Serial scrubber for the IDA 71

undrh2o · 15th May 2007, 16:16

I was looking through some posts about using 1 or 2 scrubbers in the IDA71 and a thought came to me. In the diagram below the normal arrangement shows that the IDA scrubbers are in parallel but has anyone given though to using them in series? The revo has some advantages in using two scrubbers this way in that the chance of channeling both scrubbers is slight. I assume there would be WOB issues with doing this, no?

I'm going to use my IDA with both scrubbers with off-board DIL for now but I might try a couch/exercise bike dive with them serially after I'm done.

J. V. · 15th May 2007, 16:35

Quote:

I'm going to use my IDA with both scrubbers with off-board DIL for now but I might try a couch/exercise bike dive with them serially after I'm done.

Using two IDA 71 in series will result in high WOB. rEvo use two serial filters, but it's completly different filters.
If you use two IDA filter in parallel, be carreful that's don't mean autonomy X 2, cause we have no way to know which filter gas pass thru. IDA filters in parallel is more to reduce WOB.

**Dave Sutton** · 15th May 2007, 18:19

I agree.

The IDA-71 stands as a *completely* tested military rebreather. Don't change what works. The Russians are no dummies: It's designed that way for a reason.

Dave

fredrik · 15th May 2007, 18:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I agree.

The IDA-71 stands as a *completely* tested military rebreather. Don't change what works. The Russians are no dummies: It's designed that way for a reason.

Dave

I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong)
So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error.

J. V. · 15th May 2007, 19:27

Quote:

I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong)

You're right. I speak about use for us, rec diver, reason to use parallel fliter is to reduce WOB.

Quote:

So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error.

I've try, just to see cause I've no reason for 8 hours sorb autonomy, and I've seen, WOB is high. I've try parallel too. WOB is a little reduced, and more sorb is used (cause changed "just in case"). Is it interesting to use parallel filter? Probably I'll use if I plan a specially hard dive (and want to make with an IDA).

**Dave Sutton** · 15th May 2007, 20:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong)
So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error.

Upon reflection I cannot disagree. Good point, see how it goes.

Other option is to use (1) scrubber for shallow diving...

Dave

zepp · 15th May 2007, 20:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Other option is to use (1) scrubber for shallow diving...

Dave

....works for me

mverick · 15th May 2007, 21:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong)
So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error.

I considered the one scrubber option years ago and set up to do it. Then, I thought about the theory that the Russians actually knew what they were doing. Each scrubber scrubs co2. One produces O2. Well, by adding O2 manually I don't need a scrubber to do that. But, if I remove it, I'm no longer scrubbing co2 and they designed it so both would scrub co2. I eventually decided they weren't stupid and there was a reason to use both to scrubb co2. Ie, single scrubber wasn't enough to do the task. It wasn't designed to do that task.

Cheap insurance. Use both scrubbers like it was designed.

Now in the 72 I use one scubber. It's freakin huge. But it wasn't designed to be a closed system other then for bailout. Surface supplied or bell supplied. Either.

We aren't using these as inteded. Or designed. So, be carefull. Some of there engineering is thrown out the window with the modifications.

J. V. · 15th May 2007, 22:11

Quote:

Ie, single scrubber wasn't enough to do the task. It wasn't designed to do that task.

But it do...
I've used IDA 71 one filter during years up to 90 meters in lake with water around 5°, and it work fine. In moderate or warm water filter duration was 4 hours. IDA filters are well done, periferical flow works and 2 kg sorb are 2 kg sorb. Sure, WOB is more elevate than a Meg, a rEvo or something like that, but it stay correct with Ray DSV and tmx or heliox dil.
One thing I've plan but never do was to add an expiration bag using port originaly designed for O3 scrubber. Want to make a water trap and hope to have better WOB and sorb efficiency. it's theorical, I've never try.

mverick · 15th May 2007, 22:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by J. V.)

