VR3 Computer opinions

dive2dive2000 · 7th January 2007, 03:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

As a full-deco computer I like it a lot. The theoretical tissue loading graph which can be displayed underwater is a BIG help if you're diving your own profiles yet using the computer as a guide for deco. It allows you to add however much conservatism you want to over the base "0" level and yet know what you're doing relative to baseline. There's no other computer currently on the market that makes this possible. I dive mine set to zero conservatism which gives me a "baseline" and then extend my stop profile to get the tissue graph where I'm comfortable, and have developed a good feel for what it needs to look like before I get out. Works for me and leaves me feeling great post-dive - what's not to like about that?

Hi Karl,

Wow that got my attention! Could you elaborate a little more on this feature? I dont understand how a graph can help you do deco

Genesis · 7th January 2007, 03:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Hi Karl,

Wow that got my attention! Could you elaborate a little more on this feature? I dont understand how a graph can help you do deco

Why not?

That's what you're doing when you run a profile on a computer topside. You're looking for a specific tissue loading profile before you deem it "safe" to exit the water.

The VR3 lets you see what its model is doing and where you are (according to the model) at all times, if you want. The tissue graph makes this possible, and as far as I know, its the only dive computer with that feature.

The "dynamic" view of how the model is perceiving your body's inert gas load is, IMHO, quite valuable underwater. You quickly learn what sorts of profiles produce what sort of (theoretical) tissue loads, and what behavior affects it - and how.

Have/do you dive a VR3?

dive2dive2000 · 7th January 2007, 04:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Why not?

That's what you're doing when you run a profile on a computer topside. You're looking for a specific tissue loading profile before you deem it "safe" to exit the water.

The VR3 lets you see what its model is doing and where you are (according to the model) at all times, if you want. The tissue graph makes this possible, and as far as I know, its the only dive computer with that feature.

The "dynamic" view of how the model is perceiving your body's inert gas load is, IMHO, quite valuable underwater. You quickly learn what sorts of profiles produce what sort of (theoretical) tissue loads, and what behavior affects it - and how.

Have/do you dive a VR3?

I know what a graph does and how to use one topside on a simulator or when running dive profiles

You said you did not like the computer because it was way to conservative(and I agree that's why I traded mine...), So how does a graph that is to conservative help you when running profiles

and how do you use it underwater?

I do deco from tables with a fixed bottom time, and a fixed run/stop time at various depths while ascending. How does a graph help you underwater is this info next to the graph? Please elaborate on your technique or if I am misunderstanding you please explain

Genesis · 7th January 2007, 06:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

I know what a graph does and how to use one topside on a simulator or when running dive profiles

You said you did not like the computer because it was way to conservative(and I agree that's why I traded mine...), So how does a graph that is to conservative help you when running profiles

and how do you use it underwater?

No, I said that the VPM algo in the computer is vastly too conservative. Thank God I found out before I popped for the "upgrade".

I don't dive it in VPM mode for that reason. I dive it in Bulhmann (well, its approximation anyway) mode set to zero conservatism.

Quote:

I do deco from tables with a fixed bottom time, and a fixed run/stop time at various depths while ascending. How does a graph help you underwater is this info next to the graph? Please elaborate on your technique or if I am misunderstanding you please explain

And you always have exact fixed bottom times and exact depths as planned? I didn't think so; neither do I.

What I did when I got my VR3 was dive the computer right to the edge of what it thinks is "no deco", surface on its schedule, then observe and log how I felt. Then I "backed off", using the tissue graph to guide me, until I felt great. This took me about a dozen dives in total to "calibrate" it to my personal physiology.

I then challenged that with a light decompression dive, to validate that I still feel great. Yep. Over a bit of time I worked my way up to being willing to trust what I had learned about the graph and how it relates to how I feel after I get out of the water on more serious dives.

That's really no different than how you approach using a new land-based computer package for the same purpose. When I first bought VPM/B I didn't immediately "trust" it for a big decompression dive without checking out how I felt after using it in far less serious exposures.

Today, I'm comfortable using the VR3 this way as my primary decompression tool. I still carry a backup bottom timer and a "quickie table" (just stop times from 10' on down) for anything with planned deco, because things DO break and having no depth gauge, timer or deco info with a nice obligation would suck. But you need the redundant bottom timer of some sort anyway, and the backup table is just a short sequence of numbers.

