Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal

**Dave Sutton** · 26th May 2007, 15:57

Funny that the thread asked the question yesterday, as one of todays (many) LDSOH's jobs was to re-valve a pair of AKA-60 bottles so that Fireman does not need to FEDEX his DIN bottles to me from Chicago for next weekends U-Boat dives.

Shown is a photo of "Old Blue" (Ancient RI Swamp-Yankee Beach-Buggy Chevy Suburban plastered with diving stickers, seagull-shit, and rust streaks) sitting ensconced on an AKA-60 bottle that has just been re-valved with a Draeger Kleinkonish 200 BAR DIN valve. Note the wooden blocks I use (high friction and low scratching potential) and the tire of the Suburban. All you need to do is to drive forward and add pressure to the assembly with the truck. Works great. Photo taken not 10 minutes ago. Time for iced tea! Getting hot in this neck of the woods! Made the huge error of mistaking warm air with warm water yesterday and jumped in to do a little freediving spearfishing with cotton gloves on. OUCH!! That didn't last long.

This works on all tapered valves.

Dave

decoweenie · 26th May 2007, 19:52

I also have used many tapered valves over the years living near Germany (they are cheap).

And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose...

John (narked@90) is selling a similar DIN rod to what I have.

**Dave Sutton** · 27th May 2007, 01:46

[quote=decoweenie;117170]And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose...

Which works fine if you are dealing with DIN valves, but not so good if you are dealing with the original Russian valves... male threads and no bore into which to insert a rod. The Russian valves are torqued in at about 100 foot pounds, convert to metric if you like, but in any case you need to pin them down, as also you need to pin down the common (in the USA) 1/2 NPT which are a far less "tapered" thread than the German Kleinkonish, and which as a result need far higher torque values to seal.

We've actually broken off Russian valves in the cylinder trying to remove them. They are in *tight*. Cemented in, one might say.

Dave

cool_hardware52 · 27th May 2007, 02:09

[quote=Dave Sutton;117197]

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose...

Which works fine if you are dealing with DIN valves, but not so good if you are dealing with the original Russian valves... male threads and no bore into which to insert a rod. The Russian valves are torqued in at about 100 foot pounds, convert to metric if you like, but in any case you need to pin them down, as also you need to pin down the common (in the USA) 1/2 NPT which are a far less "tapered" thread than the German Kleinkonish, and which as a result need far higher torque values to seal.

We've actually broken off Russian valves in the cylinder trying to remove them. They are in *tight*. Cemented in, one might say.

Dave

I'd be tempted to carefully apply a little heat to the neck of the valve, temp stick and caution.

I'd be real surprised if ~900 degrees F didn't help a great deal.

Tobin

RAL · 27th May 2007, 02:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

I'd be tempted to carefully apply a little heat to the neck of the valve, temp stick and caution.

I'd be real surprised if ~900 degrees F didn't help a great deal.

Tobin

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled!

Ral

cool_hardware52 · 27th May 2007, 05:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled!

Ral

What's the transition temperature for steel?

What's the tempering temperature?

What does heating a heat treated steel to below it's prior tempering temperature do to the steel?

What do you think happens to a steel tank when it's hot dip galvanized in a zinc bath at ~900-1200 degrees F?

Tobin

**Dave Sutton** · 27th May 2007, 13:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled!

Ral

Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot".

Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone.

Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them.

Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are.

All of the bad stuff anyone has read about after heating is with aluminum cylinders. Even the heat of doing powder coating has annealed some sufficiently to have them fail. That's not true with steel. As was pointed out, they get dunked in molten zinc fot their galvanizing. We have heated steel cylinders and gotten valves out of them, and the ones we broke off the valves in were into aluminum. Go figure.

Dave

RAL · 27th May 2007, 13:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

What's the transition temperature for steel?

What's the tempering temperature?

What does heating a heat treated steel to below it's prior tempering temperature do to the steel?

What do you think happens to a steel tank when it's hot dip galvanized in a zinc bath at ~900-1200 degrees F?

Tobin

Tobin

Go ahead, I'll wait in the truck.

Ral

RAL · 27th May 2007, 13:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot".

Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone.

Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them.

Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are.

All of the bad stuff anyone has read about after heating is with aluminum cylinders. Even the heat of doing powder coating has annealed some sufficiently to have them fail. That's not true with steel. As was pointed out, they get dunked in molten zinc fot their galvanizing. We have heated steel cylinders and gotten valves out of them, and the ones we broke off the valves in were into aluminum. Go figure.

