[Mixaddict]

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Stephan,

While I am very aware of all the Hammerheads features and copycat meg style, I am interested to know if you have owned and dived either and the above post is not based on marketing spec sheets,

I would also be interested to here from people with say over 100hrs on the hammerhead CCR without any electronic issues, as I have read quite a few post about issues on the HH electronic and not to many about Apecs problems

When I brought my first vision it was full of bugs Im now on my fourth electronic.

I have over 700 hrs on my meg and its only been to the factory once in 3 years for the upgrade to 2.06, thats good going

I think I was more upset last night when I wrote the post that Bazza had categorized the MEG with a classic inspiration now based on bells and whistles and built in deco it may be true but absolutely not on the whole product, I currently own a few of these units and the best is bar far my Apecs meg.

Hi Matthew,

I make it a policy not to get involved in these "my rig is better than your rig" type discussions. I don't think they ever lead anywhere, and people just get worked up over issues that just can't be decided over the internet. I was wondering however why you are of the opinion that the HH CCR is a "copycat" meg? I can actually see very little similarity between the two units. They have completely different electronics, HH has BOV as standard equipment, radial scrubber as standard, space for 4th cell, DIVA vibrating HUD as standard, deco software, bayonet locking system on canister and the list goes on and on. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. It wouldn't do any good if I did! They are different. The fact that they both have a center canister with tanks mounted externally on the sides, is pretty much all they have in common aside from standard rebreather functions that almost all units have in common. They do look somewhat similar, but looks are not all that important in the overall scheme of things.

Not trying to be argumentative, just understand where you are coming from.

Kind regards,
Randy

[tecdivertraining]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

Hi Matthew,

I make it a policy not to get involved in these "my rig is better than your rig" type discussions. I don't think they ever lead anywhere, and people just get worked up over issues that just can't be decided over the internet. I was wondering however why you are of the opinion that the HH CCR is a "copycat" meg? I can actually see very little similarity between the two units. They have completely different electronics, HH has BOV as standard equipment, radial scrubber as standard, space for 4th cell, DIVA vibrating HUD as standard, deco software, bayonet locking system on canister and the list goes on and on. I'm not implying that one is better than the other. It wouldn't do any good if I did! They are different. The fact that they both have a center canister with tanks mounted externally on the sides, is pretty much all they have in common aside from standard rebreather functions that almost all units have in common. They do look somewhat similar, but looks are not all that important in the overall scheme of things.

Not trying to be argumentative, just understand where you are coming from.

Kind regards,
Randy

Hi Randy

I do agree that’s its not interesting to get into the Mines Bigger than yours debate as I always win, as mine absolute bigger and better so its all a waste of time Only kidding...

But as you ask why I think the HH is copy cat, its a fact that the scrubber, BOV made by Golem were designed for meg users originally and as a few opted for HH an a meg they spotted an opportunity to follow the same module design as the Meg and use the common after market products brought by meg users and put it together as a packaged CCR and it makes perfect business sense. I even thought of adding a HH about 2 years ago to my unit and decided not to as there was to many post from users with electronic issues and I wanted the HUD cable in black not Yellow

Cheers matt

[diverklondike]

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

But as you ask why I think the HH is copy cat, its a fact that the scrubber, BOV made by Golem were designed for meg users originally and as a few opted for HH an a meg they spotted an opportunity to follow the same module design as the Meg and use the common after market products brought by meg users and put it together as a packaged CCR and it makes perfect business sense. I even thought of adding a HH about 2 years ago to my unit and decided not to as there was to many post from users with electronic issues and I wanted the HUD cable in black not Yellow

Cheers matt

Matt,

Just to be clear as it applies to the BOV. It was designed to address a gap in the marketplace for SEVERAL rebreathers. The Meg just happened to be one of them. I know that because I had one of the first Golem BOVs and it came standard with Inspiration threads. No disagreement on the radial scrubber.... I agree with Randy on not liking to get in the "mine bigger than yours".... While the Meg is an excellent RIG. We all agree on the fact that the current Meg electronics are not as feature rich as many others that are out in the market today. This is a significant difference between the rigs and one of the many reasons that there are as many HammerMegs around and potentially as we are hearing APICS/Shearwater Megs again.

Dive Safe...

Mark

[Bazza]

Matt ... I can see you are passionate about your unit and that is all well and fine, I love my very very old Inspo but it does not stop me pulling back and looking at the marketplace in general.

This is not a mines bigger than yours thing it’s more about development and advancement of the rebreather industry. More and more units and moving over to the high tec electronic solutions to basic rebreather problems. We are seeing units like the offerings from CCR, Dive Rite, APD and JR taking up the challenge of these new technologies and using them in their units. Just as an example, the Vision S/W download feature, simply magic, so easy to use, does nothing to improve the dive but goes a long way to providing easy of use and customer satisfaction.

I am sure once ISC get their new S/W up and running this will place their units into the second gen category but until then they just have very good first gen products. Now to the average Luddite that is fine but to the rest of us the introduction and use of new technology is a way of life and is general accepted.

The only wild card out there is the MKVI, one to watch maybe even gen three, which will make the gen one units look very “quaint”.

Regards Baz

[caveseeker7]

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

While I am very aware of all the Hammerheads features and copycat meg style, ...

Copycat is an easy word to throw around in the Rebreather world, IMHO there hasn't been much original thinking. The center stack scrubber with electronics contained on top, situated between tanks has been done for a while ... the Electrolung comes to mind, about the same time as the CCR1000, 40 years ago! Look at an UT240, and it looks a lot like some current units, a dozend or so years ago.

Some (and certainly not all!) original thinking by Gordon Smith on the Sport Kiss Scrubber and by Paul Raymakers on the rEvo scrubber. Bits and bobs here and there by others. But there are only so many ways to bolt all the needed bits together.

Hence the copycat accusation can be thrown at just about anybody getting into that biz since 1970 in some way or other.

The only bit I can see that really deserves it on the HH CCR is that cell holder, looks like the same dumb design used on Meg. And to be fair, it's not like ISC doesn't use other people's idea, either. Ever heard of the Smithers code? Talk about copying.

Quote:

... I am interested to know if you have owned and dived either and the above post is not based on marketing spec sheets

Nope. Don't think I will own either one any time soon.
Nor do I need to to point out the obvious (such as the similarities in the great modular design).

Quote:

I would also be interested to here from people with say over 100hrs on the hammerhead CCR without any electronic issues, as I have read quite a few post about issues on the HH electronic and not to many about Apecs problems

Not too many, but still some? They all do, even the simplest. Just throw the words "horseshoe board" at anyone with CCR1000 and watch ...

Unfortunately they all seem to have electronic shortcomings, some more, some less, and none of the shortcomings even remotely acceptable in a life support system. And that, IMHO, is the sad truth.

By the way, I prefer simple electronics, too, the ones where there are not lots of buttons to push, menus to scroll and selections to be made.

[jradomski]

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Copycat is an easy word to throw around in the Rebreather world, IMHO there hasn't been much original thinking. The center stack scrubber with electronics contained on top, situated between tanks has been done for a while ... the Electrolung comes to mind, about the same time as the CCR1000, 40 years ago! Look at an UT240, and it looks a lot like some current units, a dozend or so years ago.

Don't foget about the early shadow packs.. as to the tank layout and mounting.. plus another current rigs scrubber is virtually the same...

The way the megs scrubber plugs into its head is the same as was done in the ut-240 many years prior.. the only difference is that the ut-240 isolated the cartridge so that there was an extra level of insulation to keep the scrubber warm but did not allow for a radial..

[caveseeker7]

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Don't foget about the early shadow packs.. as to the tank layout and mounting.. plus another current rigs scrubber is virtually the same...

I didn't, hence the "certainly not all".

[tecdivertraining]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bazza)

Matt ... I can see you are passionate about your unit and that is all well and fine, I love my very very old Inspo but it does not stop me pulling back and looking at the marketplace in general.

Fair comment, I suppose I'm always looking at technological Advancements in all aspects of life. I'm just not always convinced that bells and whistle make a better product even if they sound like you must have them of the spec sheets. Take My old 355 berlinetta I would not have traded it for the new 360 with padle shift for love no money, But for some its the bees-knees. But as Ive gat a bit older give me a fully automatic anyday.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bazza)

I am sure once ISC get their new S/W up and running this will place their units into the second gen category but until then they just have very good first gen products. Now to the average Luddite that is fine but to the rest of us the introduction and use of new technology is a way of life and is general accepted.

I'm sure when ISC new upgrades finally reach the market they will be a good products but I still think I will use external computers and cut tables for the kind of dives that rocks my world.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bazza)

The only wild card out there is the MKVI, one to watch maybe even gen three, which will make the gen one units look very “quaint”.

Having met with the MD of Poseidon two weeks ago and had the pleasure of stripping and playing with this new unit I can see some very cool features, would I dive it other than to clean my pool no, but sure if they take some of its feature and make a unit for the tec community thats more robust but still compact and travel friendly they may be onto a winner. The battery pod was a very cool feature.

Cheers Matt

[tecdivertraining]

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Copycat is an easy word to throw around in the Rebreather world, IMHO there hasn't been much original thinking. The center stack scrubber with electronics contained on top, situated between tanks has been done for a while ... the Electrolung comes to mind, about the same time as the CCR1000, 40 years ago! Look at an UT240, and it looks a lot like some current units, a dozend or so years ago.

It was only a small dig While I agree that to the untrained eye the designs may not have changed in appearance technological advancements in materials, design software suits and tools as well as electronic components have changed a great deal. the Model T made over a century ago still had four wheels a body and a steering wheel but quite a lot has changed since then in the world of automobiles but fundamentally they still look the same.[/quote]

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Some (and certainly not all!) original thinking by Gordon Smith on the Sport Kiss Scrubber and by Paul Raymakers on the rEvo scrubber. Bits and bobs here and there by others. But there are only so many ways to bolt all the needed bits together.

Agreed, But still think that boris still shines above all other units as far a system design goes.

[quote=caveseeker7;184129] The only bit I can see that really deserves it on the HH CCR is that cell holder, looks like the same dumb design used on Meg. And to be fair, it's not like ISC doesn't use other people's idea, either. Ever heard of the Smithers code? Talk about copying. [/quote]

Please explain what you think is silly about it...

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Unfortunately they all seem to have electronic shortcomings, some more, some less, and none of the shortcomings even remotely acceptable in a life support system. And that, IMHO, is the sad truth.

I respect you personal opinion.

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

By the way, I prefer simple electronics, too, the ones where there are not lots of buttons to push, menus to scroll and selections to be made.

Good to here so does that mean its a vote for the Apecs over the hammerhead then?

Take it easy

[Mark Chase]

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

Can anybody show some pictures of those famous holes?
Why was the drilled and what posetive and negative effects did they have on the handsets?

Sorry M8 don't kid yourself, its just a bullshit story that crops up every now and again.

I bought an Inspo with a Hammer Head unit. The chap who sold it to me also had a second Hamer Head that had flooded and was broken. It worked air only which was useless for me. This was the one he'd tried to fix with bigger bolts.

I never dived this unit. I sent it straight to Kevin who replaced the hand sets with the latest anodized units then I sold the head to a chap in Newzealand.


So urban myth designed to discredit me or total bullshit, take your pic.

Kevin knows all this so i have no idea why he keeps mentioning it.


In totle I owned three HH I had the same reboot problems and contact issues on the two I regularly dived but I am told after new mother boards were fitted they are now fine.




Hear is my unit showing me at 579m deep in my shead.




Hear is my unit rebooting over and over again on a brand new 3.6v saft (I tried three) with crimped threads with Noalox on them. I fitted a new mother board and it worked fine on the same battery.




As yuocan see they all have standard screws fitted.





ATB

Mark