In the ocean (where I do nearly all of my deco diving) I generally try to keep runtimes to an hour or so for logistical reasons in most cases (I'm willing to go up around 90 minutes if I have great conditions and better-than-average surface support), so I wouldn't call the diving I'm doing with it today "extreme", but 30ish minutes of deco time is typically regarded as fairly significant and plenty to bend you good if you do it wrong or blow it off.

You can't do this padding tables, because exactly what that modification of a given schedule does on any given dive is not deteminable from your past experience (unless you do the EXACT SAME dive the second, third, Nth time) since the dive times and depths are always a bit different. Further, behavior matters - if you are somewhat slower (or have some sort of issue where you are momentarily above your target ascent rate, etc) there's no real way to accurately compensate for that on a table - but a computer can and does.

The interesting thing is that when I go pull the profile I actually performed after I am done and compare it against a VPM/B table post-dive, it matches quite closely. But - I can't compute that VPM table on the fly while in the water as my laptop isn't depth-rated, and the only VPM implementation currently available in a computer is the VR3s, which I refuse to use because its stupid-conservative.

In other words, what I've figured out how to do is get a profile that looks a lot like VPM/B, dynamically computed and with the proper amount of conservatism for me, while using the straight Buhlmann VR3, by using the tissue graph display.

The bottom line is that it works well for me. A "numeric/text" display computer simply can't give you the tools to perform this sort of shaping of the decompression curve in real-time; you need the tissue graph to do that.

***jradomski*** · 7th January 2007, 07:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by John, Northeast Scuba)

Hi Guys, we are deciding whether or not to bring VR3 into the shop along with the rest of the rebreather stuff. If possible please let me know what you think of the units. I would like honest opinions if you do not feel you want to post here please just email me at john@northeastscubasupply.com
We will not sell a product that does not have good customer service and I am really concerned about this as I have had no dealings with them.

Three things:
Ease of Use

Happiness with Unit

Most Important -- Customer Service and satisfaction for repairs, etc.

See ya John
Scuba diving lessons, scuba diving gear equipment, technical diving gear equipment, oms

I had a vr3 as backup computer until I sold it..I didn;t like the profiles it generated at all... a quick pyle stop or two then excessive deco in the shallows... I definately prefer a slower ascent..

I had the New stye (after change from brick) even before OMS at the time recived their units..

I had multiple computer lockups... I solved this with conductive grease..
Had all sorts of button issues including them popping out..

I had pressure sensor failures as well that would have required sending the unit back to the UK (thankfully I have securoty bits and knew how to clean out the sensor)

lbihler · 7th January 2007, 07:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by AndyP)

OK a slightly opposing opinion.

... The deco is longer than it really needs to be .....

Funny enough, I did not like at all the original deco model because it tends to bring me up in the shallows very fast which I do not like, even if it gives me the same total ascent time than my cochran.
What conservatism level / dive profile / setpoint do you use to find it gives you a longer deco than required ?

I live in Thailand and I've had a failure on the depth sensor. Delta P has been remarquably efficient, no paperwork (just the serail number), quick to send, quick to repair, in the end a lot better than I expected to be honest.

***Decodiver*** · 7th January 2007, 10:43

I use 2 Vr3s and have done so for years.

Great pieces of kit and Delta-P's customer service is first class.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Pat Coughlan · 7th January 2007, 11:42

Like Karl I was lucky I didnt stump the cash for the VPM upgrade, I managed to get a loan

of a colour screen VPM unit for a series of 85m dives and was dissapointed at the VPM deco obligation (way more than the bulhmann version I was diving) but the colour scren is excellent.