Dave

I stand corrected. Why don't you heat the tanks to pull the valves? I'll still wait in the truck

Ral

cool_hardware52 · 27th May 2007, 22:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot".

Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone.

Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them.

Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are.

Use your handy pocket magnet, if it sticks it's steel

Tobin

26th May 2007, 19:52	#2 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal I also have used many tapered valves over the years living near Germany (they are cheap). And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose... John (narked@90) is selling a similar DIN rod to what I have. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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27th May 2007, 01:46	#3 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal [quote=decoweenie;117170]And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose... Which works fine if you are dealing with DIN valves, but not so good if you are dealing with the original Russian valves... male threads and no bore into which to insert a rod. The Russian valves are torqued in at about 100 foot pounds, convert to metric if you like, but in any case you need to pin them down, as also you need to pin down the common (in the USA) 1/2 NPT which are a far less "tapered" thread than the German Kleinkonish, and which as a result need far higher torque values to seal. We've actually broken off Russian valves in the cylinder trying to remove them. They are in tight. Cemented in, one might say. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 27th May 2007 at 01:49.
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27th May 2007, 02:09	#4 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal [quote=Dave Sutton;117197] Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) And the easier way to remove is sticking a rod with DIN thread into the valve, then roll the tanks on the carpet to use the momentum of the rod hitting the carpet to loosen/tighten the valves. Just 2-3 rolls and the valve is loose... Which works fine if you are dealing with DIN valves, but not so good if you are dealing with the original Russian valves... male threads and no bore into which to insert a rod. The Russian valves are torqued in at about 100 foot pounds, convert to metric if you like, but in any case you need to pin them down, as also you need to pin down the common (in the USA) 1/2 NPT which are a far less "tapered" thread than the German Kleinkonish, and which as a result need far higher torque values to seal. We've actually broken off Russian valves in the cylinder trying to remove them. They are in tight. Cemented in, one might say. Dave I'd be tempted to carefully apply a little heat to the neck of the valve, temp stick and caution. I'd be real surprised if ~900 degrees F didn't help a great deal. Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
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27th May 2007, 02:45	#5 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 391	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) I'd be tempted to carefully apply a little heat to the neck of the valve, temp stick and caution. I'd be real surprised if ~900 degrees F didn't help a great deal. Tobin I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled! Ral __________________ The sea does not care about you.
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27th May 2007, 05:10	#6 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled! Ral What's the transition temperature for steel? What's the tempering temperature? What does heating a heat treated steel to below it's prior tempering temperature do to the steel? What do you think happens to a steel tank when it's hot dip galvanized in a zinc bath at ~900-1200 degrees F? Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com Last edited by cool_hardware52 : 27th May 2007 at 16:27. Reason: duplication
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27th May 2007, 13:06	#7 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a tank that had been heated like that when it is filled! Ral Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot". Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone. Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them. Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are. All of the bad stuff anyone has read about after heating is with aluminum cylinders. Even the heat of doing powder coating has annealed some sufficiently to have them fail. That's not true with steel. As was pointed out, they get dunked in molten zinc fot their galvanizing. We have heated steel cylinders and gotten valves out of them, and the ones we broke off the valves in were into aluminum. Go figure. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 27th May 2007 at 13:09.
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27th May 2007, 13:24	#8 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 391	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) What's the transition temperature for steel? What's the tempering temperature? What does heating a heat treated steel to below it's prior tempering temperature do to the steel? What do you think happens to a steel tank when it's hot dip galvanized in a zinc bath at ~900-1200 degrees F? Tobin Tobin Go ahead, I'll wait in the truck. Ral __________________ The sea does not care about you.
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27th May 2007, 13:35	#9 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 391	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot". Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone. Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them. Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are. All of the bad stuff anyone has read about after heating is with aluminum cylinders. Even the heat of doing powder coating has annealed some sufficiently to have them fail. That's not true with steel. As was pointed out, they get dunked in molten zinc fot their galvanizing. We have heated steel cylinders and gotten valves out of them, and the ones we broke off the valves in were into aluminum. Go figure. Dave I stand corrected. Why don't you heat the tanks to pull the valves? I'll still wait in the truck Ral __________________ The sea does not care about you.
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27th May 2007, 22:19	#10 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Russian (or any other tapered) valve removal Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Tobin is dead on. Steel cylinders? No sweat. Torch them "just hot". Aluminum? No thanks. Leave them alone. Inconel? Bring on the rocket fuel. Not gonna hurt them. Russian cylinders can be any of the three materials. Make sure you know what they are. Use your handy pocket magnet, if it sticks it's steel Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
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