counter lung lead

**jmurba** · 18th January 2007, 11:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ivon)

I think what some of the others meant was that they don't carry any extra lead. In fresh water I have 3 kg on the top of my unit for trim and a 3kg torch no lead to drop. I add another 3 kg in the sea but put this in my unit. If I had a unit flood or a suit flood and could not get up with my wing I would use my DSMB or a lift bag to reel my self up.

Hi yvon,
ha ok I understand, but I can't understand why your wing could not lift you in case of loop floading.
If you are just balanced on slightly negative with you 3 kilos if your loop is drown you will loose only 6 or 7 liters/kg of boyancy that your wing could compensate or ligthen no ?

regards

jean mi

Marc T · 18th January 2007, 12:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

How about a response that says, "I don't carry any lead" ?

Brian

thats my case and its a little problem for some cave dives ( spring ) where its usual ( in France ) to drop some lead weights to need less air in the wing.

**jmurba** · 18th January 2007, 14:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T)

thats my case and its a little problem for some cave dives ( spring ) where its usual ( in France ) to drop some lead weights to need less air in the wing.

I feel in danger not to be able to drop some weigth, as somebody ever tried to dronwn the kloop top see what happends ....?

I've heard that recent accident (i dont want to say any name) have been caused or partly caused by loss of boyancy.

my wing is small, at surface sometime i have difficulties to float !!! and i have the strict mimimun amount of lead onn me (7 kilos with a dry suit).....

regards

jean mi

Philippe GERIN · 18th January 2007, 14:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

second wing bladder

I thought you already had a redundant bladder ready to be hooked on your inboard dil on your Dive Rite wing, don't you?
The way I see it: to counteract the loss of buoyancy due to a flood, I have 2 possibilities: drop sources of negative buoyancy (all sources of weight/ballast: lead, light...) or compensate with redundant sources of positive buoyancy.
No dropable weight for me.
In case of total loop flood on my CK I'd be 12-13kg heavier: 4kg x2 (CLs) + approx 4kg to 5kg (scrub + hoses).
my wing is 18kg/40lbs. I usually dive with an empty wing in normal condition so that would be a 5 to 6 kg reserve.
For redundant lift: drysuit in the first place + primary SMB with 23kg/50lbs of lift capacity on a 50m reel + a closed circuit lift bag stored in the back plate with 35kg/80lbs of lift on a 50m spool.
Mind you, this is my theoritical rational. I never had a total loop flood and never deliberately provoked one.
Best
Philippe

**jmurba** · 18th January 2007, 15:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

I thought you already had a redundant bladder ready to be hooked on your inboard dil on your Dive Rite wing, don't you?

+++ dear phil yes i had, you have a god memory !!! but in fact both bladder was connected to the same tank... so redundancy was not fuul and in addition the dive rite wing was to big for my little 40m average air dil dives, so i installed a simple bladder 20l wing.
i want to simplify to be more confortable.

The way I see it: to counteract the loss of buoyancy due to a flood, I have 2 possibilities: drop sources of negative buoyancy (all sources of weight/ballast: lead, light...) or compensate with redundant sources of positive buoyancy.
No dropable weight for me.
In case of total loop flood on my CK I'd be 12-13kg heavier: 4kg x2 (CLs) + approx 4kg to 5kg (scrub + hoses).
my wing is 18kg/40lbs. I usually dive with an empty wing in normal condition so that would be a 5 to 6 kg reserve.
For redundant lift: drysuit in the first place + primary SMB with 23kg/50lbs of lift capacity on a 50m reel + a closed circuit lift bag stored in the back plate with 35kg/80lbs of lift on a 50m spool.
Mind you, this is my theoritical rational. I never had a total loop flood and never deliberately provoked one.

++++well... i would like to avoid having to depend on a gas source to get me out of loss of boyancy generated by a loop floading... next time i change my sensor ( 1 month) i will drown my loop next to the rib anchor line and with stephen Grenfell to secure me , just to be sure of the effect.. and i will tell all.

Best
Philippe

regards

all the best

jean michel Urbani

pchanning · 18th January 2007, 19:55

This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface. (ooff, just realised the pun - apologies

)
Most people I know have changed them out as they like to have positive bouyancy at the surface.

Figure a loop flood into that...

Apart from that I think Phillippe summed it up well - but I wonder about the "theoretical rationale"

How calm and clear headed... why have I ran out of bouyancy? (wing doesn't work - ran out of inboard dil) ADV is connected to the same tin (generally) = a really bad experience if not arrested immediately. I don't think I would want to be fumbling for a DSMB... (thinking of the thousands of cold water divers going warm water diving on this theory) the less I have to think underwater the better - my weakness is my strength and all that (having figured it all out topside first is preferable).

Anyway, for me its a big wing and redundancy. Thinking I am better than I am until the shit hits the fan... not so good. Options don't necessarily = success.

All IMVH&personalO of course.

Paul (Leader of the I Am Stupid Underwater & Hopefully Thats What Will Keep Me Alive Party) Channing

jptaylor9 · 18th January 2007, 20:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by pchanning)

This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface.

