Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC?

Gilles · 5th January 2007, 13:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I expect these things to fail. Just not all at the same time. The point of mCCR was not about it being safer than eCCR it was about the way you dive it. Conciously diving it and expecting things to go wrong. That and having the means to bail out makes my diving safer than in the just plunge in OC time with a single tank...

That comment has earned you a green blob!

Mary · 5th January 2007, 19:48

The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice).

***EBT*** · 5th January 2007, 20:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I expect these things to fail. Just not all at the same time. The point of mCCR was not about it being safer than eCCR it was about the way you dive it. Conciously diving it and expecting things to go wrong. That and having the means to bail out makes my diving safer than in the just plunge in OC time with a single tank...

Spot on

Dutchy · 5th January 2007, 21:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary)

The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice).

Lol.... Please define dangerous. If you define dangerous in terms of likelyhood that something goes wrong then it's paragliding I think (the broken ankle comes to mind). When you talk about it in terms of impact then it's CCR I fear. (O2 hit and subsequent drowning???)

Gilles · 5th January 2007, 23:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary)

The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice).

Both are a form of flight. Both keep you alive for a time in an enviroment evolution chose not to make us live in. Both are susceptible to mistakes. I'd say for all practical purposes, the risks are about the same.

Gilles · 6th January 2007, 00:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13)

Not exactely. I believe you are at less risk than an eCCR, but still more than with OC. You still have cells, scrubber, batteries and other stuff that can fail. It`s not only the electronics that make eCCR more risky than OC.

Safety is in the hands of the diver!!

So come on:

Robert

A properly managed eCCCR is safer than a properly managed mCCR. The reason this is so is because an SP controller is capable of maintaining SP more or less regardless of the O2 consumption, thus allowing greater task loading if/when needed (amongst other things).

Yeah yeah stats indicate otherwise, but read the premise "properly managed". mCCR's enforce better habits. These habits practised on eCCR is what is attempted to be encouraged!

There is so much "donkey-ness"

about manual flight of e-CCR. That is not a referral to anyone on this thread, but is to others!

Janos · 6th January 2007, 09:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary)

The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice).

Last summer I was halfway up a mountain when some random paragliding club offered me a lift down to bottom. I took the chance, and left my girlfriend to walk down.

It was brilliant. If I couldn't dive then I would consider taking up paragliding (although not at the moment as one dangerous and expensive sport is enough). However, back at work it turns out that my boss lost a couple of friends a few years back when their canopy collapsed. This is obviously just anecdotal evidence and not statistically significant, but my gut feel is that paragliding is more dangerous.

Mind you, the most dangerous sport in the UK (in terms of fatalities per participant) is actually fishing. Mainly because some people have too many beers and fall overboard, often when having a widdle. Horse riding comes in at number three.

On the OC / CC debate, I think that in the UK, OC is safer to 20m. CC is safer below 40m. Between 20m and 40m is a grey area.

Janos

CharlieT · 6th January 2007, 10:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Last summer I was halfway up a mountain when some random paragliding club offered me a lift down to bottom. I took the chance, and left my girlfriend to walk down.

It was brilliant. If I couldn't dive then I would consider taking up paragliding (although not at the moment as one dangerous and expensive sport is enough). However, back at work it turns out that my boss lost a couple of friends a few years back when their canopy collapsed. This is obviously just anecdotal evidence and not statistically significant, but my gut feel is that paragliding is more dangerous.

Mind you, the most dangerous sport in the UK (in terms of fatalities per participant) is actually fishing. Mainly because some people have too many beers and fall overboard, often when having a widdle. Horse riding comes in at number three.

On the OC / CC debate, I think that in the UK, OC is safer to 20m. CC is safer below 40m. Between 20m and 40m is a grey area.

Janos

I am sorry but I simply don't understand how anyone can say that generally a unit is safer than OC.

Providing you have properly serviced regs, what is there to go wrong on an OC dive between 10 and 85m (Flying Enterprise sort of depth)?

You are carrying enough deco gas to meet your planned diveplan so what's the problem with OC and how therefore is Rebreather diving "inherently less dangerous" than OC?

Rebreather divers, very experienced to very inexperienced, are dying because of the failure of their far more complicated diving equipment and it is irrelevant that sometimes those RB divers are causing their own deaths by poor procedures, poor pre-dive checks, poor maintenance etc.

The very nature of a unit requires Rebreather divers to have things like checklists, test sensor performance underwater etc. OC diving is turn on cylinder(s), take a few breaths, check pressure gauges and jump in.

Rebreather's require far more attention than OC, require you the RB diver to be a more educated and capable diver because if you aren't educated and capable a rebreather is far more likely to kill you than an OC system.

Rebreather's seem to regularly have small to not so small things go wrong with them. I won't make a list as there have been so many postings on this site about such instances.

React too slowly, react in the wrong way and hey presto, you're dead!

