counter lung lead

**jmurba** · 24th January 2007, 07:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso)

Jean Mi,

All my lead is on my unit. 5kg on the shell, 5kg for the cage, 3.5kg SS backplate, a steel2l of O2, a 1.2l for Ar, which all together is just enough to get me down with the drysuit. I use a Dive Rite Classic wing which is more than enough to bring up all that. Plus I also have the drysuit for backup inflation.

I have never come up with a way to make any of it ditchable. If I need less, I just take out the screwdriver. It is all pretty high up towards my shoulders and down to just above the waist. For me it gives me good trim. (My back has an aversion to a weight belt on long dives.)

Dale

Hi Dale,

Trim is an important question and the fact that we have to locate the lead high an behin us is well the problem cause it is not easily ditachable.
I also thought it was not a problem not to be able to drop the lead , but on the other hand as i dive with a very ligth kit (no dil redudancy, simple bladder wing, most of the time wet suit ) it was difficult for me not to get a way of loosing weigth to gain boyancy in case of loop drowning.

regards

jean mi

Marc T · 24th January 2007, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

Hi Dale,

Trim is an important question and the fact that we have to locate the lead high an behin us is well the problem cause it is not easily ditachable.
I also thought it was not a problem not to be able to drop the lead , but on the other hand as i dive with a very ligth kit (no dil redudancy, simple bladder wing, most of the time wet suit ) it was difficult for me not to get a way of loosing weigth to gain boyancy in case of loop drowning.

regards

jean mi

I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume.
In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die...

I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit.
A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet"....

As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke.
Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill

pchanning · 24th January 2007, 09:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T)

I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume.
In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die...

I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit.
A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet"....

As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke.
Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill

Thanks for your post Marc - it is very important.
Sorry for your loss.
Regards

bletso · 24th January 2007, 11:42

For all those who have the misfortune to dive wet, a dual bladder is the logical choice, really the only choice. Unless someone has practiced deploying and controlling ascent with a lft bag, you don't want to try it in an emergency. (You will have enough on your mind with the loop loss.)

Although I like neoprene dry, they have the same pitfall as a wet suit, i. e. loss of bouyancy at depth. As a result you will have to compensate for loop loss and suit bouyancy loss making you a potential muffin man. (another possible need for a dual bladder.)

I now dive a pack suit and use it as my backup bouyancy, and have practiced it a lot.

Dale

**jmurba** · 24th January 2007, 13:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T)

I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume.
In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die...

I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit.
A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet"....

As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke.
Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill

Salut Marc,
I agree with you , but you have to tell that you are a cave diver where i am a little 0-50m normoxic trimix dil kiss style ccr diver, enven when i venture 15m deeper then that my decos never exceed 25'.
So it is not the same game, I need to be ligth, and to get rid of redundant dil tanks , big wing etc.
Your friend certainely died because of lack of boyancy due to lack of Boyancy , but certainely using heavy steel stage tanks,and a big twin on the back, nothing to see with a litgh open sea trimix dive using a neutraly boyant S80.
I understand that your response to this loss is to double wings and tanks, neverttheless i still think that a dropable lead is not the only solution but that it could help in a bad situation.
I will try anyway to drown my loop to see what happend.

regards

jean mi

Mdemon · 24th January 2007, 22:07

I carry a block or two in my Inspo pouch. I could ditch them I suppose. I would rather get buoyant than ditch though - a real mistake if on a long dive I think.

Redundant gas is from crack bottle (that's what APD put it there for!) and offboard gas into DS. Last resorts will be inflating counterlungs, inverting and filling my (baggy) DS and I have some autoblobs which might be of some use. I think the volume in my DS is potentially huge.

I have a puny 16Kg wing. I clipped the Inspo (full wing) to a line in fresh water and took it off, only to watch it slowly sink. I am what is keeping my unit afloat! Bigger wing looking like a very good idea.

**jmurba** · 25th January 2007, 08:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

I carry a block or two in my Inspo pouch. I could ditch them I suppose. I would rather get buoyant than ditch though - a real mistake if on a long dive I think.

Redundant gas is from crack bottle (that's what APD put it there for!) and offboard gas into DS. Last resorts will be inflating counterlungs, inverting and filling my (baggy) DS and I have some autoblobs which might be of some use. I think the volume in my DS is potentially huge.

I have a puny 16Kg wing. I clipped the Inspo (full wing) to a line in fresh water and took it off, only to watch it slowly sink. I am what is keeping my unit afloat! Bigger wing looking like a very good idea.

Hi,

IHMO dropping the lead is a safe gas saving in case of a floaded loop , unless you have a double wing and a double gas source with engouh gas to lift the fiver and compensate to loss of boyancy caused by loop floading,
my problem is to get rid as mutch kit as possible, i am somewhere fed up equippement for my kind of shalow dives of course.
Why the hell would i look like a deep cave diver just to dive in 45 msw with shorts deco using a kissed dolphin ?
I definitely have to test a loop floading to see what happend in sutch a case.

regards

jean mi

View Poll Results: can you drop your lead
yes a part of it	29	36.71%
yes all the lead	22	27.85%
I cant' drop the lead	28	35.44%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

24th January 2007, 07:09	#31 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso) Jean Mi, All my lead is on my unit. 5kg on the shell, 5kg for the cage, 3.5kg SS backplate, a steel2l of O2, a 1.2l for Ar, which all together is just enough to get me down with the drysuit. I use a Dive Rite Classic wing which is more than enough to bring up all that. Plus I also have the drysuit for backup inflation. I have never come up with a way to make any of it ditchable. If I need less, I just take out the screwdriver. It is all pretty high up towards my shoulders and down to just above the waist. For me it gives me good trim. (My back has an aversion to a weight belt on long dives.) Dale Hi Dale, Trim is an important question and the fact that we have to locate the lead high an behin us is well the problem cause it is not easily ditachable. I also thought it was not a problem not to be able to drop the lead , but on the other hand as i dive with a very ligth kit (no dil redudancy, simple bladder wing, most of the time wet suit ) it was difficult for me not to get a way of loosing weigth to gain boyancy in case of loop drowning. regards jean mi
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24th January 2007, 07:56	#32 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 498	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) Hi Dale, Trim is an important question and the fact that we have to locate the lead high an behin us is well the problem cause it is not easily ditachable. I also thought it was not a problem not to be able to drop the lead , but on the other hand as i dive with a very ligth kit (no dil redudancy, simple bladder wing, most of the time wet suit ) it was difficult for me not to get a way of loosing weigth to gain boyancy in case of loop drowning. regards jean mi I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume. In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die... I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit. A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet".... As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke. Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill
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24th January 2007, 09:34	#33 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T) I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume. In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die... I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit. A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet".... As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke. Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill Thanks for your post Marc - it is very important. Sorry for your loss. Regards __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
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24th January 2007, 11:42	#34 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 263	Re: counter lung lead For all those who have the misfortune to dive wet, a dual bladder is the logical choice, really the only choice. Unless someone has practiced deploying and controlling ascent with a lft bag, you don't want to try it in an emergency. (You will have enough on your mind with the loop loss.) Although I like neoprene dry, they have the same pitfall as a wet suit, i. e. loss of bouyancy at depth. As a result you will have to compensate for loop loss and suit bouyancy loss making you a potential muffin man. (another possible need for a dual bladder.) I now dive a pack suit and use it as my backup bouyancy, and have practiced it a lot. Dale
(Online)

24th January 2007, 13:37	#35 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T) I think the only realistic way is double blader wing with great volume. In case of a problem most of the time you have not time enough to clearly understand what happen, and how many bouyancy youve really lost by flooding your loop ( partial, total? ), if you frow your lead perhaps youll loose your deco later and die... I take out all the bunjies of my double maxi wing ( 40 l ) for maximum possible inflation, always separate source for wing emergency wing and suit. A friend of mine ( very experienced )is dead many years ago i a cave, been too havy on a descent on way back with stages tank he was bringing back, no time enough to change the air source of his suit and wing ( one 4 l tank for both ), no place to go up quickly so sqeezed inside...just before the start of his last dive, an other friend told him:" hey dont you need an easy backup for your suit and buoy" its OK I have too many thing on me yet".... As for using a DSMB in emergengy when your drowning faster an faster, thats always seemed to me to be a real joke. Jump in water with empty BCD and when you reach 20 or 30 m try to get bouyancy control with DSMB... and its just a skill Salut Marc, I agree with you , but you have to tell that you are a cave diver where i am a little 0-50m normoxic trimix dil kiss style ccr diver, enven when i venture 15m deeper then that my decos never exceed 25'. So it is not the same game, I need to be ligth, and to get rid of redundant dil tanks , big wing etc. Your friend certainely died because of lack of boyancy due to lack of Boyancy , but certainely using heavy steel stage tanks,and a big twin on the back, nothing to see with a litgh open sea trimix dive using a neutraly boyant S80. I understand that your response to this loss is to double wings and tanks, neverttheless i still think that a dropable lead is not the only solution but that it could help in a bad situation. I will try anyway to drown my loop to see what happend. regards jean mi
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24th January 2007, 22:07	#36 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: counter lung lead I carry a block or two in my Inspo pouch. I could ditch them I suppose. I would rather get buoyant than ditch though - a real mistake if on a long dive I think. Redundant gas is from crack bottle (that's what APD put it there for!) and offboard gas into DS. Last resorts will be inflating counterlungs, inverting and filling my (baggy) DS and I have some autoblobs which might be of some use. I think the volume in my DS is potentially huge. I have a puny 16Kg wing. I clipped the Inspo (full wing) to a line in fresh water and took it off, only to watch it slowly sink. I am what is keeping my unit afloat! Bigger wing looking like a very good idea. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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25th January 2007, 08:34	#37 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) I carry a block or two in my Inspo pouch. I could ditch them I suppose. I would rather get buoyant than ditch though - a real mistake if on a long dive I think. Redundant gas is from crack bottle (that's what APD put it there for!) and offboard gas into DS. Last resorts will be inflating counterlungs, inverting and filling my (baggy) DS and I have some autoblobs which might be of some use. I think the volume in my DS is potentially huge. I have a puny 16Kg wing. I clipped the Inspo (full wing) to a line in fresh water and took it off, only to watch it slowly sink. I am what is keeping my unit afloat! Bigger wing looking like a very good idea. Hi, IHMO dropping the lead is a safe gas saving in case of a floaded loop , unless you have a double wing and a double gas source with engouh gas to lift the fiver and compensate to loss of boyancy caused by loop floading, my problem is to get rid as mutch kit as possible, i am somewhere fed up equippement for my kind of shalow dives of course. Why the hell would i look like a deep cave diver just to dive in 45 msw with shorts deco using a kissed dolphin ? I definitely have to test a loop floading to see what happend in sutch a case. regards jean mi
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