Need Math Lesson

Mossyback · 4th July 2007, 23:07

This is bloody awful!!!

My apologies to both Ray and Dave.

I called the LDS today to tell them that I'd take the 72 cf steel cylinders off their hands as they didn't want them. I was told that they were "condemned" and that they'd been taken to the local scrap yard and cut up!!!!

So ... I asked them to save any more that get dropped off and that I'd gladly pick them up. They currently have one cylinder that they're saving for me but I've been informed that it is also "condemned".

So what would you folks like me to do? I won't know what condition the inside of the tanks are. I could have them do a visual inspection on them and if all they need is tumbling then I could take them. Or I could just grab them and hope for the best. Let me know what you want.

This "condemned" label is kind of suspicious. I sent my Desco O2 tank in and it came back with the above label. Turns out that it was condemned because it didn't appear on the list of accepted cylinders in Canada. It's stamped DESCO right on the side.

Hank

**Dave Sutton** · 5th July 2007, 00:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mossyback)

This is bloody awful!!!

My apologies to both Ray and Dave.

I called the LDS today to tell them that I'd take the 72 cf steel cylinders off their hands as they didn't want them. I was told that they were "condemned" and that they'd been taken to the local scrap yard and cut up!!!!

So ... I asked them to save any more that get dropped off and that I'd gladly pick them up. They currently have one cylinder that they're saving for me but I've been informed that it is also "condemned".

So what would you folks like me to do? I won't know what condition the inside of the tanks are. I could have them do a visual inspection on them and if all they need is tumbling then I could take them. Or I could just grab them and hope for the best. Let me know what you want.

This "condemned" label is kind of suspicious. I sent my Desco O2 tank in and it came back with the above label. Turns out that it was condemned because it didn't appear on the list of accepted cylinders in Canada. It's stamped DESCO right on the side.

Hank

As long as a steel cylinder does not have frank corrosion on the inside, it's going to be just fine....

Even flash-rust is OK. We're just not too keen on ones that have been filled with salt water.

With that said... here's a war story: One day long ago I was filling bottles at the shop in our old water tank. I saw bubbles... no big deal, usually it was an O-Ring, or maybe the bleeder not tight. THIS time was different... the bubbles were coming from the SIDE of the cylinder (!!). And it was at 1800 PSI to boot. Needless to say we empted it most quickly, and upon VIP it was seen to have REALLY bad rust, even with a 6 month old VIP. Salt water intrusion stuff. There was a HOLE in the side of the cylinder... and yet it simply leaked out, nothing more extreme.

Similar story: The large HP flasks on the U-853 are all just gently rusted thru... one day they rusted enough to leak out the air, but do not explode when they get thin.

Bottom line: It takes a lot to make a steel bottle unusable.

Dave

Mossyback · 5th July 2007, 01:34

O.K., Dave,

I'll start rounding up what I can and will figure out how to get them south of the border later.

Hank

Yankee Rebel · 5th July 2007, 01:59

hi Hank!

i tend to agree with Dave on this one. hes got the experience there, i personally have never seen a steel bottle "pass gas" but if the rust is too bad theyll fail during hydro. otherwise, theyll be safe to use. Dave knows what hes talking about, so im inclined to trust his judgement!

about the only problems i ever had with steel tanks was some old 72's with liners in them a buddy in highschool inherited from a dead uncle (passed in his sleep due to CO buildup not diving relate)... hydro company made us tumble the liners out before they would do the test on them. tumbled them for days with pea gravel on a homebuilt tumbler to get all that out. the upside his tanks were nice and pretty inside. inidently they passed without problem. the shop tried to get pissy about the coating on the outside as well, but we convinced them that if the insides tumbled good.. then the outside wouldnt matter.. wed accept responsibility. personally i blame lawyers!

tumbling will actually remove quite a bit if it needs to, and generally even nasty looking rust in a steel cylinder will look good again after a good tumble.

maybe US and Canadian divers and shops do things different?

as long as they didnt drill the cylinders, or stamp them CONDEMMED i figure that itd be worth taking a shot on. i dont have a compressor anymore so im dependant on the shops for fills, wich makes me a slave to hydro and VIP like everyone else... yay!

i dont know if anyone has tried it yet, but if you want. send that DESCO bottle to me and ill take it into the hydro shop myself when i pick up my bailout bottles that are being done now. shipping might suck though, but if you want, ill eat the hydro cost to help out. let me know. if anyone else has offered, i apoligize. not trying to step on anyones toes. you WILL have to O2 clean it again on your end and service your own valve.

my vote is send Dave all the cylinders he will take, and if theres any surplus, ill pick some up then from either of you. im not afriad to take a chance on them.

