Pre-Poll Topics Wanted

divetheworld

I would have to agree with Phi, OC bail to the surface has the most potential for catastrophic results.
Followed by a close second of buddies bailing with insufficient gas and coming to you for help........waiting for the CDiff bend in water......


Although I did dismantle the Dil side of my rig once underwater when a seal went. Yes, I carry tools......

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RonMicjan

Actually Phi has it right on, full OC bail is a quite difficult task. I might suggest to everyone tuned in that the next time you are out diving, on your last dive for the day, run a full bail from the bottom, keep your buddy handy too. I think you will be suprised at how it goes.

sorry for the hijack howard, we are just supposed to be suggesting topics here, not going into fine detail.

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Joe

Again, not to be argumentative and I do not doubt that what you say is true but what is so difficult about it?

You go OC and basically the only difference is that you need to pay attention to expanding CL's and your BC on ascent. If diving dry you keep the valve open and the suit basically takes care of itself. You get to 70 feet and go on your 50% and do your deco. And yes, I have tried it.....

divetheworld

CO2 hit at 70m+ .........
You have a VR3...........
Your not as clever at planning as you think you are.......


Fill in the gaps yourself.

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Joe

Huh?

I hope you are not suggesting deliberately inducing a CO2 hit to see if you could handle it. The idea is to get off the loop before it becomes a problem.

Don't / won't dive a VR3, but what does that have to do with anything?

It isn't about clever. It's about practice and maintaining skills. The question was about doing a bail out to OC and then doing an ascent. If you can't do it you need to practice till you can and if you aren't willing to put the effort into mastering it take up golf. You'll live a lot longer.

decoweenie

Joe,

I do not mind at all if/when people disagree with one another as long as everyone could remain logical and discuss things thru (without typing pages and pages of text, of course).

That's the most beneficial way to learn...

On this issue, it is just an opinion and the reason has to do more with observations of experienced divers whom I have met rather than students.

I do screen my students well because I don't have to teach to put food on table, I do because I enjoy being with the people in my courses. And I believe they have chosen me just as carefully (I think ). Therefore, we are more in tune with the basic safety concept and hardly ever disagree on the safety aspect. If we ever do, it is because of something the students have not been exposed to. After a healthy and logical debate, we are all usually pretty much in agreement.

As mentioned, on the other hand, the experienced divers who I have dived with are some of the most complacent individuals I have known. It is granted that the diving condition around UAE is easier than most, thus probably the reason for this complacency to grow.

Plus the other reason is the isolation which insulate these individuals from exposure to more safe diving practices.

I would say that the basic step of switching to OC-bail-out is very simple, and should be very easy to accomplish. However, if the diver doesn't have the adequate amount of OC-bail-out gas, it would be extremenly difficult. The argument put forward was "the unit is very durable and I have never had to bail out before", thus the reason for not bring adequate gas (i.e. semi-alpinist).

Semi-alpinist is like "half-pregnant". Either it is enough or not enough, IMHO...

When a stage is brought along, it is usually the wrong gas and/or not full pressure. Again, same argument.

Lastly, if you have ever experienced CO2 break-thru and/or over-breathing the unit, you will understand the difficulty in a simple task of holding your breath long enough to remove the DSV and replace it with a OC reg. Most people who have never experienced it will think it is an exaggeration...

It is a simple task that everyone does in class, but it should also be done (controlled) under stress to re-enforce the engram so it could be done in real life when it is life-or-death.

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"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

Joe

Phi:

I agree with all you are saying 100%

I have been diving a *long* time and I constantly work at it. I never think that there is no room for improvement and I never think I can't learn something new. I learn things from everyone I dive with on every dive and my approach is that everything will fail sooner or later so I just assume total equipment failure on every dive.

What I find incredulous is that people do the things that you say.....not that I don't believe you, because I do. I just can't fathom beginning a dive with inadequate bail out (too little is as good as none unless you happen to be real lucky) and I can't imagine doing serious or semi serious dives knowing your skills are not up to snuff. Bailing to the surface OC is basic stuff and should not be an issue. If it is, you are diving beyond your abilities and will soon become a statistic if you do not correct it.

WRT CO2, I have never experienced loop breakthrough and I have never overbreathed the loop because I am very cognizant of that sort of thing. Of course I am not foolish enough to think it can't happen and I certainly know the insidious nature of CO2 from my OC experience, especially from the deep air days. It did once get a taste of hypoxia so I know what you are talking about. You simply can't function. Your brain says move your hand and your hand doesn't listen. But correct me if I am wrong here, the only viable solution is to avoid CO2 and get off the loop as soon as you suspect it because if you wait a little longer you might not be able to function.

I learned years ago that it is better to stay home than to dive with the wrong people. Everyone I dive with is like minded with respect to safety and
those who do not play by the rules don't get invited to come back because when there is an incident you are not going to watch them die. You are going to assist them and place yourself in danger. I will gladly jeapordize myself to help someone when the situation is unavoidable but do not want to place myself in jeapordy courtesy of someone elses complacency or stupidity when by simply saying no I can avoid it.

I think we are in agreement here. It is just that you have witnessed more complacency than I have.....

Thanks for an interesting reply.

Joe

decoweenie

Those are the EXACT words that my wife tells me whenever I go home after a bad week-end dive. Then she promptly reminds me that we have a lovely son to bring up...

However, we don't always have the luxury of chosing the right people to dive with unless we want to limit the amount of diving severely. What to do...

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"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

dive2dive2000

Hi Joe,

I would have to agree with Phil and Ron. I had just finished a 180' dive 30min BT when an OC diver behind me who I did not see (so thought his exhale bubbles were my kit leaking) and a tanker passing over head (did not know that while under water but it is a very strange and loud sound) so boom switch to OC bail out no problem start shutting dn dil and O2. At this time OC diver thinks I am in trouble comes in front of me and waits while I go through my check list. When I realized my kit was fine went back on loop ascended and finished dive on loop. Yes all skills were done in order and a timely fashion but I was stressed; The thought of having to finish on OC or might have to finish on OC and the dive going from fun mode to survival mode made for a very intense not fun at all finish There are a lot more things to consider than proficiency in skills while CCR diving

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Safe Diving,
Martin

Joe

Hi Martin:

I must comment that you successfully managed your situation and now you are a better diver for it. The next time that happens you will have the knowledge that you can do what needs to be done because you have done it before.

I try to test myself or perfect a skill on every dive. I do it even with stuff that I know I can do in my sleep. It doesn't need to be a big deal. Maybe dedicate a few minutes during deco to passing bottles back and forth or getting off the loop, deploying a 2nd stage for OC and going back on the loop.

I think what I said was misconstrued. I was not trying to imply a cavelier attitude but rather that we all need to be proficient and confident with these skills and can't imagine someone doing a dive they were not sure they could successfully bail out from. If you continuously work at it, this stuff is easy. If you do not, I agree that you will have trouble.

Thanks.

Joe