A 22Kg wing is an option extra on the Inspo, unlike the Evo.

**jmurba** · 18th January 2007, 21:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by pchanning)

This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface. (ooff, just realised the pun - apologies

)
Most people I know have changed them out as they like to have positive bouyancy at the surface.

Figure a loop flood into that...

Apart from that I think Phillippe summed it up well - but I wonder about the "theoretical rationale"

How calm and clear headed... why have I ran out of bouyancy? (wing doesn't work - ran out of inboard dil) ADV is connected to the same tin (generally) = a really bad experience if not arrested immediately. I don't think I would want to be fumbling for a DSMB... (thinking of the thousands of cold water divers going warm water diving on this theory) the less I have to think underwater the better - my weakness is my strength and all that (having figured it all out topside first is preferable).

Anyway, for me its a big wing and redundancy. Thinking I am better than I am until the shit hits the fan... not so good. Options don't necessarily = success.

All IMVH&personalO of course.

Paul (Leader of the I Am Stupid Underwater & Hopefully Thats What Will Keep Me Alive Party) Channing

paul ok , but a big wing with small dill tanks to feed it is it the solution ?
do you mean a dedicated tanks to boyancy rescue ?
an other tank....how many tanks ar we goin to carry ?

bletso · 18th January 2007, 21:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

paul ok , but a big wing with small dill tanks to feed it is it the solution ?
do you mean a dedicated tanks to boyancy rescue ?
an other tank....how many tanks ar we goin to carry ?

Jean MI,

The size of the wings have nothing to do with what you need to counter your lead. What it takes will be the same regardless of the size of the wings.

Dale

Mary · 18th January 2007, 22:37

Just out of interest how many guys have their lead integral to their unit vs the ladies?

I know I certainly wouldn't be able to lift my kit around the place if I had integral lead yet this seems fairly common amongst male friends. I have a couple of 1kg on the cambands for the tanks for trim and my torch battery sits in the velcro pocket on the top but otherwise it's a case of release the crotch strap and then weight belt (shot so should slide easily). Thankfully never had to do it for real however did accidently forget to put it on one time (note to self if the waist-strap is suddenly too big there IS a reason - and it's not knocking off the jaffa cakes), I couldn't get off the surface for love nor money.

View Poll Results: can you drop your lead
yes a part of it	29	36.71%
yes all the lead	22	27.85%
I cant' drop the lead	28	35.44%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

18th January 2007, 11:47	#11 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Ivon) I think what some of the others meant was that they don't carry any extra lead. In fresh water I have 3 kg on the top of my unit for trim and a 3kg torch no lead to drop. I add another 3 kg in the sea but put this in my unit. If I had a unit flood or a suit flood and could not get up with my wing I would use my DSMB or a lift bag to reel my self up. Hi yvon, ha ok I understand, but I can't understand why your wing could not lift you in case of loop floading. If you are just balanced on slightly negative with you 3 kilos if your loop is drown you will loose only 6 or 7 liters/kg of boyancy that your wing could compensate or ligthen no ? regards jean mi
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18th January 2007, 12:57	#12 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 498	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) How about a response that says, "I don't carry any lead" ? Brian thats my case and its a little problem for some cave dives ( spring ) where its usual ( in France ) to drop some lead weights to need less air in the wing.
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18th January 2007, 14:09	#13 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T) thats my case and its a little problem for some cave dives ( spring ) where its usual ( in France ) to drop some lead weights to need less air in the wing. I feel in danger not to be able to drop some weigth, as somebody ever tried to dronwn the kloop top see what happends ....? I've heard that recent accident (i dont want to say any name) have been caused or partly caused by loss of boyancy. my wing is small, at surface sometime i have difficulties to float !!! and i have the strict mimimun amount of lead onn me (7 kilos with a dry suit)..... regards jean mi
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18th January 2007, 14:45	#14 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 647	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) second wing bladder I thought you already had a redundant bladder ready to be hooked on your inboard dil on your Dive Rite wing, don't you? The way I see it: to counteract the loss of buoyancy due to a flood, I have 2 possibilities: drop sources of negative buoyancy (all sources of weight/ballast: lead, light...) or compensate with redundant sources of positive buoyancy. No dropable weight for me. In case of total loop flood on my CK I'd be 12-13kg heavier: 4kg x2 (CLs) + approx 4kg to 5kg (scrub + hoses). my wing is 18kg/40lbs. I usually dive with an empty wing in normal condition so that would be a 5 to 6 kg reserve. For redundant lift: drysuit in the first place + primary SMB with 23kg/50lbs of lift capacity on a 50m reel + a closed circuit lift bag stored in the back plate with 35kg/80lbs of lift on a 50m spool. Mind you, this is my theoritical rational. I never had a total loop flood and never deliberately provoked one. Best Philippe
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18th January 2007, 15:00	#15 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) I thought you already had a redundant bladder ready to be hooked on your inboard dil on your Dive Rite wing, don't you? +++ dear phil yes i had, you have a god memory !!! but in fact both bladder was connected to the same tank... so redundancy was not fuul and in addition the dive rite wing was to big for my little 40m average air dil dives, so i installed a simple bladder 20l wing. i want to simplify to be more confortable. The way I see it: to counteract the loss of buoyancy due to a flood, I have 2 possibilities: drop sources of negative buoyancy (all sources of weight/ballast: lead, light...) or compensate with redundant sources of positive buoyancy. No dropable weight for me. In case of total loop flood on my CK I'd be 12-13kg heavier: 4kg x2 (CLs) + approx 4kg to 5kg (scrub + hoses). my wing is 18kg/40lbs. I usually dive with an empty wing in normal condition so that would be a 5 to 6 kg reserve. For redundant lift: drysuit in the first place + primary SMB with 23kg/50lbs of lift capacity on a 50m reel + a closed circuit lift bag stored in the back plate with 35kg/80lbs of lift on a 50m spool. Mind you, this is my theoritical rational. I never had a total loop flood and never deliberately provoked one. ++++well... i would like to avoid having to depend on a gas source to get me out of loss of boyancy generated by a loop floading... next time i change my sensor ( 1 month) i will drown my loop next to the rib anchor line and with stephen Grenfell to secure me , just to be sure of the effect.. and i will tell all. Best Philippe regards all the best jean michel Urbani
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18th January 2007, 19:55	#16 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Re: counter lung lead This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface. (ooff, just realised the pun - apologies ) Most people I know have changed them out as they like to have positive bouyancy at the surface. Figure a loop flood into that... Apart from that I think Phillippe summed it up well - but I wonder about the "theoretical rationale" How calm and clear headed... why have I ran out of bouyancy? (wing doesn't work - ran out of inboard dil) ADV is connected to the same tin (generally) = a really bad experience if not arrested immediately. I don't think I would want to be fumbling for a DSMB... (thinking of the thousands of cold water divers going warm water diving on this theory) the less I have to think underwater the better - my weakness is my strength and all that (having figured it all out topside first is preferable). Anyway, for me its a big wing and redundancy. Thinking I am better than I am until the shit hits the fan... not so good. Options don't necessarily = success. All IMVH&personalO of course. Paul (Leader of the I Am Stupid Underwater & Hopefully Thats What Will Keep Me Alive Party) Channing __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival. Last edited by pchanning : 18th January 2007 at 19:59.
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18th January 2007, 20:13	#17 (permalink)
jptaylor9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 316	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by pchanning) This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface. A 22Kg wing is an option extra on the Inspo, unlike the Evo.
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18th January 2007, 21:21	#18 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 920	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by pchanning) This is a funny one, as APD (for example) must have figured this out and they put 16kg wings on the Inspo. Yet 16kg for cold green water diving is far from inspiring at the surface. (ooff, just realised the pun - apologies ) Most people I know have changed them out as they like to have positive bouyancy at the surface. Figure a loop flood into that... Apart from that I think Phillippe summed it up well - but I wonder about the "theoretical rationale" How calm and clear headed... why have I ran out of bouyancy? (wing doesn't work - ran out of inboard dil) ADV is connected to the same tin (generally) = a really bad experience if not arrested immediately. I don't think I would want to be fumbling for a DSMB... (thinking of the thousands of cold water divers going warm water diving on this theory) the less I have to think underwater the better - my weakness is my strength and all that (having figured it all out topside first is preferable). Anyway, for me its a big wing and redundancy. Thinking I am better than I am until the shit hits the fan... not so good. Options don't necessarily = success. All IMVH&personalO of course. Paul (Leader of the I Am Stupid Underwater & Hopefully Thats What Will Keep Me Alive Party) Channing paul ok , but a big wing with small dill tanks to feed it is it the solution ? do you mean a dedicated tanks to boyancy rescue ? an other tank....how many tanks ar we goin to carry ?
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18th January 2007, 21:28	#19 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 263	Re: counter lung lead Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) paul ok , but a big wing with small dill tanks to feed it is it the solution ? do you mean a dedicated tanks to boyancy rescue ? an other tank....how many tanks ar we goin to carry ? Jean MI, The size of the wings have nothing to do with what you need to counter your lead. What it takes will be the same regardless of the size of the wings. Dale
(Online)

18th January 2007, 22:37	#20 (permalink)
Mary New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The sunny south west. UK Posts: 77	Re: counter lung lead Just out of interest how many guys have their lead integral to their unit vs the ladies? I know I certainly wouldn't be able to lift my kit around the place if I had integral lead yet this seems fairly common amongst male friends. I have a couple of 1kg on the cambands for the tanks for trim and my torch battery sits in the velcro pocket on the top but otherwise it's a case of release the crotch strap and then weight belt (shot so should slide easily). Thankfully never had to do it for real however did accidently forget to put it on one time (note to self if the waist-strap is suddenly too big there IS a reason - and it's not knocking off the jaffa cakes), I couldn't get off the surface for love nor money.
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