Ray/Yankee Rebel

carcharodon1957 · 5th July 2007, 07:56

Hello MOSSYBACK,

If you choose single scrubber*, your able to use couple of 2 *2l or 2 * 2.5l!
So that gives quite flexibility for your dive!
Knobs are out of the case and protected by simples alu "L" feet screwed from the back side of the box!
That 's make the IDA stand by straight and stable!
I'll send you pictures if it helps to give anotehr idea of.

* against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives!

I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco!
But its my own opinion

brgds
Bernard

Mossyback · 5th July 2007, 13:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by carcharodon1957)

Hello MOSSYBACK,

If you choose single scrubber*, your able to use couple of 2 *2l or 2 * 2.5l!
So that gives quite flexibility for your dive!
Knobs are out of the case and protected by simples alu "L" feet screwed from the back side of the box!
That 's make the IDA stand by straight and stable!
I'll send you pictures if it helps to give anotehr idea of.

* against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives!

I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco!
But its my own opinion

brgds
Bernard

Thanks for the information, Bernard. I'd really appreciate pictures. I'm a visual kind of person.

Hank

**Dave Sutton** · 5th July 2007, 14:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by carcharodon1957)

* against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives!

I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco!
But its my own opinion

brgds
Bernard

For another thread, but one scrubber gives plenty of *duration* but under high workloads in deeper water (30+M), it can break thru and offer you a nice hypercapnia demonstration. 1 v/s 2 scrubbers decision is *depth based* not *duration based*.

Dave

Corallaro · 5th July 2007, 14:59

Hi Guys

the HARD TEST with my IDA-71!!!
about this thread only a "positive"

experience.

Saturday 30 june 2007

I make a dive in a unexpected current, with a buddy in O.C. at depth of 33 metres.
With boat we fail the point, and my buddy, to find objective uses all his 160 metres reel ...

The time of a fast watch and a long run back, to the anchor..
my buddy had cosumed the main part of his air and had little decompression...

To complete the scene i have my oldest little fin...

At yesterday i had pains to muscles of the legs but, in immersion, none tracks of hipercapnia,

I always use the two scrubbers configuration.

More sodalime to reuse more times than less sodalime to use one time..

so:

lesson learned I: don't dive under 15metres with a buddy with o.c. even if your buddy is your reb Guru

lesson learned II: even if you broken your drysuit, when you think to have a dive around 33 metres with or without a buddy in O.C. don't use your old little fins even if they are the only that you can use without drysuit shoes ....

lesson learned III: if you don't learn the previous lesson...use IDA-71 only with two scrubbers, this can save you!!

Giovanni

PS

Hi Bernard, nice to read you

Hi Dave, saluti dall'Italia

carcharodon1957 · 6th July 2007, 10:03

hello Giovanni and Dave!
You are gurus both and don't want to discuss you way of security about scrubber.

Only few points about me!

Like you Dave, the time you spent in the air, I did it for my job under water as combat diver during 22 years!

it will not give me keys of right, but I don't have to recreate the wheel, I just apply laws and securities way that I learnt during my job!

As combat diver, I made about 4800 dives include about 3400 in ccr!

I know and feel my metabolism but not yours!
If I say that a single scrubber of 2kg sofmoline is enough, its just my decision based on my own experience!

Most of time when somebody has a hypercapnia, it comes from water in te loop , too old sofmo or inadapted efforts during the dive, of course!
high co2 production gives cortex order to increase breathing frequency (but you know that, guys!)

I don't know as instructors, if you learn to your students how to control their breathing work, just because in that case and only in this one, they don't have to follow cortex order with a ccr!We do that with ours, just prevent increase of breathing work!

In that case the only hypercapnia what should arrive (exept water in loop)come from sofmoline saturation in time and should not by hard underwater work!

With IDA71 single scrubber, I made a few dives below 50m (max 80) wih single scrubber (believe me when I tell you that I know what efforts in dive are) without any problem, and far from any limit!

This is just my way that I wanted to explain, and also to justify my choices made on my own experience, based on many training of sofmoline/dives since 23 years

best regards

bernard

Corallaro · 6th July 2007, 10:57

Hi Bernard....

I'm not a reb Guru...i'm starting now to know them....
Just for this i prefer, since they are available, use two scrubbers.

In the experience that i have described up, the workload was very very high for my body..i am a 42 years old and don't make a particular sport

...
I had pains to muscles of the legs

.....
And i haven't any trace of hipercapnia even if for the effort my breathing was accelerated (from O.C. i use to control ever my breathing) ..

Most divers as you, uses right the single scrubber configurations.
In my opinion the dual scrubber configuration is a precaution, since they are available, for unexpected situations as I have described up...

In normal situations, as your and others experience, the single scrubber seems to be OK...

And the efficiency of a scrubber depends also from his design, and design of the loop, not only from the quantity of soda-lime.
The Buddy Inspiration also use +- 2kg of soda lime but have two counterlungs and a particular design to slow down the speed of gas...
So, we are, with ours modify, the real-time testers of IDA-71 MCCR..

and that make very important to share ours experiences/opinions

This is only my opinion......

Best regards

Giovanni

4th July 2007, 23:07	#21 (permalink)
Mossyback Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Southern Ontario, Canada Posts: 109	Re: Need Math Lesson This is bloody awful!!! My apologies to both Ray and Dave. I called the LDS today to tell them that I'd take the 72 cf steel cylinders off their hands as they didn't want them. I was told that they were "condemned" and that they'd been taken to the local scrap yard and cut up!!!! So ... I asked them to save any more that get dropped off and that I'd gladly pick them up. They currently have one cylinder that they're saving for me but I've been informed that it is also "condemned". So what would you folks like me to do? I won't know what condition the inside of the tanks are. I could have them do a visual inspection on them and if all they need is tumbling then I could take them. Or I could just grab them and hope for the best. Let me know what you want. This "condemned" label is kind of suspicious. I sent my Desco O2 tank in and it came back with the above label. Turns out that it was condemned because it didn't appear on the list of accepted cylinders in Canada. It's stamped DESCO right on the side. Hank __________________ "Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are."
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 00:20	#22 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Need Math Lesson Quote: (Originally Posted by Mossyback) This is bloody awful!!! My apologies to both Ray and Dave. I called the LDS today to tell them that I'd take the 72 cf steel cylinders off their hands as they didn't want them. I was told that they were "condemned" and that they'd been taken to the local scrap yard and cut up!!!! So ... I asked them to save any more that get dropped off and that I'd gladly pick them up. They currently have one cylinder that they're saving for me but I've been informed that it is also "condemned". So what would you folks like me to do? I won't know what condition the inside of the tanks are. I could have them do a visual inspection on them and if all they need is tumbling then I could take them. Or I could just grab them and hope for the best. Let me know what you want. This "condemned" label is kind of suspicious. I sent my Desco O2 tank in and it came back with the above label. Turns out that it was condemned because it didn't appear on the list of accepted cylinders in Canada. It's stamped DESCO right on the side. Hank As long as a steel cylinder does not have frank corrosion on the inside, it's going to be just fine.... Even flash-rust is OK. We're just not too keen on ones that have been filled with salt water. With that said... here's a war story: One day long ago I was filling bottles at the shop in our old water tank. I saw bubbles... no big deal, usually it was an O-Ring, or maybe the bleeder not tight. THIS time was different... the bubbles were coming from the SIDE of the cylinder (!!). And it was at 1800 PSI to boot. Needless to say we empted it most quickly, and upon VIP it was seen to have REALLY bad rust, even with a 6 month old VIP. Salt water intrusion stuff. There was a HOLE in the side of the cylinder... and yet it simply leaked out, nothing more extreme. Similar story: The large HP flasks on the U-853 are all just gently rusted thru... one day they rusted enough to leak out the air, but do not explode when they get thin. Bottom line: It takes a lot to make a steel bottle unusable. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 01:34	#23 (permalink)
Mossyback Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Southern Ontario, Canada Posts: 109	Re: Need Math Lesson O.K., Dave, I'll start rounding up what I can and will figure out how to get them south of the border later. Hank __________________ "Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are."
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 01:59	#24 (permalink)
Yankee Rebel Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: California Posts: 147	Re: Need Math Lesson hi Hank! i tend to agree with Dave on this one. hes got the experience there, i personally have never seen a steel bottle "pass gas" but if the rust is too bad theyll fail during hydro. otherwise, theyll be safe to use. Dave knows what hes talking about, so im inclined to trust his judgement! about the only problems i ever had with steel tanks was some old 72's with liners in them a buddy in highschool inherited from a dead uncle (passed in his sleep due to CO buildup not diving relate)... hydro company made us tumble the liners out before they would do the test on them. tumbled them for days with pea gravel on a homebuilt tumbler to get all that out. the upside his tanks were nice and pretty inside. inidently they passed without problem. the shop tried to get pissy about the coating on the outside as well, but we convinced them that if the insides tumbled good.. then the outside wouldnt matter.. wed accept responsibility. personally i blame lawyers! tumbling will actually remove quite a bit if it needs to, and generally even nasty looking rust in a steel cylinder will look good again after a good tumble. maybe US and Canadian divers and shops do things different? as long as they didnt drill the cylinders, or stamp them CONDEMMED i figure that itd be worth taking a shot on. i dont have a compressor anymore so im dependant on the shops for fills, wich makes me a slave to hydro and VIP like everyone else... yay! i dont know if anyone has tried it yet, but if you want. send that DESCO bottle to me and ill take it into the hydro shop myself when i pick up my bailout bottles that are being done now. shipping might suck though, but if you want, ill eat the hydro cost to help out. let me know. if anyone else has offered, i apoligize. not trying to step on anyones toes. you WILL have to O2 clean it again on your end and service your own valve. my vote is send Dave all the cylinders he will take, and if theres any surplus, ill pick some up then from either of you. im not afriad to take a chance on them. Ray/Yankee Rebel
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 07:56	#25 (permalink)
carcharodon1957 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: switzerland Posts: 106	Re: Need Math Lesson Hello MOSSYBACK, If you choose single scrubber, your able to use couple of 2 2l or 2 * 2.5l! So that gives quite flexibility for your dive! Knobs are out of the case and protected by simples alu "L" feet screwed from the back side of the box! That 's make the IDA stand by straight and stable! I'll send you pictures if it helps to give anotehr idea of. * against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives! I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco! But its my own opinion brgds Bernard
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 13:23	#26 (permalink)
Mossyback Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Southern Ontario, Canada Posts: 109	Re: Need Math Lesson Quote: (Originally Posted by carcharodon1957) Hello MOSSYBACK, If you choose single scrubber, your able to use couple of 2 2l or 2 * 2.5l! So that gives quite flexibility for your dive! Knobs are out of the case and protected by simples alu "L" feet screwed from the back side of the box! That 's make the IDA stand by straight and stable! I'll send you pictures if it helps to give anotehr idea of. * against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives! I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco! But its my own opinion brgds Bernard Thanks for the information, Bernard. I'd really appreciate pictures. I'm a visual kind of person. Hank __________________ "Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are."
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 14:30	#27 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Need Math Lesson Quote: (Originally Posted by carcharodon1957) * against quite lot of ida users on that site, I use a single scrubber, and gives me approx 3 hours range, enough for most of dives! I dont know if theres a lot of IDA71 divers stay more than 3 hours under water, including deco! But its my own opinion brgds Bernard For another thread, but one scrubber gives plenty of duration but under high workloads in deeper water (30+M), it can break thru and offer you a nice hypercapnia demonstration. 1 v/s 2 scrubbers decision is depth based not duration based. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

