Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view

dave t · 6th February 2007, 16:22

<<<yep that one is true but they had the one before when they were only making the autoair>>>

That one is a far cry from what they have now, the origional one was only good for regs and a few other bits. The new one will swallow a complete breather, and a sizable lump of bank balance

)

**Gill Envy** · 6th February 2007, 16:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

If and it is a big if I agree, the percentages on Rebreather World are indicative of the precentages of RBs out there in the world then there are less visions then everyone suspects.....

(please excuse me for my excessively long posts lately, for some reason particularly complicated issues have come up recently that warrent seriuos discussion and for some reason i just seem unable to put my thoughts down in few words...just know i'm am making an effort.)

Partly first hand experience and partly here say: Inspiration dealers and some owners feel that that this site is slanted toward the meg and actively descourage new vision owners from joining Rebreather World, which may explain the lower percentage of inspo/evo owners on RBW compared to other units. Also, Meg owners, KISS owners seem to be, by nature of design philosopy of their training, poineering and independent people, most likely to seek out independent perspectives. Inspo/evo owners are part of a larger mass market which at least has the appearance of being the leader. As a group, they may be more inclined to rely entirely on the dealer/manufacturer for information (IMHO), there is quite a private list serve through AP that invites ciricism to be aired directly to them.

If the numbers of classic inspos, vision inspos and evolutions adds up to something like 10,000, it would make a lot of sense that there would be something like 20 times the incidences of fatalities and problems with AP products over the years than with the Meg or other units and that a high percentage of those folks who had recurring problems would seek an independent source of information through a venue like Rebreather World once pissed off enough...and that those people would be particularly loud and feed into the rant mentality.

The apparent fact the Rebreather World is a place that attracts disgruntled inspo/evo owners and tollerates a lot of citicism of AP probably does give an impression to some that RBW is slanted, even though i don't think this is actively propagated by the moderators. The sad part to me is that i'm guessing it is steering people disproportionately away from purchasing AP products, when aside from a likely average number of issues the vision electronics still seem like the best out there to me.

Continuing to put pressure on the manufacturer through open complaints and solicitation for fixes is a good thing but should be kept in context. We should expect to here more complaints of AP products here on Rebreather World than any other rebreather, it does not necessarily mean AP products are inferior or their service is by and large Bad. If that were true, you would think that crap materials and service would have some effect on mortality rates (training and vigilance not withstanding)...instead, it seems that mortality rates are falling among AP products...you don't here the acronym YBOD used to describe the inspo much anymore. (this is just my oppinion, please don't kill me for saying it, pretty please

)

A year ago i might have agreed that there was a strong sland toward the Meg, in fact i used to refer to this site as Megworld to my friends, but at this point I think it's also apparent that there are more and more efforts being made to assure an even handed representation of problems with other units and to tone down some of the AP rant...and within reason, this is a good thing.

Kudos to the administrators!

silent running · 6th February 2007, 18:13

Gill, FWIW I've never thought that Rebreather World was "slanted" towords any breather. Anytime I detected a pile on mentality it came from a group of vocal owners of that unit. I've never seen the Mods come down on any particular "bashers" unless they started slinging insults of a personal nature. I think you've noticed this as well.

As for APD dealers discouraging people from visiting Rebreather World, that's pretty lame. APD take the most heat for the simple reason that they have the most units out there, it's not a plot or conspiracy. It's lonely at the top, but I don't feel as sorry for them as I did for Elvis...

**Gill Envy** · 6th February 2007, 18:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Gill, FWIW I've never thought that Rebreather World was "slanted" towords any breather. Anytime I detected a pile on mentality it came from a group of vocal owners of that unit. I've never seen the Mods come down on any particular "bashers" unless they started slinging insults of a personal nature. I think you've noticed this as well.

As for APD dealers discouraging people from visiting Rebreather World, that's pretty lame. APD take the most heat for the simple reason that they have the most units out there, it's not a plot or conspiracy.

Andy, points well taken. Conveying impressions or things i've heard from others is only an attempt to communicate what i've heard and sometimes thought, that might explain some trends, not really to defend it per sey or suggest actual conspiracy.

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

It's lonely at the top, but I don't feel as sorry for them as I did for Elvis...

LOL

dantheman · 6th February 2007, 19:22

Rebreather World slanted to Meg? I've never thought that.
Sure, it's sexy, but looks aren't everything

I think a better indication of "slant" (in a non-perjorative sense),
would be # of posts regarding the units... I'd bet there's are roughly
similar size conversation about the KISS units as for the Meg.

Stuart, is the 400 megs figure right?
Also, given what Gill says about Rebreather World's rep among the non-geeky
AP owners and dealers, I doubt their absence is that important.

Rebreather World's signal to noise ratio is far more crucial to its success.
--dan

***jradomski*** · 6th February 2007, 19:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman)

Stuart, is the 400 megs figure right?
--dan

Its got to be very close.. from Rebreather#s that I have seen and info that I have heard from others, My guess is that its within 20 units..

I know when I was there last march they were at 270-280, and I heard they sold 130 last year.. so thats right in the ballpark.. I also know someone who received a meg not long ago and its serial number was under 400..

Barrie Law · 6th February 2007, 22:14

I was talking to Nicky today at APD and the current waiting time for a Vision is 3 to 4 months from date of order.

I dive with a group in Dublin that has about 20 members and 16 of them have APD units and the other 4 are currently doing the mod 1 course and have units on order.

My point is from that group maybe 6 would be members on Rebreather World or regular visitors to this excellent site the rest have probably never seen RBW.

I do not know if it comes from the need to feel secure in some way but as the keen willing young lady said to the eager although not very well endowed young man "who are you going to please with THAT" to which he replied quite honestly "MYSELF".

I know that is an old example but it does hit the nail on the head that if I am happy with my unit - Job Done.

I recently received a new vision from APD but I have not yet revised my unit listing and I will do that when I start diving it..................

Regards

dantheman · 6th February 2007, 22:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

...and I heard they sold 130 last year..

That's an incredible ramp up in production.
Kudos to Leon and his team.

--dan

**Dave Sutton** · 7th February 2007, 02:06

How many Mark-15's on the list?

Dave

fubari · 7th February 2007, 02:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

which may explain the lower percentage of inspo/evo owners on Rebreather World compared to other units.

Perhaps another factor could be there are insp & evo owners who feel adequately connected on the drogon mailing list? That has been around for a while now, yes? I never joined - is it active these days?