Oh I do understand that in some failures the Rebreather diver has plenty of time to sort out the problem but OC is so reliable the chances of anything ever going wrong is minuscule.

Last November I "retired" from running Aquanaut Dive Club UK and I have 10 years of data on OC diving and my own 800 OC dives to back up my views. In 10 years we had no DCI, injury or death from virtually exclusively OC diving. The club now has a growing number of Rebreather users and I fear this will change.

I love Rebreather diving and enjoy it far more than OC diving which I only do occasionally on holiday abroad but please let's not kid ourselves that RB diving is less dangerous than OC any more than a motorcycle is less dangerous than a car.

Yes, I agree that in certain specific instances on certain specific dives Rebreather diving might be safer but the thread says "Is RB diving inherently more dangerous than OC?"

How can anyone argue against this if they have read the many posts on fatalities and what brings them about? An ex-club member of ours died on a 24m dive on 14 May 2006 on a rebreather. An almost new unit so presumably not a sensor or mechanical failure but who knows with the complexity of rebreathers?

Charlie

Janos · 6th January 2007, 11:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

I am sorry but I simply don't understand how anyone can say that generally a unit is safer than OC.

Providing you have properly serviced regs, what is there to go wrong on an OC dive between 10 and 85m (Flying Enterprise sort of depth)?

Have a read of some of Dr. Mike's posts. He'd be dead if he was on OC!

The big advantage a rebreather gives you is time. Lost in a wreck? Tangled in line? I've got several hours to get myself out, instead of 10 minutes. Ok, I'll have a few hours of deco to do but I'll be alive.

Rebreathers do have additional risks. CO2 scares the crap out of me. But with OC the gauge drops on every breath.

But that's just my judgement of the risks. Yours may vary.

Janos

CharlieT · 6th January 2007, 11:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Have a read of some of Dr. Mike's posts. He'd be dead if he was on OC!

The big advantage a rebreather gives you is time. Lost in a wreck? Tangled in line? I've got several hours to get myself out, instead of 10 minutes. Ok, I'll have a few hours of deco to do but I'll be alive.

Rebreathers do have additional risks. CO2 scares the crap out of me. But with OC the gauge drops on every breath.

But that's just my judgement of the risks. Yours may vary.

Janos

Janos

I don't disagree that in the few instances you mention, Rebreather diving is generally safer. Of course also for dives like the very deep ones DrMike does.

Charlie

View Poll Results: Is Rebreather diving more dangerous than OC?
Yes, of course!	81	50.63%
No.	61	38.13%
Don't really know ...	17	10.63%
I don't have an opinion ...	1	0.63%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

5th January 2007, 13:01	#31 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I expect these things to fail. Just not all at the same time. The point of mCCR was not about it being safer than eCCR it was about the way you dive it. Conciously diving it and expecting things to go wrong. That and having the means to bail out makes my diving safer than in the just plunge in OC time with a single tank... That comment has earned you a green blob! __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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5th January 2007, 19:48	#32 (permalink)
Mary New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The sunny south west. UK Posts: 76	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice).
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5th January 2007, 20:33	#33 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,969	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I expect these things to fail. Just not all at the same time. The point of mCCR was not about it being safer than eCCR it was about the way you dive it. Conciously diving it and expecting things to go wrong. That and having the means to bail out makes my diving safer than in the just plunge in OC time with a single tank... Spot on __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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5th January 2007, 21:50	#34 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 766	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary) The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice). Lol.... Please define dangerous. If you define dangerous in terms of likelyhood that something goes wrong then it's paragliding I think (the broken ankle comes to mind). When you talk about it in terms of impact then it's CCR I fear. (O2 hit and subsequent drowning???) __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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5th January 2007, 23:49	#35 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary) The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice). Both are a form of flight. Both keep you alive for a time in an enviroment evolution chose not to make us live in. Both are susceptible to mistakes. I'd say for all practical purposes, the risks are about the same. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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6th January 2007, 00:00	#36 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13) Not exactely. I believe you are at less risk than an eCCR, but still more than with OC. You still have cells, scrubber, batteries and other stuff that can fail. It`s not only the electronics that make eCCR more risky than OC. Safety is in the hands of the diver!! So come on: Robert A properly managed eCCCR is safer than a properly managed mCCR. The reason this is so is because an SP controller is capable of maintaining SP more or less regardless of the O2 consumption, thus allowing greater task loading if/when needed (amongst other things). Yeah yeah stats indicate otherwise, but read the premise "properly managed". mCCR's enforce better habits. These habits practised on eCCR is what is attempted to be encouraged! There is so much "donkey-ness" about manual flight of e-CCR. That is not a referral to anyone on this thread, but is to others! __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
(Offline)

