Hard off switch on the Hammer Head

sensor330 · 31st October 2006, 00:52

The bottom line here is there is really no such thing as a perfect electronic system. Every unit has it problems:

KISS displays had some moisture problems;
Classic YBOD moisture, magnet, and cracked handset problems;
Vision display problems, SI problems, and probably more I don't know about
Boris don't know enough about them
Meg had a few bugs with a few versions of their electronics;

Maybe there should be a forum created where all this geek (no offence to anybody) stuff can be discussed because I for one don't understand what anyone is talking about once it starts. This isn't the first thread that has been hijacked with geek (can't think of a better term for it) stuff. Anyways it easy for people to say I would of done this or that but Kevin has been in this business while Rebreather diving was in its infancy and the fact he's still in business says a lot as I'm sure its not a easy one. Although its not perfect I think its still a excellent controller.

Scott

sensor330 · 31st October 2006, 01:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

I don't think so. The issue was a "hard power off" and the reason it was requested was the potential problem with the primary deciding to go into an infinite reboot/injection loop when the power was low, which screws you hard even if the secondary handset is perfectly functional.

I'm pointing out the ways in which the "reboot/inject" cycle could be avoided in the first place, which would allow the unit to adhere to the desired behavior (that is, "its never off" due to the desire to provide an "automatic parchute") yet not cause the problems that people requesting the "hard off" option are using as justification for the desired option.

Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon.

Genesis · 31st October 2006, 01:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon.

That's true, but perhaps Kevin can be persuaded to implement what should be a simple software fix to this particular problem.

That is, if a boot happens and the unit's wet switches are closed OR the depth sensor shows its underwater, do not attempt to fire the solenoid as part of the startup sequence.

If he can detect the brownout reboot that's even better (and is cause for an alarm) but absent that the immediate problem can be solved with what has to be a simple code change.

decoweenie · 31st October 2006, 05:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Maybe there should be a forum created where all this geek (no offence to anybody) stuff can be discussed because I for one don't understand what anyone is talking about once it starts...

I second the suggestion.

And I even volunteer to moderate it. As soon as I understand a single post from anyone in the Rebreather-Geek Forum, he is outtathere...

jptaylor9 · 31st October 2006, 07:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

...immediate problem can be solved with what has to be a simple code change.

You sound like my manager

Mark Chase · 31st October 2006, 07:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor)

Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon.

I am not disappointed with the development of the thread. Being an ex engineer who worked mainly with 2lb lump hammers and bastard files, I like a big solid OFF switch. It suits my mechanical mind. You push it, it goes click and physically breaks contact QED it works

However I begrudgingly admit the delicacy of the reprogramming fix is not only a valid answer but infinitely more viable for Kevin who wont have to re-engineer the whole hand set case just to fit a switch. Re programing a chip sounds cost effective.

Whilst i don't understand a word of any programing past "if not then go Jneg Jzero" (wow 1978 and i still remember that

) I know Kevin reads this stuff on Rebreather World and it might ring bells with him.

THAT is my cunning plan

ATB

Mark Chase

silent running · 31st October 2006, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I am not disappointed with the development of the thread. Being an ex engineer who worked mainly with 2lb lump hammers and bastard files, I like a big solid OFF switch. It suits my mechanical mind. You push it, it goes click and physically breaks contact QED it works

However I begrudgingly admit the delicacy of the reprogramming fix is not only a valid answer but infinitely more viable for Kevin who wont have to re-engineer the whole hand set case just to fit a switch. Re programing a chip sounds cost effective.

Whilst i don't understand a word of any programing past "if not then go Jneg Jzero" (wow 1978 and i still remember that

) I know Kevin reads this stuff on Rebreather World and it might ring bells with him.

THAT is my cunning plan

ATB

Mark Chase

Hi Mark, I think the hard OFF switch is always useful, especially if the unit is an integrated deco model-many additional fail modes. But it's only useful if you have a way to know your PO2 without power. KISS ECCR...

Mark Chase · 31st October 2006, 08:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Mark, I think the hard OFF switch is always useful, especially if the unit is an integrated deco model-many additional fail modes. But it's only useful if you have a way to know your PO2 without power. KISS ECCR...

There is a second display with independent power source and in my case there will be a third display on all three cells via the Shear water deco computer.

HH Deco is on the master only. Seeing as the master is the one with the potential power failure this seems an odd choice. Once the master fails you lose all deco info. As a result having an independent in line deco computer is necessary. Unless you like tables.

I just spent about £800 on a Sherewater to do this and now i am trying to figure out where the hell to mount the brick. So you would have thought it better to put decompression on both hand sets then this would avoid the need for a back up computer. Even as an extra cost option it makes sense. Matching deco algorithms, both with in line deco information and reduced clutter.

ATB

Mark Chase

***jradomski*** · 31st October 2006, 12:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

There is a second display with independent power source and in my case there will be a third display on all three cells via the Shear water deco computer.

HH Deco is on the master only. Seeing as the master is the one with the potential power failure this seems an odd choice. Once the master fails you lose all deco info. As a result having an independent in line deco computer is necessary. Unless you like tables.

I just spent about £800 on a Sherewater to do this and now i am trying to figure out where the hell to mount the brick. So you would have thought it better to put decompression on both hand sets then this would avoid the need for a back up computer. Even as an extra cost option it makes sense. Matching deco algorithms, both with in line deco information and reduced clutter.

ATB

Mark Chase

personally, I think a deco option WILL become available sometime in the future for the secondary as an upgrade (the pressure sensor is already there).. I know I wount chose the route... I like the fast response of the secondary.. When in classic mode its a true po2 display with very little damping.. Once you start to integrate deco, you slow the response time.. as dives start to get big you can REALLY start to impact responsiveness.. Having to do "test" ascents evertime you want to calculate a TTS takes alot of time.. Considering that all these devices want to use as little power as possible, they are generally run at the slowest clock frequency they can to save power....

I remember talking to Gene about the explorer, until he put in a few tricks his TTS was taking nearly a minute for big dives... I know I have done dives on the HH that the TTS calc took 30-45 seconds, so by the time it actually displayed the TTS it was already wrong! On some deep stuff I have seen deco jump over 30 minutes between TTS calculations..

Genesis · 31st October 2006, 13:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

personally, I think a deco option WILL become available sometime in the future for the secondary as an upgrade (the pressure sensor is already there).. I know I wount chose the route... I like the fast response of the secondary.. When in classic mode its a true po2 display with very little damping.. Once you start to integrate deco, you slow the response time.. as dives start to get big you can REALLY start to impact responsiveness..

Uh, why would that be the case for the PO2 displays? No multitasking executive (or at least multiple threads?) in this thing?

31st October 2006, 00:52	#21 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 585	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head The bottom line here is there is really no such thing as a perfect electronic system. Every unit has it problems: KISS displays had some moisture problems; Classic YBOD moisture, magnet, and cracked handset problems; Vision display problems, SI problems, and probably more I don't know about Boris don't know enough about them Meg had a few bugs with a few versions of their electronics; Maybe there should be a forum created where all this geek (no offence to anybody) stuff can be discussed because I for one don't understand what anyone is talking about once it starts. This isn't the first thread that has been hijacked with geek (can't think of a better term for it) stuff. Anyways it easy for people to say I would of done this or that but Kevin has been in this business while Rebreather diving was in its infancy and the fact he's still in business says a lot as I'm sure its not a easy one. Although its not perfect I think its still a excellent controller. Scott
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 01:02	#22 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 585	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) I don't think so. The issue was a "hard power off" and the reason it was requested was the potential problem with the primary deciding to go into an infinite reboot/injection loop when the power was low, which screws you hard even if the secondary handset is perfectly functional. I'm pointing out the ways in which the "reboot/inject" cycle could be avoided in the first place, which would allow the unit to adhere to the desired behavior (that is, "its never off" due to the desire to provide an "automatic parchute") yet not cause the problems that people requesting the "hard off" option are using as justification for the desired option. Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon.
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 01:19	#23 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,397	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon. That's true, but perhaps Kevin can be persuaded to implement what should be a simple software fix to this particular problem. That is, if a boot happens and the unit's wet switches are closed OR the depth sensor shows its underwater, do not attempt to fire the solenoid as part of the startup sequence. If he can detect the brownout reboot that's even better (and is cause for an alarm) but absent that the immediate problem can be solved with what has to be a simple code change. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 05:11	#24 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Maybe there should be a forum created where all this geek (no offence to anybody) stuff can be discussed because I for one don't understand what anyone is talking about once it starts... I second the suggestion. And I even volunteer to moderate it. As soon as I understand a single post from anyone in the Rebreather-Geek Forum, he is outtathere... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 07:26	#25 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 318	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) ...immediate problem can be solved with what has to be a simple code change. You sound like my manager
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 07:42	#26 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor) Its pretty obvious the way I interpreted the first thread is different your interpretation. I don't think Mark is going to start ripping apart his HH and start reprogramming it anytime soon. I am not disappointed with the development of the thread. Being an ex engineer who worked mainly with 2lb lump hammers and bastard files, I like a big solid OFF switch. It suits my mechanical mind. You push it, it goes click and physically breaks contact QED it works However I begrudgingly admit the delicacy of the reprogramming fix is not only a valid answer but infinitely more viable for Kevin who wont have to re-engineer the whole hand set case just to fit a switch. Re programing a chip sounds cost effective. Whilst i don't understand a word of any programing past "if not then go Jneg Jzero" (wow 1978 and i still remember that ) I know Kevin reads this stuff on Rebreather World and it might ring bells with him. THAT is my cunning plan ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

31st October 2006, 07:56	#27 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I am not disappointed with the development of the thread. Being an ex engineer who worked mainly with 2lb lump hammers and bastard files, I like a big solid OFF switch. It suits my mechanical mind. You push it, it goes click and physically breaks contact QED it works However I begrudgingly admit the delicacy of the reprogramming fix is not only a valid answer but infinitely more viable for Kevin who wont have to re-engineer the whole hand set case just to fit a switch. Re programing a chip sounds cost effective. Whilst i don't understand a word of any programing past "if not then go Jneg Jzero" (wow 1978 and i still remember that ) I know Kevin reads this stuff on Rebreather World and it might ring bells with him. THAT is my cunning plan ATB Mark Chase Hi Mark, I think the hard OFF switch is always useful, especially if the unit is an integrated deco model-many additional fail modes. But it's only useful if you have a way to know your PO2 without power. KISS ECCR...
(Online)

31st October 2006, 08:28	#28 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Mark, I think the hard OFF switch is always useful, especially if the unit is an integrated deco model-many additional fail modes. But it's only useful if you have a way to know your PO2 without power. KISS ECCR... There is a second display with independent power source and in my case there will be a third display on all three cells via the Shear water deco computer. HH Deco is on the master only. Seeing as the master is the one with the potential power failure this seems an odd choice. Once the master fails you lose all deco info. As a result having an independent in line deco computer is necessary. Unless you like tables. I just spent about £800 on a Sherewater to do this and now i am trying to figure out where the hell to mount the brick. So you would have thought it better to put decompression on both hand sets then this would avoid the need for a back up computer. Even as an extra cost option it makes sense. Matching deco algorithms, both with in line deco information and reduced clutter. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

31st October 2006, 12:24	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,011	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) There is a second display with independent power source and in my case there will be a third display on all three cells via the Shear water deco computer. HH Deco is on the master only. Seeing as the master is the one with the potential power failure this seems an odd choice. Once the master fails you lose all deco info. As a result having an independent in line deco computer is necessary. Unless you like tables. I just spent about £800 on a Sherewater to do this and now i am trying to figure out where the hell to mount the brick. So you would have thought it better to put decompression on both hand sets then this would avoid the need for a back up computer. Even as an extra cost option it makes sense. Matching deco algorithms, both with in line deco information and reduced clutter. ATB Mark Chase personally, I think a deco option WILL become available sometime in the future for the secondary as an upgrade (the pressure sensor is already there).. I know I wount chose the route... I like the fast response of the secondary.. When in classic mode its a true po2 display with very little damping.. Once you start to integrate deco, you slow the response time.. as dives start to get big you can REALLY start to impact responsiveness.. Having to do "test" ascents evertime you want to calculate a TTS takes alot of time.. Considering that all these devices want to use as little power as possible, they are generally run at the slowest clock frequency they can to save power.... I remember talking to Gene about the explorer, until he put in a few tricks his TTS was taking nearly a minute for big dives... I know I have done dives on the HH that the TTS calc took 30-45 seconds, so by the time it actually displayed the TTS it was already wrong! On some deep stuff I have seen deco jump over 30 minutes between TTS calculations.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

31st October 2006, 13:07	#30 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,397	Re: Hard off switch on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) personally, I think a deco option WILL become available sometime in the future for the secondary as an upgrade (the pressure sensor is already there).. I know I wount chose the route... I like the fast response of the secondary.. When in classic mode its a true po2 display with very little damping.. Once you start to integrate deco, you slow the response time.. as dives start to get big you can REALLY start to impact responsiveness.. Uh, why would that be the case for the PO2 displays? No multitasking executive (or at least multiple threads?) in this thing? __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode