
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 16:47	#3 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) Hi This could turn highly interesting... Do you have any experience of making mouthpieces? If a high quality mouthpiece could be made with an extra addition point the thing would be very versatile as an add on. I know that at least one of the Rebreather/OC gear manufacturers sometimes use special mouthpieces mounted on their gear during testing. The purpose there is to have a gas sampling port during the testing. Unfortunately they don't seem to be just the thing I'm loking for. On a pendulum I guess it would be pretty simple to have the SNOG-stick come straight into a custom valve body. But for me at least that would be less interesting. What I'm after with a simple single gas "SNOG" would be to get a very compact alternative hands free way of adding diluent. Say like when you don't feel like using an ADV or have it turned off. I'm a mold maker, design and manufacture. A Mouthpiece is a considerable challenge, and the addition of another port on thside makes it more so. (requires another side actuated slide) Molds for silicone require very close tolerances as it is a thermosetting material, and may require several minutes to cross link. If the mold is not very close fitting the material will flash badly. Production silicone molding typically uses "liquid silicone". This greatly improves productivity beyond what is achievable using transfer or compression molding, but the initial investment is huge. The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news. Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
(Online)

7th October 2007, 17:10	#4 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 473	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) I'm a mold maker, design and manufacture. A Mouthpiece is a considerable challenge, and the addition of another port on thside makes it more so. (requires another side actuated slide) Molds for silicone require very close tolerances as it is a thermosetting material, and may require several minutes to cross link. If the mold is not very close fitting the material will flash badly. Production silicone molding typically uses "liquid silicone". This greatly improves productivity beyond what is achievable using transfer or compression molding, but the initial investment is huge. The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news. Tobin Thanks for the input! I feared it would be rather tricky to make a small batch of exotic mouthpieces. So how about plan B? ;-) Finding a more "regular" mouthpiece but one with fairly thick material on the side. The "SNOG" insert could have a smaller diameter male threaded end and go in by a hole in the mouthpiece. The thing would then be held in place by a low profile but fairly large nut on the inside. Perhaps even glued/sealed in place if a proper compatible glue could be found (there should be some medical use glues for this kind of stuff?). Of course if a custom DSV was made it would probably not be that hard to make the mouthpiece part a little bit longer and have the SNOG insert there. __________________ My initials: JAAP Last edited by jaap : 7th October 2007 at 17:13.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 18:20	#5 (permalink)
cstmwrks The old ways still work. Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Boise Idaho Posts: 238	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) Thanks for the input! I feared it would be rather tricky to make a small batch of exotic mouthpieces. So how about plan B? ;-) Well this is the part that will make things interesting. As was pointed out, special custom molded rubber parts are no easy task. But lets not set any limitations.. One knee jerk reaction ( not without issues of its own, but that is not the point ) is a micro switch in the mouthpiece. Nothing more than two wires running to a solinoide to fire dil add or 02 add. If your already diving with meters then you have to have power.. Soooo.. For my 02 rig this is not an option. More later as I ponder this. Bill __________________ Why you ask... well it's not like I have anything better to do.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 18:59	#6 (permalink)
cstmwrks The old ways still work. Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Boise Idaho Posts: 238	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) The bottom line is if you can't find what you need now, it's unlikely somebody will make up a few out in the garage. Sorry for the bad news. Tobin Hi Tobin, What do you know of the many castable silicones and urethanes out there? FreemanSupply.com - Mold Making, Casting Resin, & Foundry Materials as an example. Bill __________________ Why you ask... well it's not like I have anything better to do.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 19:01	#7 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by cstmwrks) Hi Tobin, What do you know of the many castable silicones and urethanes out there? FreemanSupply.com - Mold Making, Casting Resin, & Foundry Materials as an example. Bill Intricate shapes are difficult, and air bubbles are always a problem, but low pressure molds with pour ables could be one solution. Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
(Online)

7th October 2007, 19:08	#8 (permalink)
cstmwrks The old ways still work. Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Boise Idaho Posts: 238	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) Intricate shapes are difficult, and air bubbles are always a problem, but low pressure molds with pour ables could be one solution. Tobin Bubbles are an issue but a vacuum pot is a pretty low budget solution for that. I meant more on the lines of durabilty ( some of these castables will absorb water and get weaker with age ) and tensile strength. Do they tend to be a pretty close match? Bill __________________ Why you ask... well it's not like I have anything better to do.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 19:17	#9 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Snog Valve Wars Quote: (Originally Posted by cstmwrks) Bubbles are an issue but a vacuum pot is a pretty low budget solution for that. I meant more on the lines of durabilty ( some of these castables will absorb water and get weaker with age ) and tensile strength. Do they tend to be a pretty close match? Bill Bill, my area of expertise is with genuine thermoplastics, and thermosets. The two part castables I've every played with were not intended for long term use, i.e. temporary reproduction, or silicone molds. I can't comment on the long term physical properties. Some of the two part urethanes are pretty damn tough, but I'm not sure I want a "tough" mouthpiece. Another good source for this type of thing is Silpak, Inc Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
(Online)

7th October 2007, 22:00	#10 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 473	Re: Snog Valve Wars Haha things are moving. Micro switch...hmm innovative! But I'm not to happy about more electronics (I don't feel like using solenoids for diving). About the molding business. The UW talking mouthpiece I used to make my "SNOG"-prototype from was actually a very odd thing. It has a metal frame inside the rubber. Infact I had to use some pliers to bend the frame a bit so that it would not interfere with the stick. The frame is perhaps there to conduct more sound to the talking membrane? Or as some way of simplifying the making of the mouthpiece? Another molding question, how much of a deal is the selection/molding procedure for materials to be used inside the loop/mouth? I would guess that a careless selection of materials/procedure could turn out to be bad for your (long/short term) health? Hmm... .....the local gadget store (Teknikmagasinet) sells a molding kit that is supposed to be capable of recreating fine details such as pumped up blood vessels...Yiedling a flexible and durable object suited for internal use... Sounds like there is a slim chance it could perhaps be used to make a custom mouthpiece (perhaps with a reinforcing frame inside)... The molding material can even be had in a glow in the dark version... LOL __________________ My initials: JAAP
(Offline)

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