6th January 2007, 09:00	#37 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 598	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mary) The current argument in my family is which is more dangerous, diving CCR or paragliding (my sister's sport of choice). Last summer I was halfway up a mountain when some random paragliding club offered me a lift down to bottom. I took the chance, and left my girlfriend to walk down. It was brilliant. If I couldn't dive then I would consider taking up paragliding (although not at the moment as one dangerous and expensive sport is enough). However, back at work it turns out that my boss lost a couple of friends a few years back when their canopy collapsed. This is obviously just anecdotal evidence and not statistically significant, but my gut feel is that paragliding is more dangerous. Mind you, the most dangerous sport in the UK (in terms of fatalities per participant) is actually fishing. Mainly because some people have too many beers and fall overboard, often when having a widdle. Horse riding comes in at number three. On the OC / CC debate, I think that in the UK, OC is safer to 20m. CC is safer below 40m. Between 20m and 40m is a grey area. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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6th January 2007, 10:51	#38 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Last summer I was halfway up a mountain when some random paragliding club offered me a lift down to bottom. I took the chance, and left my girlfriend to walk down. It was brilliant. If I couldn't dive then I would consider taking up paragliding (although not at the moment as one dangerous and expensive sport is enough). However, back at work it turns out that my boss lost a couple of friends a few years back when their canopy collapsed. This is obviously just anecdotal evidence and not statistically significant, but my gut feel is that paragliding is more dangerous. Mind you, the most dangerous sport in the UK (in terms of fatalities per participant) is actually fishing. Mainly because some people have too many beers and fall overboard, often when having a widdle. Horse riding comes in at number three. On the OC / CC debate, I think that in the UK, OC is safer to 20m. CC is safer below 40m. Between 20m and 40m is a grey area. Janos I am sorry but I simply don't understand how anyone can say that generally a unit is safer than OC. Providing you have properly serviced regs, what is there to go wrong on an OC dive between 10 and 85m (Flying Enterprise sort of depth)? You are carrying enough deco gas to meet your planned diveplan so what's the problem with OC and how therefore is Rebreather diving "inherently less dangerous" than OC? Rebreather divers, very experienced to very inexperienced, are dying because of the failure of their far more complicated diving equipment and it is irrelevant that sometimes those RB divers are causing their own deaths by poor procedures, poor pre-dive checks, poor maintenance etc. The very nature of a unit requires Rebreather divers to have things like checklists, test sensor performance underwater etc. OC diving is turn on cylinder(s), take a few breaths, check pressure gauges and jump in. Rebreather's require far more attention than OC, require you the RB diver to be a more educated and capable diver because if you aren't educated and capable a rebreather is far more likely to kill you than an OC system. Rebreather's seem to regularly have small to not so small things go wrong with them. I won't make a list as there have been so many postings on this site about such instances. React too slowly, react in the wrong way and hey presto, you're dead! Oh I do understand that in some failures the Rebreather diver has plenty of time to sort out the problem but OC is so reliable the chances of anything ever going wrong is minuscule. Last November I "retired" from running Aquanaut Dive Club UK and I have 10 years of data on OC diving and my own 800 OC dives to back up my views. In 10 years we had no DCI, injury or death from virtually exclusively OC diving. The club now has a growing number of Rebreather users and I fear this will change. I love Rebreather diving and enjoy it far more than OC diving which I only do occasionally on holiday abroad but please let's not kid ourselves that RB diving is less dangerous than OC any more than a motorcycle is less dangerous than a car. Yes, I agree that in certain specific instances on certain specific dives Rebreather diving might be safer but the thread says "Is RB diving inherently more dangerous than OC?" How can anyone argue against this if they have read the many posts on fatalities and what brings them about? An ex-club member of ours died on a 24m dive on 14 May 2006 on a rebreather. An almost new unit so presumably not a sensor or mechanical failure but who knows with the complexity of rebreathers? Charlie
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6th January 2007, 11:24	#39 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 598	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) I am sorry but I simply don't understand how anyone can say that generally a unit is safer than OC. Providing you have properly serviced regs, what is there to go wrong on an OC dive between 10 and 85m (Flying Enterprise sort of depth)? Have a read of some of Dr. Mike's posts. He'd be dead if he was on OC! The big advantage a rebreather gives you is time. Lost in a wreck? Tangled in line? I've got several hours to get myself out, instead of 10 minutes. Ok, I'll have a few hours of deco to do but I'll be alive. Rebreathers do have additional risks. CO2 scares the crap out of me. But with OC the gauge drops on every breath. But that's just my judgement of the risks. Yours may vary. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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6th January 2007, 11:32	#40 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Is Rebreather diving inherently more dangerous than OC? Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Have a read of some of Dr. Mike's posts. He'd be dead if he was on OC! The big advantage a rebreather gives you is time. Lost in a wreck? Tangled in line? I've got several hours to get myself out, instead of 10 minutes. Ok, I'll have a few hours of deco to do but I'll be alive. Rebreathers do have additional risks. CO2 scares the crap out of me. But with OC the gauge drops on every breath. But that's just my judgement of the risks. Yours may vary. Janos Janos I don't disagree that in the few instances you mention, Rebreather diving is generally safer. Of course also for dives like the very deep ones DrMike does. Charlie
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