5th July 2007, 14:59	#28 (permalink)
Corallaro IDA-71,IDA-76,NaubosAR90 Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Italia - Sicilia Posts: 248	Re: Need Math Lesson Hi Guys the HARD TEST with my IDA-71!!! about this thread only a "positive" experience. Saturday 30 june 2007 I make a dive in a unexpected current, with a buddy in O.C. at depth of 33 metres. With boat we fail the point, and my buddy, to find objective uses all his 160 metres reel ... The time of a fast watch and a long run back, to the anchor.. my buddy had cosumed the main part of his air and had little decompression... To complete the scene i have my oldest little fin... At yesterday i had pains to muscles of the legs but, in immersion, none tracks of hipercapnia, I always use the two scrubbers configuration. More sodalime to reuse more times than less sodalime to use one time.. so: lesson learned I: don't dive under 15metres with a buddy with o.c. even if your buddy is your reb Guru lesson learned II: even if you broken your drysuit, when you think to have a dive around 33 metres with or without a buddy in O.C. don't use your old little fins even if they are the only that you can use without drysuit shoes .... lesson learned III: if you don't learn the previous lesson...use IDA-71 only with two scrubbers, this can save you!! Giovanni PS Hi Bernard, nice to read you Hi Dave, saluti dall'Italia
(Offline)

6th July 2007, 10:03	#29 (permalink)
carcharodon1957 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: switzerland Posts: 106	Re: Need Math Lesson hello Giovanni and Dave! You are gurus both and don't want to discuss you way of security about scrubber. Only few points about me! Like you Dave, the time you spent in the air, I did it for my job under water as combat diver during 22 years! it will not give me keys of right, but I don't have to recreate the wheel, I just apply laws and securities way that I learnt during my job! As combat diver, I made about 4800 dives include about 3400 in ccr! I know and feel my metabolism but not yours! If I say that a single scrubber of 2kg sofmoline is enough, its just my decision based on my own experience! Most of time when somebody has a hypercapnia, it comes from water in te loop , too old sofmo or inadapted efforts during the dive, of course! high co2 production gives cortex order to increase breathing frequency (but you know that, guys!) I don't know as instructors, if you learn to your students how to control their breathing work, just because in that case and only in this one, they don't have to follow cortex order with a ccr!We do that with ours, just prevent increase of breathing work! In that case the only hypercapnia what should arrive (exept water in loop)come from sofmoline saturation in time and should not by hard underwater work! With IDA71 single scrubber, I made a few dives below 50m (max 80) wih single scrubber (believe me when I tell you that I know what efforts in dive are) without any problem, and far from any limit! This is just my way that I wanted to explain, and also to justify my choices made on my own experience, based on many training of sofmoline/dives since 23 years best regards bernard
(Offline)

6th July 2007, 10:57	#30 (permalink)
Corallaro IDA-71,IDA-76,NaubosAR90 Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Italia - Sicilia Posts: 248	Re: Need Math Lesson Hi Bernard.... I'm not a reb Guru...i'm starting now to know them.... Just for this i prefer, since they are available, use two scrubbers. In the experience that i have described up, the workload was very very high for my body..i am a 42 years old and don't make a particular sport ... I had pains to muscles of the legs ..... And i haven't any trace of hipercapnia even if for the effort my breathing was accelerated (from O.C. i use to control ever my breathing) .. Most divers as you, uses right the single scrubber configurations. In my opinion the dual scrubber configuration is a precaution, since they are available, for unexpected situations as I have described up... In normal situations, as your and others experience, the single scrubber seems to be OK... And the efficiency of a scrubber depends also from his design, and design of the loop, not only from the quantity of soda-lime. The Buddy Inspiration also use +- 2kg of soda lime but have two counterlungs and a particular design to slow down the speed of gas... So, we are, with ours modify, the real-time testers of IDA-71 MCCR.. and that make very important to share ours experiences/opinions This is only my opinion...... Best regards Giovanni Last edited by Corallaro : 6th July 2007 at 11:37.
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