Deep wreck expedition

decoweenie · 7th June 2005, 16:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Please share with us the author of this report.

I recognize the writing...

FYI, the author owns at least 4 MK-15 (at the same time) along with other units. And have been one of the earliest original crash-test dummy for the Juergensen analog electronic, then also digital electronic later. He lives in California and a medical doctor.

His partner also owns a few MK-15 as well as designed and dives his own version of electronic SPC on his MK-15. He lives in Hawaii and also a medical doctor.

Both recently bought their SK for travel purpose (as mentioned).

Based on the past contact with them, I found both to be extremely well-informed about Rebreather in general. AFAIK, both have been diving RB before I even took my first breath from a RB unit.

Those are the facts that I know. The rest concerning the trip on the Empress with Vidar, I have absolutely no idea but having dived off the Empress a long time ago, it all sounded very familiar...

Drmike · 7th June 2005, 17:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andrew Goldby)

I've been asked by one of the other expedition members to post a response to Dr Mike's original exped. report (since they are not a member of this forum).

Please bear in mind that the views are those of the Author and not my own

Here's a more accurate account. Let's see if Mike can let go of the euphoria of the deep & recall ;-)

The only rig that sustained major injury was Mike Gadd's Mk15. He cracked the dome of his center section, a potential complete loop failure event. This injury was matched by that to Mike's own head: He smacked into a wreck's overhang while riding his scooter at full-tilt in zero visibility. This was not his only equipment failure: Apart from his memory ;-) Mike also killed a bottom timer, a dive computer and his own laptop. And his scooter wasn't looking too well at the end of the trip.

When it became apparent that four of the divers would have no influence on the itinerary and that (perhaps) one dive a day would be made in conditions so bad that even Mike said he had never seen the like before, we decided to try and salvage something from the trip. (And I don't mean drop once on an unresearched wreck and smash and grab. Salvage?) Note that *all* of the wreck pictures and the safe came from the only wreck we dived that had more than 1m of visibility. True, we were told that the "viz on the 103m depth wreck was great", a dive I did not attempt for personal safety constraints (I don't like very short dives with long deco hangs or to dive without a bailout plan I can accomplish), but even Mike still emerged with his customary "it was all a blur".

What Mike describes as a "nightmare" was in fact our standard routine of testing stuff until it breaks. After 49 years of diving and 10 years on "expedition" rebreathers (I own 8 and have been a crash-test dummy for many), I want a CCR I can carry anywhere in the world on light aircraft. (Think Bikini) We have greatly modified our SK rigs and so the answers to the questions below are specific to ours and should not be generalized.

Finally, I am very rigorous about testing equipment that's going to support my life and do not measure CCR maintenance in the number of beers consumed between dives. Perhaps this kind of evaluation is a nightmare to some.

So, questions we answered (all or in part) were:

Can you dive a compensated O2 first stage to depth?
Does the plugged O2 first stage actually stop working suddenly or slowly?
Which make of O2 sensor holds up best to the temperature swings of calibration on deck (39C) and diving to <20C?
Does the sensor calibration hold linearly in the important range of 0.9 to 1.4 bar over ten days of use - as measured by a pressure pot and the varying gasses you will actually dive?
What is the in-use performance of the sensors and do they match and/or need recalibration at what interval? Again - - as measured by a pressure pot.
What happens to the linearity of O2 sensor response when you add high helium mixtures?
Will the KISS valve hold a high loop setpoint on deco and at various depths?
What's the performance of different scrubber change times?
Do the O2 meters match and stay in calibration over time and temp?
Does an integrated Vr3 match the sensors over time, depth, temp?
How can you best match an unintegrated Vr3 with a sensor-integrated Vr3 on the same dive/diver?
Will a solenoid O2 controller give better control than a carefully adjusted KISS valve and an experienced hand on the add button?
What happens to a DESO at depth on an uncompensated reg?
Can I over breathe the rig at depth, in a current?
How quickly will CO2 levels return to acceptable, in the event of a build-up?
What are the best positions to hold on deco for static loop volume?
etc, etc.

Problems?

Apart from traveling half-way round the world and listening to Mike repeat endlessly - "You're on the wrong trip"? Don't I know it! I might as well have been diving a pile of junk at the end of a rope. What bothered us most was the fact that little or no attention was paid to what the four KISS/OC divers wanted to dive. There was supposed to be some "compromise" that never transpired. The viz was uniformly bad below 70m. Vidar claimed 400 sites, many shallower than 70m. When we four asked to dive these sites, or even the sites we were already on more than once - to allow us to orient ourselves a bit on the wreck - we were told that we needed to "move on". In general, this was about the least interesting trip I have even been on.

1. The Velcro holding the counter lungs failed when we jumped from the boat, loaded with stages into a modest current. This happened once on this trip and was easily remedied by reinforcing the Velcro with tie-wraps.

2. A positive pressure test revealed some bubbling from the pod/counter lung connections to the scrubber. There was never any evidence of ingress of water. I added a pair of O-rings to mine; my dive buddy RTV cemented his in place.

I recommend you always perform both a positive and negative pressure test prior to every dive. Also do a bubble check at modest depth 3-10m, on any CCR unit you dive.

The nightmares I had were not with my equipment, but due to watching people take significant risks and wondering how they would survive a loop failure and being lost on a wreck.

Wow! Thats really funny, silly and in places just outright untrue.

I could reply in kind but I dont see the point. Those on the trip know the true story.

How old are you?

decoweenie · 8th June 2005, 04:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Wow! Thats really funny, silly and in places just outright untrue.

I could reply in kind but I dont see the point. Those on the trip know the true story.?

I was CC'ed on the details of the trip (focused on the SK performance) from PH's view-point...

Personally, IMHO, it was plain old-fashion misunderstanding since what were written on your initial post were not "incorrect" but also not entire "correct" if you guys just had a little discussion over dinner during the trip.

Personally, I am not interested in getting in the middle of a good argument between you guys

but I also don't want "misunderstanding information" about the unit floating about either.

So I just want to say that I am relieved to find out that what you thought were major disasters were really not.

Addition:

Respecting the market where Gordon wishes to promote the SK unit, I withhold my comments concerning its performance. I just felt that it might be a bit unfair to judge something you haven't tried, or in the hands of new users (of such particular unit, not Rebreather).

Drmike · 8th June 2005, 06:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I was CC'ed on the details of the trip...

Personally, IMHO, it was plain old fashion misunderstanding since what were written on your initial were not "incorrect" but also not entire "correct" if you guys just had a little discussion over dinner during the trip.

Personally, I am not interested in getting in the middle of a good argument between you guys

but I also don't want "misunderstanding information" about the unit floating about either.

So I just want to say that I relief to find out that what you thought were major disasters were really not.

I never thought - or said - they were major disasters. They were problems that arose that did stop several of their dives and delayed others.

Fred Evans · 8th June 2005, 06:46

I was on this trip and find Peter’s comments rather inexplicable.

Here is my posting from the KISS and Megalodon web sites regarding the trip which maybe some of you saw (this is the posting that Peter responded to).

“Anyone interested in joining an MV Empress trip late May 05: 12 days, ~10 wrecks, all virgin (the wrecks that is, not a diver requirement), depth range 70-110m, trip will run out of Singapore going to the West coast of Borneo (Kalimantan)?”

I think you will agree that it implies that we were planning on bagging as many new wrecks as we could and a strong possibility that we will be diving in the 70-110m range.

In the end we did compromise the intent of the trip in light of the preferences of some of the divers to the extent that for 7 of the 10 diving days we went back to previously dived wrecks in the 60m range so that ended up only diving 3 new deep wrecks. We were desperate to dive a Jap sub in 130m but in fairness to the others we gave it a miss (next year though). I thought it was a pretty fair compromise.

Despite this it is clear Peter was not happy with the dive sites and conditions. What can I say, this was not some horrible conspiracy, the conditions are what they are, in the middle of the NatunaSea +/-60m is effectively the shallowest you get, and thermoclines are the norm. I am sorry he feels this way and his tone seems to imply he was embarrassed by the references to the Sport KISS problems, but his reaction is a bit out of order especially when he implies that others were diving unsafely. Personally I don’t feel that the Sport KISS is suited to this type of diving and suspect that Gordon had a reason for calling it the Sport (but hey what do I know).

Simply put this is not the sort of diving Peter and Bob do, and there is nothing wrong in that, but how they got the impression that this was the trip for them with virtually brand new Sport KISS’s I can’t understand. I enjoyed Peter & Bob’s company which make this all the more inexplicable. I knew they were having problems, just didn’t realize it was with us!

I had a great time, clocked up another 35 hours on the Meg, had the buzz of diving 3 virgin wrecks and came back with a few mementos.

Trust me, if you like serious wreck hunting the Empress is VERY hard to beat (which is why the majority of their divers are repeat customers and advertising is purely word of mouth).

Regards, Fred Evans

Drmike · 8th June 2005, 09:41

Quote:

The only rig that sustained major injury was Mike Gadd's Mk15. He cracked the dome of his center section, a potential complete loop failure event.

Quote:

At the end of the trip I noticed a shallow mark (it looked like a crack at first) about 5mm long in part of the dome. On closer inspection it was actually just a shallow scratch probably from placing the dome down on the dive boat floor when cleaning my gear. Its certainly not a 'major injury' and the suggestion that theres potential for a loop failure is unfounded. Having said that If I dont return from diving the Prince of Wales this weekend you know what happened

Quote:

This injury was matched by that to Mike's own head: He smacked into a wreck's overhang while riding his scooter at full-tilt in zero visibility. This was not his only equipment failure: Apart from his memory ;-) Mike also killed a bottom timer, a dive computer and his own laptop. And his scooter wasn't looking too well at the end of the trip.

Yep I did bang my head,and boy did it hurt! 78m is not a good depth to be knocking oneself out!
Yes I did have a computer or 2 fail (but one didnt belong to me as I had borrowed the explorer from you!)

Despite the unfounded suggestions to the contrary I was diving saftely with back up timers/comps and a slate so it was no big deal...and again contrary to suggestions, on all my dives I carried full bailout - as I always do.
My scooter always looks like that - cos it gets used/abused a lot

7th June 2005, 16:48	#21 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Please share with us the author of this report. I recognize the writing... FYI, the author owns at least 4 MK-15 (at the same time) along with other units. And have been one of the earliest original crash-test dummy for the Juergensen analog electronic, then also digital electronic later. He lives in California and a medical doctor. His partner also owns a few MK-15 as well as designed and dives his own version of electronic SPC on his MK-15. He lives in Hawaii and also a medical doctor. Both recently bought their SK for travel purpose (as mentioned). Based on the past contact with them, I found both to be extremely well-informed about Rebreather in general. AFAIK, both have been diving RB before I even took my first breath from a RB unit. Those are the facts that I know. The rest concerning the trip on the Empress with Vidar, I have absolutely no idea but having dived off the Empress a long time ago, it all sounded very familiar...
(Offline)

7th June 2005, 17:34	#22 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Quote: (Originally Posted by Andrew Goldby) I've been asked by one of the other expedition members to post a response to Dr Mike's original exped. report (since they are not a member of this forum). Please bear in mind that the views are those of the Author and not my own Here's a more accurate account. Let's see if Mike can let go of the euphoria of the deep & recall ;-) The only rig that sustained major injury was Mike Gadd's Mk15. He cracked the dome of his center section, a potential complete loop failure event. This injury was matched by that to Mike's own head: He smacked into a wreck's overhang while riding his scooter at full-tilt in zero visibility. This was not his only equipment failure: Apart from his memory ;-) Mike also killed a bottom timer, a dive computer and his own laptop. And his scooter wasn't looking too well at the end of the trip. When it became apparent that four of the divers would have no influence on the itinerary and that (perhaps) one dive a day would be made in conditions so bad that even Mike said he had never seen the like before, we decided to try and salvage something from the trip. (And I don't mean drop once on an unresearched wreck and smash and grab. Salvage?) Note that all of the wreck pictures and the safe came from the only wreck we dived that had more than 1m of visibility. True, we were told that the "viz on the 103m depth wreck was great", a dive I did not attempt for personal safety constraints (I don't like very short dives with long deco hangs or to dive without a bailout plan I can accomplish), but even Mike still emerged with his customary "it was all a blur". What Mike describes as a "nightmare" was in fact our standard routine of testing stuff until it breaks. After 49 years of diving and 10 years on "expedition" rebreathers (I own 8 and have been a crash-test dummy for many), I want a CCR I can carry anywhere in the world on light aircraft. (Think Bikini) We have greatly modified our SK rigs and so the answers to the questions below are specific to ours and should not be generalized. Finally, I am very rigorous about testing equipment that's going to support my life and do not measure CCR maintenance in the number of beers consumed between dives. Perhaps this kind of evaluation is a nightmare to some. So, questions we answered (all or in part) were: Can you dive a compensated O2 first stage to depth? Does the plugged O2 first stage actually stop working suddenly or slowly? Which make of O2 sensor holds up best to the temperature swings of calibration on deck (39C) and diving to <20C? Does the sensor calibration hold linearly in the important range of 0.9 to 1.4 bar over ten days of use - as measured by a pressure pot and the varying gasses you will actually dive? What is the in-use performance of the sensors and do they match and/or need recalibration at what interval? Again - - as measured by a pressure pot. What happens to the linearity of O2 sensor response when you add high helium mixtures? Will the KISS valve hold a high loop setpoint on deco and at various depths? What's the performance of different scrubber change times? Do the O2 meters match and stay in calibration over time and temp? Does an integrated Vr3 match the sensors over time, depth, temp? How can you best match an unintegrated Vr3 with a sensor-integrated Vr3 on the same dive/diver? Will a solenoid O2 controller give better control than a carefully adjusted KISS valve and an experienced hand on the add button? What happens to a DESO at depth on an uncompensated reg? Can I over breathe the rig at depth, in a current? How quickly will CO2 levels return to acceptable, in the event of a build-up? What are the best positions to hold on deco for static loop volume? etc, etc. Problems? Apart from traveling half-way round the world and listening to Mike repeat endlessly - "You're on the wrong trip"? Don't I know it! I might as well have been diving a pile of junk at the end of a rope. What bothered us most was the fact that little or no attention was paid to what the four KISS/OC divers wanted to dive. There was supposed to be some "compromise" that never transpired. The viz was uniformly bad below 70m. Vidar claimed 400 sites, many shallower than 70m. When we four asked to dive these sites, or even the sites we were already on more than once - to allow us to orient ourselves a bit on the wreck - we were told that we needed to "move on". In general, this was about the least interesting trip I have even been on. 1. The Velcro holding the counter lungs failed when we jumped from the boat, loaded with stages into a modest current. This happened once on this trip and was easily remedied by reinforcing the Velcro with tie-wraps. 2. A positive pressure test revealed some bubbling from the pod/counter lung connections to the scrubber. There was never any evidence of ingress of water. I added a pair of O-rings to mine; my dive buddy RTV cemented his in place. I recommend you always perform both a positive and negative pressure test prior to every dive. Also do a bubble check at modest depth 3-10m, on any CCR unit you dive. The nightmares I had were not with my equipment, but due to watching people take significant risks and wondering how they would survive a loop failure and being lost on a wreck. Wow! Thats really funny, silly and in places just outright untrue. I could reply in kind but I dont see the point. Those on the trip know the true story. How old are you?
(Offline)

8th June 2005, 04:55	#23 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Wow! Thats really funny, silly and in places just outright untrue. I could reply in kind but I dont see the point. Those on the trip know the true story.? I was CC'ed on the details of the trip (focused on the SK performance) from PH's view-point... Personally, IMHO, it was plain old-fashion misunderstanding since what were written on your initial post were not "incorrect" but also not entire "correct" if you guys just had a little discussion over dinner during the trip. Personally, I am not interested in getting in the middle of a good argument between you guys but I also don't want "misunderstanding information" about the unit floating about either. So I just want to say that I am relieved to find out that what you thought were major disasters were really not. Addition: Respecting the market where Gordon wishes to promote the SK unit, I withhold my comments concerning its performance. I just felt that it might be a bit unfair to judge something you haven't tried, or in the hands of new users (of such particular unit, not Rebreather).
(Offline)

8th June 2005, 06:35	#24 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I was CC'ed on the details of the trip... Personally, IMHO, it was plain old fashion misunderstanding since what were written on your initial were not "incorrect" but also not entire "correct" if you guys just had a little discussion over dinner during the trip. Personally, I am not interested in getting in the middle of a good argument between you guys but I also don't want "misunderstanding information" about the unit floating about either. So I just want to say that I relief to find out that what you thought were major disasters were really not. I never thought - or said - they were major disasters. They were problems that arose that did stop several of their dives and delayed others.
(Offline)

8th June 2005, 06:46	#25 (permalink)
Fred Evans Old Bull Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Indonesia, Jakarta Posts: 51	A response to the response I was on this trip and find Peter’s comments rather inexplicable. Here is my posting from the KISS and Megalodon web sites regarding the trip which maybe some of you saw (this is the posting that Peter responded to). “Anyone interested in joining an MV Empress trip late May 05: 12 days, ~10 wrecks, all virgin (the wrecks that is, not a diver requirement), depth range 70-110m, trip will run out of Singapore going to the West coast of Borneo (Kalimantan)?” I think you will agree that it implies that we were planning on bagging as many new wrecks as we could and a strong possibility that we will be diving in the 70-110m range. In the end we did compromise the intent of the trip in light of the preferences of some of the divers to the extent that for 7 of the 10 diving days we went back to previously dived wrecks in the 60m range so that ended up only diving 3 new deep wrecks. We were desperate to dive a Jap sub in 130m but in fairness to the others we gave it a miss (next year though). I thought it was a pretty fair compromise. Despite this it is clear Peter was not happy with the dive sites and conditions. What can I say, this was not some horrible conspiracy, the conditions are what they are, in the middle of the NatunaSea +/-60m is effectively the shallowest you get, and thermoclines are the norm. I am sorry he feels this way and his tone seems to imply he was embarrassed by the references to the Sport KISS problems, but his reaction is a bit out of order especially when he implies that others were diving unsafely. Personally I don’t feel that the Sport KISS is suited to this type of diving and suspect that Gordon had a reason for calling it the Sport (but hey what do I know). Simply put this is not the sort of diving Peter and Bob do, and there is nothing wrong in that, but how they got the impression that this was the trip for them with virtually brand new Sport KISS’s I can’t understand. I enjoyed Peter & Bob’s company which make this all the more inexplicable. I knew they were having problems, just didn’t realize it was with us! I had a great time, clocked up another 35 hours on the Meg, had the buzz of diving 3 virgin wrecks and came back with a few mementos. Trust me, if you like serious wreck hunting the Empress is VERY hard to beat (which is why the majority of their divers are repeat customers and advertising is purely word of mouth). Regards, Fred Evans
(Offline)

8th June 2005, 09:41	#26 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Quote: The only rig that sustained major injury was Mike Gadd's Mk15. He cracked the dome of his center section, a potential complete loop failure event. Quote: At the end of the trip I noticed a shallow mark (it looked like a crack at first) about 5mm long in part of the dome. On closer inspection it was actually just a shallow scratch probably from placing the dome down on the dive boat floor when cleaning my gear. Its certainly not a 'major injury' and the suggestion that theres potential for a loop failure is unfounded. Having said that If I dont return from diving the Prince of Wales this weekend you know what happened Quote: This injury was matched by that to Mike's own head: He smacked into a wreck's overhang while riding his scooter at full-tilt in zero visibility. This was not his only equipment failure: Apart from his memory ;-) Mike also killed a bottom timer, a dive computer and his own laptop. And his scooter wasn't looking too well at the end of the trip. Yep I did bang my head,and boy did it hurt! 78m is not a good depth to be knocking oneself out! Yes I did have a computer or 2 fail (but one didnt belong to me as I had borrowed the explorer from you!) Despite the unfounded suggestions to the contrary I was diving saftely with back up timers/comps and a slate so it was no big deal...and again contrary to suggestions, on all my dives I carried full bailout - as I always do. My scooter always looks like that - cos it gets used/abused a lot
(Offline)

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