I also use the 4th option but have had nothing but trouble with the cables on my third one now due to leaks at the Fischer gland and the potted molex end(which ruined the cell)

Pat

Gobfish1 · 7th January 2007, 11:46

I use a Vr3s and have done so for years.
It has never let me down oc or ccr ,
Delta-P's customer service , I have never needed to call them ,.
so in my book customer service is v good

7th January 2007, 03:49	#21 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) As a full-deco computer I like it a lot. The theoretical tissue loading graph which can be displayed underwater is a BIG help if you're diving your own profiles yet using the computer as a guide for deco. It allows you to add however much conservatism you want to over the base "0" level and yet know what you're doing relative to baseline. There's no other computer currently on the market that makes this possible. I dive mine set to zero conservatism which gives me a "baseline" and then extend my stop profile to get the tissue graph where I'm comfortable, and have developed a good feel for what it needs to look like before I get out. Works for me and leaves me feeling great post-dive - what's not to like about that? Hi Karl, Wow that got my attention! Could you elaborate a little more on this feature? I dont understand how a graph can help you do deco __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
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7th January 2007, 03:54	#22 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Hi Karl, Wow that got my attention! Could you elaborate a little more on this feature? I dont understand how a graph can help you do deco Why not? That's what you're doing when you run a profile on a computer topside. You're looking for a specific tissue loading profile before you deem it "safe" to exit the water. The VR3 lets you see what its model is doing and where you are (according to the model) at all times, if you want. The tissue graph makes this possible, and as far as I know, its the only dive computer with that feature. The "dynamic" view of how the model is perceiving your body's inert gas load is, IMHO, quite valuable underwater. You quickly learn what sorts of profiles produce what sort of (theoretical) tissue loads, and what behavior affects it - and how. Have/do you dive a VR3? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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7th January 2007, 04:28	#23 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Why not? That's what you're doing when you run a profile on a computer topside. You're looking for a specific tissue loading profile before you deem it "safe" to exit the water. The VR3 lets you see what its model is doing and where you are (according to the model) at all times, if you want. The tissue graph makes this possible, and as far as I know, its the only dive computer with that feature. The "dynamic" view of how the model is perceiving your body's inert gas load is, IMHO, quite valuable underwater. You quickly learn what sorts of profiles produce what sort of (theoretical) tissue loads, and what behavior affects it - and how. Have/do you dive a VR3? I know what a graph does and how to use one topside on a simulator or when running dive profiles You said you did not like the computer because it was way to conservative(and I agree that's why I traded mine...), So how does a graph that is to conservative help you when running profiles and how do you use it underwater? I do deco from tables with a fixed bottom time, and a fixed run/stop time at various depths while ascending. How does a graph help you underwater is this info next to the graph? Please elaborate on your technique or if I am misunderstanding you please explain __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 06:27	#24 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) I know what a graph does and how to use one topside on a simulator or when running dive profiles You said you did not like the computer because it was way to conservative(and I agree that's why I traded mine...), So how does a graph that is to conservative help you when running profiles and how do you use it underwater? No, I said that the VPM algo in the computer is vastly too conservative. Thank God I found out before I popped for the "upgrade". I don't dive it in VPM mode for that reason. I dive it in Bulhmann (well, its approximation anyway) mode set to zero conservatism. Quote: I do deco from tables with a fixed bottom time, and a fixed run/stop time at various depths while ascending. How does a graph help you underwater is this info next to the graph? Please elaborate on your technique or if I am misunderstanding you please explain And you always have exact fixed bottom times and exact depths as planned? I didn't think so; neither do I. What I did when I got my VR3 was dive the computer right to the edge of what it thinks is "no deco", surface on its schedule, then observe and log how I felt. Then I "backed off", using the tissue graph to guide me, until I felt great. This took me about a dozen dives in total to "calibrate" it to my personal physiology. I then challenged that with a light decompression dive, to validate that I still feel great. Yep. Over a bit of time I worked my way up to being willing to trust what I had learned about the graph and how it relates to how I feel after I get out of the water on more serious dives. That's really no different than how you approach using a new land-based computer package for the same purpose. When I first bought VPM/B I didn't immediately "trust" it for a big decompression dive without checking out how I felt after using it in far less serious exposures. Today, I'm comfortable using the VR3 this way as my primary decompression tool. I still carry a backup bottom timer and a "quickie table" (just stop times from 10' on down) for anything with planned deco, because things DO break and having no depth gauge, timer or deco info with a nice obligation would suck. But you need the redundant bottom timer of some sort anyway, and the backup table is just a short sequence of numbers. In the ocean (where I do nearly all of my deco diving) I generally try to keep runtimes to an hour or so for logistical reasons in most cases (I'm willing to go up around 90 minutes if I have great conditions and better-than-average surface support), so I wouldn't call the diving I'm doing with it today "extreme", but 30ish minutes of deco time is typically regarded as fairly significant and plenty to bend you good if you do it wrong or blow it off. You can't do this padding tables, because exactly what that modification of a given schedule does on any given dive is not deteminable from your past experience (unless you do the EXACT SAME dive the second, third, Nth time) since the dive times and depths are always a bit different. Further, behavior matters - if you are somewhat slower (or have some sort of issue where you are momentarily above your target ascent rate, etc) there's no real way to accurately compensate for that on a table - but a computer can and does. The interesting thing is that when I go pull the profile I actually performed after I am done and compare it against a VPM/B table post-dive, it matches quite closely. But - I can't compute that VPM table on the fly while in the water as my laptop isn't depth-rated, and the only VPM implementation currently available in a computer is the VR3s, which I refuse to use because its stupid-conservative. In other words, what I've figured out how to do is get a profile that looks a lot like VPM/B, dynamically computed and with the proper amount of conservatism for me, while using the straight Buhlmann VR3, by using the tissue graph display. The bottom line is that it works well for me. A "numeric/text" display computer simply can't give you the tools to perform this sort of shaping of the decompression curve in real-time; you need the tissue graph to do that. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 07:31	#25 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by John, Northeast Scuba) Hi Guys, we are deciding whether or not to bring VR3 into the shop along with the rest of the rebreather stuff. If possible please let me know what you think of the units. I would like honest opinions if you do not feel you want to post here please just email me at john@northeastscubasupply.com We will not sell a product that does not have good customer service and I am really concerned about this as I have had no dealings with them. Three things: Ease of Use Happiness with Unit Most Important -- Customer Service and satisfaction for repairs, etc. See ya John Scuba diving lessons, scuba diving gear equipment, technical diving gear equipment, oms I had a vr3 as backup computer until I sold it..I didn;t like the profiles it generated at all... a quick pyle stop or two then excessive deco in the shallows... I definately prefer a slower ascent.. I had the New stye (after change from brick) even before OMS at the time recived their units.. I had multiple computer lockups... I solved this with conductive grease.. Had all sorts of button issues including them popping out.. I had pressure sensor failures as well that would have required sending the unit back to the UK (thankfully I have securoty bits and knew how to clean out the sensor) __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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7th January 2007, 07:37	#26 (permalink)
lbihler New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bangkok Posts: 56	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Quote: (Originally Posted by AndyP) OK a slightly opposing opinion. ... The deco is longer than it really needs to be ..... Funny enough, I did not like at all the original deco model because it tends to bring me up in the shallows very fast which I do not like, even if it gives me the same total ascent time than my cochran. What conservatism level / dive profile / setpoint do you use to find it gives you a longer deco than required ? I live in Thailand and I've had a failure on the depth sensor. Delta P has been remarquably efficient, no paperwork (just the serail number), quick to send, quick to repair, in the end a lot better than I expected to be honest. __________________ No Bubbles No Troubles ! Laurent Bihler - (http://www.tecevolution.com)
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7th January 2007, 10:43	#27 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,181	Re: VR3 Computer opinions I use 2 Vr3s and have done so for years. Great pieces of kit and Delta-P's customer service is first class. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions Last edited by Decodiver : 7th January 2007 at 13:23.
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7th January 2007, 11:42	#28 (permalink)
Pat Coughlan New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Ireland- County Mayo Posts: 87	Re: VR3 Computer opinions Like Karl I was lucky I didnt stump the cash for the VPM upgrade, I managed to get a loan of a colour screen VPM unit for a series of 85m dives and was dissapointed at the VPM deco obligation (way more than the bulhmann version I was diving) but the colour scren is excellent. I also use the 4th option but have had nothing but trouble with the cables on my third one now due to leaks at the Fischer gland and the potted molex end(which ruined the cell) Pat
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7th January 2007, 11:46	#29 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 363	Re: VR3 Computer opinions I use a Vr3s and have done so for years. It has never let me down oc or ccr , Delta-P's customer service , I have never needed to call them ,. so in my book customer service is v good __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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