But it do...
I've used IDA 71 one filter during years up to 90 meters in lake with water around 5°, and it work fine. In moderate or warm water filter duration was 4 hours. IDA filters are well done, periferical flow works and 2 kg sorb are 2 kg sorb. Sure, WOB is more elevate than a Meg, a rEvo or something like that, but it stay correct with Ray DSV and tmx or heliox dil.
One thing I've plan but never do was to add an expiration bag using port originaly designed for O3 scrubber. Want to make a water trap and hope to have better WOB and sorb efficiency. it's theorical, I've never try.

It was designed to do heavy work also. Not just swim around. Heavy work in which you might be in trouble or tied up and trying to get out. Exactly when you don't want it to happen is when it would.

I don't believe the russians were dumb. I don't doubt it works for you. But, why would you want to risk it? My reasons for a Rebreather are if I get in a place I need to get out of and need extra time. I have it. If I start breathing heavy from stress, fear, and need a good scrubber, I have it. Lost in a wreck, cave, silt out, I have time. And a scrubber that will allow for over exertion and extra CO2 production.

There is a reason they aren't insulated. so the condensation stay's in the bottom of the scrubber. Hit the outer cold can and moisture. CL is a insulated material. So less heat transfer then the metal to water.

Could you increase efficency by insulating the scrubber? Probably, but you just killed it's effect to pull moisture out. Does that matter in the IDA without electronics? Don't know, have to ask the russian who designed it that way. On the IDA72 they insulated the chamber that had a hot water jacket to heat the air. But they didn't insulate the outside of the scrubber. Must have been a reason. They were trying to add heat and they didn't want to insulate. Hmm.... But, they were also supplied air units. Other then bailout.

15th May 2007, 16:16	#1 (permalink)
undrh2o Chris Miller Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 206	Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 I was looking through some posts about using 1 or 2 scrubbers in the IDA71 and a thought came to me. In the diagram below the normal arrangement shows that the IDA scrubbers are in parallel but has anyone given though to using them in series? The revo has some advantages in using two scrubbers this way in that the chance of channeling both scrubbers is slight. I assume there would be WOB issues with doing this, no? I'm going to use my IDA with both scrubbers with off-board DIL for now but I might try a couch/exercise bike dive with them serially after I'm done.
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 16:35	#2 (permalink)
J. V. RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet rEvo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lot & Savoie Posts: 249	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: I'm going to use my IDA with both scrubbers with off-board DIL for now but I might try a couch/exercise bike dive with them serially after I'm done. Using two IDA 71 in series will result in high WOB. rEvo use two serial filters, but it's completly different filters. If you use two IDA filter in parallel, be carreful that's don't mean autonomy X 2, cause we have no way to know which filter gas pass thru. IDA filters in parallel is more to reduce WOB. __________________ -------------------- Jacques NPSFQQA-EDS IT # 007 (remué non agité)
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 18:19	#3 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 I agree. The IDA-71 stands as a completely tested military rebreather. Don't change what works. The Russians are no dummies: It's designed that way for a reason. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 18:47	#4 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 190	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I agree. The IDA-71 stands as a completely tested military rebreather. Don't change what works. The Russians are no dummies: It's designed that way for a reason. Dave I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong) So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error. __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 19:27	#5 (permalink)
J. V. RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet rEvo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lot & Savoie Posts: 249	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong) You're right. I speak about use for us, rec diver, reason to use parallel fliter is to reduce WOB. Quote: So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error. I've try, just to see cause I've no reason for 8 hours sorb autonomy, and I've seen, WOB is high. I've try parallel too. WOB is a little reduced, and more sorb is used (cause changed "just in case"). Is it interesting to use parallel filter? Probably I'll use if I plan a specially hard dive (and want to make with an IDA). __________________ -------------------- Jacques NPSFQQA-EDS IT # 007 (remué non agité) Last edited by J. V. : 15th May 2007 at 19:58.
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 20:45	#6 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik) I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong) So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error. Upon reflection I cannot disagree. Good point, see how it goes. Other option is to use (1) scrubber for shallow diving... Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 20:51	#7 (permalink)
zepp "Dyson with Death" daddy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: midlands Posts: 284	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Other option is to use (1) scrubber for shallow diving... Dave ....works for me __________________ I'm not a bad person.....HONEST my homebuild photos http://www.rebreatherworld.com/photo...ery.php/cat/48 CLASSIC KISS #052/shearwater The Dyson is back
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 21:40	#8 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 555	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik) I don´t know if I am right, but I belive that the only reason in the design was beacuse there was differnt sorb in the two scrubbers, one with normal sorb and the other one with O3 that produce O2. I think that´s the only reason why there are two scrubbers instead of one larger, like in other IDA´s. (Correct me if I´m wrong) So if you don´t use the O3 it should be worth thr try to serial the scrubbers for a test. If the WOB tuns out so bad that it ain´t woth it, change back to parallel again. Trial and error. I considered the one scrubber option years ago and set up to do it. Then, I thought about the theory that the Russians actually knew what they were doing. Each scrubber scrubs co2. One produces O2. Well, by adding O2 manually I don't need a scrubber to do that. But, if I remove it, I'm no longer scrubbing co2 and they designed it so both would scrub co2. I eventually decided they weren't stupid and there was a reason to use both to scrubb co2. Ie, single scrubber wasn't enough to do the task. It wasn't designed to do that task. Cheap insurance. Use both scrubbers like it was designed. Now in the 72 I use one scubber. It's freakin huge. But it wasn't designed to be a closed system other then for bailout. Surface supplied or bell supplied. Either. We aren't using these as inteded. Or designed. So, be carefull. Some of there engineering is thrown out the window with the modifications.
(Online)

15th May 2007, 22:11	#9 (permalink)
J. V. RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet rEvo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lot & Savoie Posts: 249	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: Ie, single scrubber wasn't enough to do the task. It wasn't designed to do that task. But it do... I've used IDA 71 one filter during years up to 90 meters in lake with water around 5°, and it work fine. In moderate or warm water filter duration was 4 hours. IDA filters are well done, periferical flow works and 2 kg sorb are 2 kg sorb. Sure, WOB is more elevate than a Meg, a rEvo or something like that, but it stay correct with Ray DSV and tmx or heliox dil. One thing I've plan but never do was to add an expiration bag using port originaly designed for O3 scrubber. Want to make a water trap and hope to have better WOB and sorb efficiency. it's theorical, I've never try. __________________ -------------------- Jacques NPSFQQA-EDS IT # 007 (remué non agité)
(Offline)

15th May 2007, 22:28	#10 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 555	Re: Serial scrubber for the IDA 71 Quote: (Originally Posted by J. V.) But it do... I've used IDA 71 one filter during years up to 90 meters in lake with water around 5°, and it work fine. In moderate or warm water filter duration was 4 hours. IDA filters are well done, periferical flow works and 2 kg sorb are 2 kg sorb. Sure, WOB is more elevate than a Meg, a rEvo or something like that, but it stay correct with Ray DSV and tmx or heliox dil. One thing I've plan but never do was to add an expiration bag using port originaly designed for O3 scrubber. Want to make a water trap and hope to have better WOB and sorb efficiency. it's theorical, I've never try. It was designed to do heavy work also. Not just swim around. Heavy work in which you might be in trouble or tied up and trying to get out. Exactly when you don't want it to happen is when it would. I don't believe the russians were dumb. I don't doubt it works for you. But, why would you want to risk it? My reasons for a Rebreather are if I get in a place I need to get out of and need extra time. I have it. If I start breathing heavy from stress, fear, and need a good scrubber, I have it. Lost in a wreck, cave, silt out, I have time. And a scrubber that will allow for over exertion and extra CO2 production. There is a reason they aren't insulated. so the condensation stay's in the bottom of the scrubber. Hit the outer cold can and moisture. CL is a insulated material. So less heat transfer then the metal to water. Could you increase efficency by insulating the scrubber? Probably, but you just killed it's effect to pull moisture out. Does that matter in the IDA without electronics? Don't know, have to ask the russian who designed it that way. On the IDA72 they insulated the chamber that had a hot water jacket to heat the air. But they didn't insulate the outside of the scrubber. Must have been a reason. They were trying to add heat and they didn't want to insulate. Hmm.... But, they were also supplied air units. Other then bailout.
(Online)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode