Diving agency Certs

**nigelh** · 22nd October 2006, 10:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

For me it's not a problem. You don't get to sign up for a 100' dive off my boat with out somebody I respect vouching for your character and diving skills. Sharks attacks are an non issue; lawyers are a fact of life and business over here!

Interesting...

In the UK most Charter Skippers normally do not enquire as to your qualifications except maybe as a column on a 'name/address/gas mix/who do we notify if...' form.

No matter how knowledgeable they are and how good the advice they give is they do not make the decision whether you should dive or not. This is an important legal point as you, and you only, decide to dive and the consequences are your fault if it all goes to bits on you.

Sure I dive with some good guys who's opinion I'd take as gospel but I have to let them continue the fiction that they are are just a water-taxi driver taking me too and from the site or their insurance bill would probably be more than the fuel.

(edit)I just checked and only one of my cards has a depth on it. CCR mod 1 with 40m. (/edit)

Mike · 22nd October 2006, 12:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Normoxic dil diver = Max depth of 60m, fO2 of dil greater than 21% and a bottom end of less than 40m.

Good idea in general Steve, but what are you trying to achieve with FO2 >21%? Besides being somewhat foolish (PPO2 of dil of 1.47 at 60m, not good), it's also logistically annoying. Just dive 10/50 (or topped off varients) like everyone else.
On open circuit, I can see the point of differentiating between Hypoxic and normoxic, but on a rebreather, why bother? The onboard 3l isn't going to get you anywhere close to the surface before it runs out, so you'll be on a stage anyway. The time it takes to breath the loop down from 21% to 10% (after a flush at the surface) is SFA as well and will make bugger all difference to any outcome.

Jeff, for what it's worth;
SSI - Mod one doesn't have a depth rating, but I'd assume 50m based on course content
SSI - Trimix, again no depth rating on the card, but 100m was discussed.
IANTD - Mod 1 is 40m, air dil, no deco

Not sure what problem you are trying to solve? Is it just covering you're arse (in which case you're right to insist on eveyone having a card rating them to the appropriate depth) or are you worried about people doing dives beyond their capability? If the latter, then asking for a referral is probably pretty easy.

Mike

Steve · 22nd October 2006, 15:21

Hi Mike,

I'm guessing you missed the part of my post where I said I hadn't given the numbers any real thought and was just giving Jeff an idea of the concept I was explaining

JonnyB · 22nd October 2006, 15:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

For me it's not a problem. You don't get to sign up for a 100' dive off my boat with out somebody I respect vouching for your character and diving skills. Sharks attacks are an non issue; lawyers are a fact of life and business over here!

Speaking of which, I have got to get up early and run a trip. Good night.

Ted

Hi Ted, this is very interesting stand yu have there... If we had the same stanpoint we would go out of bussiness. Every dive we do it past 100ft... So anyone who does not know anyone of your aquitances cannot dive with you?

/Jonny

Genesis · 22nd October 2006, 17:29

As a private boat owner in the US it is my considered position (after both careful thought AND consultation with those who will end up defending me if I get sued) that the most defensible position is to bugger off.

That is, I am a water taxi. I am responsible for you from the time you set foot on board until you willfully depart the vessel. Oh, you're going to that before we get back to the dock, aren't you? Yep, and more than once too!

'K, 'tis cool. You go have fun and when you get back on board you're my responsibility once again.

This comports very well with general maritime law throughout the ages, and is IMHO the most defensible position you can take.

As soon as you start "passing judgement" you're asking for it. Waiver or no waiver, once you make a decision you will be held accountable for its results. While you MAY get away with that due to the strength of the waiver(s) you have signed, I don't like those odds one little bit, and that's a fight I do not want to engage in.

I have not had to test this position, and don't want to either. Then again, I don't do this for money, which may also have an impact. IMHO accepting the "industry standard guidelines" is asking for it; the best advice I can give is to talk with whatever landshark you will end up using if things go sideways and see what THEY say.

Dutchy · 22nd October 2006, 18:18

To obfuscate it further not every agency uses the MOD1,2,3 indication. ANDI Level2 is roughly MOD1. No deco and max depth 40m. (Level1 is intro?)

Joe · 22nd October 2006, 19:48

IMO this whole topic is somewhat comedic when you consider that the reality of things is that a certification card only means you met a minimum standard or, worse yet, in some cases it only means you paid for the course.

Without some personal first, second or third hand knowledge of the individual in question I would NEVER accept a certification as a standard by which I would include or exclude a diver for a trip.

Granted, this is a hobby for me so I don't have to worry about who I piss off by saying no but when we put trips together an unknown diver needs to have someone who will vouch for his / her abilities. For a really extreme trip you must be a known entity who has been diving with us. No exceptions.

We have always made it a point to look for experience and ability and not look for certifications because we have learned that certifications are not always a reliable standard to judge a diver by.

The other things we have made a point of never doing is directing anyone. The minute you do that you put yourself in the position of an authority and an expert and you accept an implied responsibility that the direction you are giving is correct and safe. Not a good position to be in if something goes wrong.

Bottom line is that I'd prefer a seasoned diver with minimal certifications that has been successfully doing tech for years to a newly certified diver with all sorts of C cards from a mainstream tech agency but no track record.

chrismc · 23rd October 2006, 11:54

Whilst I'm not a boat owner, from what I understand I agree with Genesis. Acting as a water taxi would be the best approach.

Transport to and from a set location, what you choose to do there is upto you. The only claim they could make would be negligence where you ignored a problem.

The problem with checking cards is you are then making a judgement on whether they can dive. If you consequently approve them and something goes wrong...

The only value in checking qualifications / logs etc. is where you can get defence from a larger agency e.g. if the company policy or diving standards says to do it, and you comply then it will be deemed as their battle and not your own.

just my thoughts,

Chris

Mike · 23rd October 2006, 14:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Hi Mike,

I'm guessing you missed the part of my post where I said I hadn't given the numbers any real thought and was just giving Jeff an idea of the concept I was explaining

Umm... yeah...
Back to my regularly scheduled Hennessy VSOP then.

Mike

***jradomski*** · 23rd October 2006, 15:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

To obfuscate it further not every agency uses the MOD1,2,3 indication. ANDI Level2 is roughly MOD1. No deco and max depth 40m. (Level1 is intro?)

Hi,
The ANDI level ratings are consistent across all technologies..

Level 1 is that of an introductory nature, like an Open water diver, for rebreathers a level 1 class is an introductory class, not a certification....

Level 2 programs are that of a diver with more than just introductory experience.. The ratings limits are consistent across the board 40m no deco..

level 3 programs are entry level technical programs.. for non hard overhead enviroments 50m/ 3o minutes of deco, with 1 deco gas switch.. for an overhead enviroment limits are usually 40m.. In all programs except 1 breathing medium is nitrox/air

level 4 is an exploration level program, 50m depth limited, unlimited gear configurations/gas switches/unlimited deco.. N2o2 only

level 5, no depth or gear limits.. Full trimix, depth only limited by available support..

CCR certification programs are l2,l3 and l5

22nd October 2006, 10:19	#11 (permalink)
nigelh New member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 883	Re: Diving agency Certs Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) For me it's not a problem. You don't get to sign up for a 100' dive off my boat with out somebody I respect vouching for your character and diving skills. Sharks attacks are an non issue; lawyers are a fact of life and business over here! Interesting... In the UK most Charter Skippers normally do not enquire as to your qualifications except maybe as a column on a 'name/address/gas mix/who do we notify if...' form. No matter how knowledgeable they are and how good the advice they give is they do not make the decision whether you should dive or not. This is an important legal point as you, and you only, decide to dive and the consequences are your fault if it all goes to bits on you. Sure I dive with some good guys who's opinion I'd take as gospel but I have to let them continue the fiction that they are are just a water-taxi driver taking me too and from the site or their insurance bill would probably be more than the fuel. (edit)I just checked and only one of my cards has a depth on it. CCR mod 1 with 40m. (/edit) __________________ nigelh Last edited by nigelh : 22nd October 2006 at 10:24.
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22nd October 2006, 12:08	#12 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 332	Re: Diving agency Certs Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Normoxic dil diver = Max depth of 60m, fO2 of dil greater than 21% and a bottom end of less than 40m. Good idea in general Steve, but what are you trying to achieve with FO2 >21%? Besides being somewhat foolish (PPO2 of dil of 1.47 at 60m, not good), it's also logistically annoying. Just dive 10/50 (or topped off varients) like everyone else. On open circuit, I can see the point of differentiating between Hypoxic and normoxic, but on a rebreather, why bother? The onboard 3l isn't going to get you anywhere close to the surface before it runs out, so you'll be on a stage anyway. The time it takes to breath the loop down from 21% to 10% (after a flush at the surface) is SFA as well and will make bugger all difference to any outcome. Jeff, for what it's worth; SSI - Mod one doesn't have a depth rating, but I'd assume 50m based on course content SSI - Trimix, again no depth rating on the card, but 100m was discussed. IANTD - Mod 1 is 40m, air dil, no deco Not sure what problem you are trying to solve? Is it just covering you're arse (in which case you're right to insist on eveyone having a card rating them to the appropriate depth) or are you worried about people doing dives beyond their capability? If the latter, then asking for a referral is probably pretty easy. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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22nd October 2006, 15:21	#13 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,126	Re: Diving agency Certs Hi Mike, I'm guessing you missed the part of my post where I said I hadn't given the numbers any real thought and was just giving Jeff an idea of the concept I was explaining __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
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22nd October 2006, 15:30	#14 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 991	Re: Diving agency Certs Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) For me it's not a problem. You don't get to sign up for a 100' dive off my boat with out somebody I respect vouching for your character and diving skills. Sharks attacks are an non issue; lawyers are a fact of life and business over here! Speaking of which, I have got to get up early and run a trip. Good night. Ted Hi Ted, this is very interesting stand yu have there... If we had the same stanpoint we would go out of bussiness. Every dive we do it past 100ft... So anyone who does not know anyone of your aquitances cannot dive with you? /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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22nd October 2006, 17:29	#15 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Diving agency Certs As a private boat owner in the US it is my considered position (after both careful thought AND consultation with those who will end up defending me if I get sued) that the most defensible position is to bugger off. That is, I am a water taxi. I am responsible for you from the time you set foot on board until you willfully depart the vessel. Oh, you're going to that before we get back to the dock, aren't you? Yep, and more than once too! 'K, 'tis cool. You go have fun and when you get back on board you're my responsibility once again. This comports very well with general maritime law throughout the ages, and is IMHO the most defensible position you can take. As soon as you start "passing judgement" you're asking for it. Waiver or no waiver, once you make a decision you will be held accountable for its results. While you MAY get away with that due to the strength of the waiver(s) you have signed, I don't like those odds one little bit, and that's a fight I do not want to engage in. I have not had to test this position, and don't want to either. Then again, I don't do this for money, which may also have an impact. IMHO accepting the "industry standard guidelines" is asking for it; the best advice I can give is to talk with whatever landshark you will end up using if things go sideways and see what THEY say. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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22nd October 2006, 18:18	#16 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: Diving agency Certs To obfuscate it further not every agency uses the MOD1,2,3 indication. ANDI Level2 is roughly MOD1. No deco and max depth 40m. (Level1 is intro?) __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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22nd October 2006, 19:48	#17 (permalink)
Joe RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 321	Re: Diving agency Certs IMO this whole topic is somewhat comedic when you consider that the reality of things is that a certification card only means you met a minimum standard or, worse yet, in some cases it only means you paid for the course. Without some personal first, second or third hand knowledge of the individual in question I would NEVER accept a certification as a standard by which I would include or exclude a diver for a trip. Granted, this is a hobby for me so I don't have to worry about who I piss off by saying no but when we put trips together an unknown diver needs to have someone who will vouch for his / her abilities. For a really extreme trip you must be a known entity who has been diving with us. No exceptions. We have always made it a point to look for experience and ability and not look for certifications because we have learned that certifications are not always a reliable standard to judge a diver by. The other things we have made a point of never doing is directing anyone. The minute you do that you put yourself in the position of an authority and an expert and you accept an implied responsibility that the direction you are giving is correct and safe. Not a good position to be in if something goes wrong. Bottom line is that I'd prefer a seasoned diver with minimal certifications that has been successfully doing tech for years to a newly certified diver with all sorts of C cards from a mainstream tech agency but no track record.
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23rd October 2006, 11:54	#18 (permalink)
chrismc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: North west, uk Posts: 61	Re: Diving agency Certs Whilst I'm not a boat owner, from what I understand I agree with Genesis. Acting as a water taxi would be the best approach. Transport to and from a set location, what you choose to do there is upto you. The only claim they could make would be negligence where you ignored a problem. The problem with checking cards is you are then making a judgement on whether they can dive. If you consequently approve them and something goes wrong... The only value in checking qualifications / logs etc. is where you can get defence from a larger agency e.g. if the company policy or diving standards says to do it, and you comply then it will be deemed as their battle and not your own. just my thoughts, Chris
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23rd October 2006, 14:46	#19 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 332	Re: Diving agency Certs Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Hi Mike, I'm guessing you missed the part of my post where I said I hadn't given the numbers any real thought and was just giving Jeff an idea of the concept I was explaining Umm... yeah... Back to my regularly scheduled Hennessy VSOP then. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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23rd October 2006, 15:10	#20 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: Diving agency Certs Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) To obfuscate it further not every agency uses the MOD1,2,3 indication. ANDI Level2 is roughly MOD1. No deco and max depth 40m. (Level1 is intro?) Hi, The ANDI level ratings are consistent across all technologies.. Level 1 is that of an introductory nature, like an Open water diver, for rebreathers a level 1 class is an introductory class, not a certification.... Level 2 programs are that of a diver with more than just introductory experience.. The ratings limits are consistent across the board 40m no deco.. level 3 programs are entry level technical programs.. for non hard overhead enviroments 50m/ 3o minutes of deco, with 1 deco gas switch.. for an overhead enviroment limits are usually 40m.. In all programs except 1 breathing medium is nitrox/air level 4 is an exploration level program, 50m depth limited, unlimited gear configurations/gas switches/unlimited deco.. N2o2 only level 5, no depth or gear limits.. Full trimix, depth only limited by available support.. CCR certification programs are l2,l3 and l5 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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