Hard off switch on the Hammer Head

silent running · 1st November 2006, 04:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

There is a good reason.. surface swims... If you are in the water on the loop doing a surface swim you dont want the unit switching off.. I definately dont want the po2 dropping because the unit shut off, since the loop volume will decrease may become insufficient, also if it doesnt (get to the pont you cant take a breathllike with an ADv) you run the risk if the po2 dropping too far (especially with an ADV and hypoxic diluent) before the next "wake up" interval is reached..

The unit knows what depth it's at, right? Why not have a hard off and an auto low SP-say .7-when the unit's on and above 15ft? Doesn't the HH have an auto SP switch? I would think that it would, being such a full featured unit. Then unit is on not struggling to maintain high SP and using up a lot of power during a surface swim. I still don't see the value of a wet switch on any unit. If it's meant as an idiot proofing feature, it's really out smarted itself in the HH, causing a much bigger problem in the battery drain during transit/spray...

PCDiver · 1st November 2006, 05:49

It would be useful if Kevin could contribute to this discussion to clarify his standpoint.

Mark Chase · 1st November 2006, 07:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Wasn't that the cause of the Cis fatality in UK ?

I understand the concept but i cant help thinking that I have a secondary hand set thats flashing my HUD and vibrating the DIVA whilst rattling my teeth fillings out and I would figure out the problem before it became serious.

Isn't that the whole point of the second hand set, to warn that the primary has failed and provide a passive PP02 readout for manually running the unit?
OK so the red flashing HUD is not that clear in sunlight situations but the DIVA should be doing its job then.

I have looked at ways of fixing it mechanically. I still don't like the idea of switching off the 02 feed. The hoses will depressurize and i could run the risk of hose failure on deep dives.

One idea I had was to build a system where i could switch the feed to the solenoid to diluent.

Custom manifold with dill feed and 02 feed to a gas switching block and back up to the solenoid. Then a second 02 hose to the manual inject button.
So I can disconnect feed to the solenoid but have the system pressurized with dill. O2 is still inboard and feeds the manual inject button.

Constant reboots then just fire in dill which shouldn't be a big problem.

ATB

Mark Chase

decoweenie · 1st November 2006, 07:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Custom manifold with dill feed and 02 feed to a gas switching block and back up to the solenoid...

If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way...

Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another.

**Steve** · 1st November 2006, 08:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way...

Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another.

There is an easier solution

decoweenie · 1st November 2006, 08:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

There is an easier solution

I know better than to ask...

Mark Chase · 1st November 2006, 08:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way...

Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another.

Thats exactly what i need. Thanks.

ATB

Mark Chase

***jradomski*** · 1st November 2006, 12:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Wasn't that the cause of the Cis fatality in UK ?

there was one with this type of cause, but not sure exactly where it was..

Scubascooby · 1st November 2006, 12:39

This is an intersting discussion. I own a Classic KISS so I can only comment from a techinical viewpoint.

IMO firing the solenoid in a low battery situation and so killing the controller is very undersirable since it leaves you without control and probably no injection either.

I am not sure why the solenoid is set to fire at boot-up, part of the test sequence ? Is it really necessary ? Maybe the simple thing would be to bleep and ask the user if they would like to fire the solenoid ? If the chooses "No" then it goes to the menu and allows them to switch the solenoid "off" or to a low set-point.

If the controller has died and rebooted then the elapsed time may have been enough to cause a drop in ppO2 requiring an injection in any case to maintain setpoint but is it likely that they are going hypoxic ? That's a double failure.

I like the suuggestion of using a high drain battery for the solenoid and a long life battery for the controller.

***jradomski*** · 1st November 2006, 14:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Scubascooby)

This is an intersting discussion. I own a Classic KISS so I can only comment from a techinical viewpoint.

IMO firing the solenoid in a low battery situation and so killing the controller is very undersirable since it leaves you without control and probably no injection either.

I am not sure why the solenoid is set to fire at boot-up, part of the test sequence ? Is it really necessary ? Maybe the simple thing would be to bleep and ask the user if they would like to fire the solenoid ? If the chooses "No" then it goes to the menu and allows them to switch the solenoid "off" or to a low set-point.

If the controller has died and rebooted then the elapsed time may have been enough to cause a drop in ppO2 requiring an injection in any case to maintain setpoint but is it likely that they are going hypoxic ? That's a double failure.

I like the suuggestion of using a high drain battery for the solenoid and a long life battery for the controller.

Using seperate batteries is not really necessary, there are alternate solutions.. As kevin and a few other people know, I have been developing and trying my own contollers for several years.. Overall I like the HH and dive it.. Eventually I will switch to my own controller (which will never be fror sale).. I know my electronics, but my mechanical engineering skills have much to be desired..

My current design uses 2 batteries per "handset'.. the primary in each is a RECHARGABLE li-ion, the backup is a li-socl2 cell (although an ordinary aa would work).. I have a sophisticated battery monitoring/control system, that constantly monitors the power sources and switches to the backup should the primary be to weak or glitch.. once in the backup, there is an indication... from this point on, it would run on this cell unless the primary recovers.. In this type of arrangement alot of the limits genesis and myself were debating aren;t really necessary, since you really need a double failure now which is much less likely..

My design could never really be a commercial product (unless it was sold in the price range of the CIS) since it would be too costly to manufacture plus its getting quite large (the ps alone is about the size of the entire HH ckt board!) even using the smallest surface mount components.. Its quite quickly becomming a Brick in size (but this gives me room for a much larger display)..

1st November 2006, 04:59	#51 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,814	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) There is a good reason.. surface swims... If you are in the water on the loop doing a surface swim you dont want the unit switching off.. I definately dont want the po2 dropping because the unit shut off, since the loop volume will decrease may become insufficient, also if it doesnt (get to the pont you cant take a breathllike with an ADv) you run the risk if the po2 dropping too far (especially with an ADV and hypoxic diluent) before the next "wake up" interval is reached.. The unit knows what depth it's at, right? Why not have a hard off and an auto low SP-say .7-when the unit's on and above 15ft? Doesn't the HH have an auto SP switch? I would think that it would, being such a full featured unit. Then unit is on not struggling to maintain high SP and using up a lot of power during a surface swim. I still don't see the value of a wet switch on any unit. If it's meant as an idiot proofing feature, it's really out smarted itself in the HH, causing a much bigger problem in the battery drain during transit/spray...
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1st November 2006, 05:49	#52 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 938	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head It would be useful if Kevin could contribute to this discussion to clarify his standpoint.
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1st November 2006, 07:34	#53 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Wasn't that the cause of the Cis fatality in UK ? I understand the concept but i cant help thinking that I have a secondary hand set thats flashing my HUD and vibrating the DIVA whilst rattling my teeth fillings out and I would figure out the problem before it became serious. Isn't that the whole point of the second hand set, to warn that the primary has failed and provide a passive PP02 readout for manually running the unit? OK so the red flashing HUD is not that clear in sunlight situations but the DIVA should be doing its job then. I have looked at ways of fixing it mechanically. I still don't like the idea of switching off the 02 feed. The hoses will depressurize and i could run the risk of hose failure on deep dives. One idea I had was to build a system where i could switch the feed to the solenoid to diluent. Custom manifold with dill feed and 02 feed to a gas switching block and back up to the solenoid. Then a second 02 hose to the manual inject button. So I can disconnect feed to the solenoid but have the system pressurized with dill. O2 is still inboard and feeds the manual inject button. Constant reboots then just fire in dill which shouldn't be a big problem. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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1st November 2006, 07:39	#54 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Custom manifold with dill feed and 02 feed to a gas switching block and back up to the solenoid... If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way... Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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1st November 2006, 08:05	#55 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,100	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way... Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another. There is an easier solution __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
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1st November 2006, 08:10	#56 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) There is an easier solution I know better than to ask... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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1st November 2006, 08:48	#57 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If that is what you want to do, here is an easier way... Use THIS device to connect by diluent and O2 to the solenoid lid inlet. A simple slide will switch one gas for another. Thats exactly what i need. Thanks. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

1st November 2006, 12:07	#58 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,896	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Wasn't that the cause of the Cis fatality in UK ? there was one with this type of cause, but not sure exactly where it was.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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1st November 2006, 12:39	#59 (permalink)
Scubascooby Better Off Out of the EU Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Great Britain Posts: 367	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head This is an intersting discussion. I own a Classic KISS so I can only comment from a techinical viewpoint. IMO firing the solenoid in a low battery situation and so killing the controller is very undersirable since it leaves you without control and probably no injection either. I am not sure why the solenoid is set to fire at boot-up, part of the test sequence ? Is it really necessary ? Maybe the simple thing would be to bleep and ask the user if they would like to fire the solenoid ? If the chooses "No" then it goes to the menu and allows them to switch the solenoid "off" or to a low set-point. If the controller has died and rebooted then the elapsed time may have been enough to cause a drop in ppO2 requiring an injection in any case to maintain setpoint but is it likely that they are going hypoxic ? That's a double failure. I like the suuggestion of using a high drain battery for the solenoid and a long life battery for the controller. __________________ "dove" is NOT the past tense of "dive" Better off OUT of the EU !
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1st November 2006, 14:21	#60 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,896	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Scubascooby) This is an intersting discussion. I own a Classic KISS so I can only comment from a techinical viewpoint. IMO firing the solenoid in a low battery situation and so killing the controller is very undersirable since it leaves you without control and probably no injection either. I am not sure why the solenoid is set to fire at boot-up, part of the test sequence ? Is it really necessary ? Maybe the simple thing would be to bleep and ask the user if they would like to fire the solenoid ? If the chooses "No" then it goes to the menu and allows them to switch the solenoid "off" or to a low set-point. If the controller has died and rebooted then the elapsed time may have been enough to cause a drop in ppO2 requiring an injection in any case to maintain setpoint but is it likely that they are going hypoxic ? That's a double failure. I like the suuggestion of using a high drain battery for the solenoid and a long life battery for the controller. Using seperate batteries is not really necessary, there are alternate solutions.. As kevin and a few other people know, I have been developing and trying my own contollers for several years.. Overall I like the HH and dive it.. Eventually I will switch to my own controller (which will never be fror sale).. I know my electronics, but my mechanical engineering skills have much to be desired.. My current design uses 2 batteries per "handset'.. the primary in each is a RECHARGABLE li-ion, the backup is a li-socl2 cell (although an ordinary aa would work).. I have a sophisticated battery monitoring/control system, that constantly monitors the power sources and switches to the backup should the primary be to weak or glitch.. once in the backup, there is an indication... from this point on, it would run on this cell unless the primary recovers.. In this type of arrangement alot of the limits genesis and myself were debating aren;t really necessary, since you really need a double failure now which is much less likely.. My design could never really be a commercial product (unless it was sold in the price range of the CIS) since it would be too costly to manufacture plus its getting quite large (the ps alone is about the size of the entire HH ckt board!) even using the smallest surface mount components.. Its quite quickly becomming a Brick in size (but this gives me room for a much larger display).. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 1st November 2006 at 14:25.
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