6th February 2007, 16:22	#21 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 654	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view <<<yep that one is true but they had the one before when they were only making the autoair>>> That one is a far cry from what they have now, the origional one was only good for regs and a few other bits. The new one will swallow a complete breather, and a sizable lump of bank balance )
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6th February 2007, 16:35	#22 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) If and it is a big if I agree, the percentages on Rebreather World are indicative of the precentages of RBs out there in the world then there are less visions then everyone suspects..... (please excuse me for my excessively long posts lately, for some reason particularly complicated issues have come up recently that warrent seriuos discussion and for some reason i just seem unable to put my thoughts down in few words...just know i'm am making an effort.) Partly first hand experience and partly here say: Inspiration dealers and some owners feel that that this site is slanted toward the meg and actively descourage new vision owners from joining Rebreather World, which may explain the lower percentage of inspo/evo owners on RBW compared to other units. Also, Meg owners, KISS owners seem to be, by nature of design philosopy of their training, poineering and independent people, most likely to seek out independent perspectives. Inspo/evo owners are part of a larger mass market which at least has the appearance of being the leader. As a group, they may be more inclined to rely entirely on the dealer/manufacturer for information (IMHO), there is quite a private list serve through AP that invites ciricism to be aired directly to them. If the numbers of classic inspos, vision inspos and evolutions adds up to something like 10,000, it would make a lot of sense that there would be something like 20 times the incidences of fatalities and problems with AP products over the years than with the Meg or other units and that a high percentage of those folks who had recurring problems would seek an independent source of information through a venue like Rebreather World once pissed off enough...and that those people would be particularly loud and feed into the rant mentality. The apparent fact the Rebreather World is a place that attracts disgruntled inspo/evo owners and tollerates a lot of citicism of AP probably does give an impression to some that RBW is slanted, even though i don't think this is actively propagated by the moderators. The sad part to me is that i'm guessing it is steering people disproportionately away from purchasing AP products, when aside from a likely average number of issues the vision electronics still seem like the best out there to me. Continuing to put pressure on the manufacturer through open complaints and solicitation for fixes is a good thing but should be kept in context. We should expect to here more complaints of AP products here on Rebreather World than any other rebreather, it does not necessarily mean AP products are inferior or their service is by and large Bad. If that were true, you would think that crap materials and service would have some effect on mortality rates (training and vigilance not withstanding)...instead, it seems that mortality rates are falling among AP products...you don't here the acronym YBOD used to describe the inspo much anymore. (this is just my oppinion, please don't kill me for saying it, pretty please) A year ago i might have agreed that there was a strong sland toward the Meg, in fact i used to refer to this site as Megworld to my friends, but at this point I think it's also apparent that there are more and more efforts being made to assure an even handed representation of problems with other units and to tone down some of the AP rant...and within reason, this is a good thing. Kudos to the administrators! __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 6th February 2007 at 17:05.
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6th February 2007, 18:13	#23 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Gill, FWIW I've never thought that Rebreather World was "slanted" towords any breather. Anytime I detected a pile on mentality it came from a group of vocal owners of that unit. I've never seen the Mods come down on any particular "bashers" unless they started slinging insults of a personal nature. I think you've noticed this as well. As for APD dealers discouraging people from visiting Rebreather World, that's pretty lame. APD take the most heat for the simple reason that they have the most units out there, it's not a plot or conspiracy. It's lonely at the top, but I don't feel as sorry for them as I did for Elvis...
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6th February 2007, 18:35	#24 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Gill, FWIW I've never thought that Rebreather World was "slanted" towords any breather. Anytime I detected a pile on mentality it came from a group of vocal owners of that unit. I've never seen the Mods come down on any particular "bashers" unless they started slinging insults of a personal nature. I think you've noticed this as well. As for APD dealers discouraging people from visiting Rebreather World, that's pretty lame. APD take the most heat for the simple reason that they have the most units out there, it's not a plot or conspiracy. Andy, points well taken. Conveying impressions or things i've heard from others is only an attempt to communicate what i've heard and sometimes thought, that might explain some trends, not really to defend it per sey or suggest actual conspiracy. Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) It's lonely at the top, but I don't feel as sorry for them as I did for Elvis... LOL __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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6th February 2007, 19:22	#25 (permalink)
dantheman Emoticonoclast Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Join Date: May 2005 Location: NorthEast USA Posts: 394	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Rebreather World slanted to Meg? I've never thought that. Sure, it's sexy, but looks aren't everything I think a better indication of "slant" (in a non-perjorative sense), would be # of posts regarding the units... I'd bet there's are roughly similar size conversation about the KISS units as for the Meg. Stuart, is the 400 megs figure right? Also, given what Gill says about Rebreather World's rep among the non-geeky AP owners and dealers, I doubt their absence is that important. Rebreather World's signal to noise ratio is far more crucial to its success. --dan
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6th February 2007, 19:30	#26 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Quote: (Originally Posted by dantheman) Stuart, is the 400 megs figure right? --dan Its got to be very close.. from Rebreather#s that I have seen and info that I have heard from others, My guess is that its within 20 units.. I know when I was there last march they were at 270-280, and I heard they sold 130 last year.. so thats right in the ballpark.. I also know someone who received a meg not long ago and its serial number was under 400.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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6th February 2007, 22:14	#27 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 726	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view I was talking to Nicky today at APD and the current waiting time for a Vision is 3 to 4 months from date of order. I dive with a group in Dublin that has about 20 members and 16 of them have APD units and the other 4 are currently doing the mod 1 course and have units on order. My point is from that group maybe 6 would be members on Rebreather World or regular visitors to this excellent site the rest have probably never seen RBW. I do not know if it comes from the need to feel secure in some way but as the keen willing young lady said to the eager although not very well endowed young man "who are you going to please with THAT" to which he replied quite honestly "MYSELF". I know that is an old example but it does hit the nail on the head that if I am happy with my unit - Job Done. I recently received a new vision from APD but I have not yet revised my unit listing and I will do that when I start diving it.................. Regards __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
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6th February 2007, 22:49	#28 (permalink)
dantheman Emoticonoclast Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Join Date: May 2005 Location: NorthEast USA Posts: 394	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) ...and I heard they sold 130 last year.. That's an incredible ramp up in production. Kudos to Leon and his team. --dan
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7th February 2007, 02:06	#29 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,688	Re: Numbers of different units out there - the Rebreather World view How many Mark-15's on the list? Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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7th February 2007, 02:27	#30 (permalink)
fubari New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 113	drogon? Re: lower percentage of inspo/evo owners on Rebreather World Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) which may explain the lower percentage of inspo/evo owners on Rebreather World compared to other units. Perhaps another factor could be there are insp & evo owners who feel adequately connected on the drogon mailing list? That has been around for a while now, yes? I never joined - is it active these days?
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