Passive Scr Superiority?

***EBT*** · 17th October 2006, 09:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Taking it to extremes, the obvious way to make your dive safer is to wear a blue drysuit with pink spots, as this clearly must give the diver some degree of invincibility, as there have been no fatalities of divers with blue pink-spotted drysuits.

You utter bastard, now you're increasing the risk for the rest of us blue with pink spots users.

I notice no-one has picked up on the heavy involvement of hydrogen dioxide in all these deaths either, just goes to show how useful stats are

/Z

PS. Phi, sugar popcorn for me please..... and I meant "statistically it makes no difference".
PPS. Yes, we all know the answer is careful design, but thats just one piece of the puzzle.
PPPS. These PS's are irritating, arent they

pockets · 17th October 2006, 10:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh)

"Safest" cannot be determined theoretically and even when you start counting incidents Passive SCRs are so rare and only used under certain conditions so comparing like with like is virtually impossible.

My personal view is that safety on a rebreather is largely down to attitude.

Just a few words, i think.
Instead of talking about apples and oranges, how about horses for courses?
choice of gear is or at least should be mission driven and here I am going to have to use the "C" word, sorry ladies, COMPROMISE. Deciding what you need to accomplish your task and accepting the realities of what you have available to you calls for compromises which can often only be made by you.
Most of the time, I still dive O.C. because it meets my mission requirements, ease of maintenance, low cost, shallow bimbling off the beach. Now, if I need be be somewhere deeper, colder, longer. another set of compromises come into play and very likely a different choice of equipment.
Equipment designers have there own compromises to make. complexity, reliability, capability and not least cost and liability. so when you make your compromise, consider the devil's bargain that resulted in your rebreather.
I have been fortunate to have worked with pretty much all of the wests military rebreathers and most of its civilian ones and nothing so far, beats the others under all circumstances. there have certainly been more mechanical systems in use over the years, but mostly restricted to the military sphere. The oxymix is a PASCR which breathes very well and is very reliable, but worn on the chest and back, is bulky and difficult to put on without help.COMPROMISE.
The old DC55 again a PASCR which breaths well and is relatively compact but has a scrubber which is inefficient and easily clogged. COMPROMISE.
the stealth, touted as a state of the art ECCR, works fine in the swimmer delivery vehicles it was developed for, but less well free swimming and can't be flown manually ( at least the last time I saw it) COMPROMISE
I won't continue in this vane but just look at the number and veriety of after market tweeks which will be life or death for one diver and superfluous to another.
I spoke recently with a sage old rebreather manufacturer, about why I was designing my own rebreather and in the end it came down to wanting my own set of compromises and not someone elses.
Have I come up with a world beating design? I doubt it.
will it meet my mission requirements? Absolutely!
Would you want one? what's your Mission?

And that for me is the answer to which is the better operating mode. What is your mission and what compromises are you willing to make?

rebreathers aren't aspirin, none of them will answer all of your needs but the wrong choice may cure all your problems permenantly.

Be safe and keep asking questions
pockets

Dutchy · 17th October 2006, 11:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

You utter bastard, now you're increasing the risk for the rest of us blue with pink spots users.

I notice no-one has picked up on the heavy involvement of hydrogen dioxide in all these deaths either, just goes to show how useful stats are

You're fond of chemistry aren't you? Well I'm afraid that's only half the truth. Have you noticed that the hydrogen-dioxide roughly comes in two flavours? One is contaminated with high dosis of sodium chloride and one is not? Have you noticed there's a relationship between incidence rate and the presence of sodium chloride?
Statistics are a wonderfull thing. You can "prove" anything you WANT to prove. I'm afraid that truthfinding is all to often submisive to wanting a certain outcome. In the world of rebreathers it is no different

lizardland · 17th October 2006, 11:47

As far as I know, no Azerbaijanis have ever been involved in a rebreather accident either so the Azerbaijan Association of Technical Divers must be the safest agency to train with.

Take solace in the fact that rebreather diving is dangerous. If they were safe we'd have a load of DIR divers telling us what to do, using them for 25m drills and skills expeditions to Stoney Cove and pretending that they had invented them.

PS. I don't like popcorn, can I have Doritos?

decoweenie · 17th October 2006, 12:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

...If they were safe we'd have a load of DIR divers telling us what to do, using them for 25m drills and skills expeditions to Stoney Cove and pretending that they had invented them.

Or laying cave line for miles in OW like in Seattle with support team, tank sherpa's, etc...

Dutchy · 17th October 2006, 12:24

And the winner of DIR bashing contest is........... (cliffhanger positioned here, tomorrow we may learn the outcome)

***EBT*** · 17th October 2006, 12:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

(cliffhanger positioned here, tomorrow we may learn the outcome)

Of cliff hanging? Its got to be FAR more dangerous than a PASCR.

lizardland · 17th October 2006, 12:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Of cliff hanging? Its got to be FAR more dangerous than a PASCR.

Hanging? You're obsessed with auto-erotic asphyxia... Is there a forum where you haven't confessed to it yet? Begs the question of who Cliff is though...

I recommend an orange filled with amyl nitrate, it's much safer and doesn't leave hard to explain rashes...

steevke · 17th October 2006, 12:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I recommend an orange filled with amyl nitrate, it's much safer and doesn't leave hard to explain rashes...

The things you learn on a rebreather diving website are truly amazing

steven

Or do I have to use this

smiley given the sudden twist of the
conversation?

db8us · 17th October 2006, 13:18

Hey, here everyone can learn something new

17th October 2006, 09:58	#51 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,929	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Taking it to extremes, the obvious way to make your dive safer is to wear a blue drysuit with pink spots, as this clearly must give the diver some degree of invincibility, as there have been no fatalities of divers with blue pink-spotted drysuits. You utter bastard, now you're increasing the risk for the rest of us blue with pink spots users. I notice no-one has picked up on the heavy involvement of hydrogen dioxide in all these deaths either, just goes to show how useful stats are /Z PS. Phi, sugar popcorn for me please..... and I meant "statistically it makes no difference". PPS. Yes, we all know the answer is careful design, but thats just one piece of the puzzle. PPPS. These PS's are irritating, arent they __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 10:20	#52 (permalink)
pockets New Member Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Azimuth Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Plymouth Posts: 43	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh) "Safest" cannot be determined theoretically and even when you start counting incidents Passive SCRs are so rare and only used under certain conditions so comparing like with like is virtually impossible. My personal view is that safety on a rebreather is largely down to attitude. Just a few words, i think. Instead of talking about apples and oranges, how about horses for courses? choice of gear is or at least should be mission driven and here I am going to have to use the "C" word, sorry ladies, COMPROMISE. Deciding what you need to accomplish your task and accepting the realities of what you have available to you calls for compromises which can often only be made by you. Most of the time, I still dive O.C. because it meets my mission requirements, ease of maintenance, low cost, shallow bimbling off the beach. Now, if I need be be somewhere deeper, colder, longer. another set of compromises come into play and very likely a different choice of equipment. Equipment designers have there own compromises to make. complexity, reliability, capability and not least cost and liability. so when you make your compromise, consider the devil's bargain that resulted in your rebreather. I have been fortunate to have worked with pretty much all of the wests military rebreathers and most of its civilian ones and nothing so far, beats the others under all circumstances. there have certainly been more mechanical systems in use over the years, but mostly restricted to the military sphere. The oxymix is a PASCR which breathes very well and is very reliable, but worn on the chest and back, is bulky and difficult to put on without help.COMPROMISE. The old DC55 again a PASCR which breaths well and is relatively compact but has a scrubber which is inefficient and easily clogged. COMPROMISE. the stealth, touted as a state of the art ECCR, works fine in the swimmer delivery vehicles it was developed for, but less well free swimming and can't be flown manually ( at least the last time I saw it) COMPROMISE I won't continue in this vane but just look at the number and veriety of after market tweeks which will be life or death for one diver and superfluous to another. I spoke recently with a sage old rebreather manufacturer, about why I was designing my own rebreather and in the end it came down to wanting my own set of compromises and not someone elses. Have I come up with a world beating design? I doubt it. will it meet my mission requirements? Absolutely! Would you want one? what's your Mission? And that for me is the answer to which is the better operating mode. What is your mission and what compromises are you willing to make? rebreathers aren't aspirin, none of them will answer all of your needs but the wrong choice may cure all your problems permenantly. Be safe and keep asking questions pockets __________________ Nothing is foolproof for the really industrious fool! Real men can wear PINK Explorers. Can't they?
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 11:29	#53 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 729	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) You utter bastard, now you're increasing the risk for the rest of us blue with pink spots users. I notice no-one has picked up on the heavy involvement of hydrogen dioxide in all these deaths either, just goes to show how useful stats are You're fond of chemistry aren't you? Well I'm afraid that's only half the truth. Have you noticed that the hydrogen-dioxide roughly comes in two flavours? One is contaminated with high dosis of sodium chloride and one is not? Have you noticed there's a relationship between incidence rate and the presence of sodium chloride? Statistics are a wonderfull thing. You can "prove" anything you WANT to prove. I'm afraid that truthfinding is all to often submisive to wanting a certain outcome. In the world of rebreathers it is no different __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
(Online)

17th October 2006, 11:47	#54 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,250	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? As far as I know, no Azerbaijanis have ever been involved in a rebreather accident either so the Azerbaijan Association of Technical Divers must be the safest agency to train with. Take solace in the fact that rebreather diving is dangerous. If they were safe we'd have a load of DIR divers telling us what to do, using them for 25m drills and skills expeditions to Stoney Cove and pretending that they had invented them. PS. I don't like popcorn, can I have Doritos? __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 12:14	#55 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) ...If they were safe we'd have a load of DIR divers telling us what to do, using them for 25m drills and skills expeditions to Stoney Cove and pretending that they had invented them. Or laying cave line for miles in OW like in Seattle with support team, tank sherpa's, etc... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 12:24	#56 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 729	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? And the winner of DIR bashing contest is........... (cliffhanger positioned here, tomorrow we may learn the outcome) __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
(Online)

17th October 2006, 12:26	#57 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,929	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) (cliffhanger positioned here, tomorrow we may learn the outcome) Of cliff hanging? Its got to be FAR more dangerous than a PASCR. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 12:31	#58 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,250	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Of cliff hanging? Its got to be FAR more dangerous than a PASCR. Hanging? You're obsessed with auto-erotic asphyxia... Is there a forum where you haven't confessed to it yet? Begs the question of who Cliff is though... I recommend an orange filled with amyl nitrate, it's much safer and doesn't leave hard to explain rashes... __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 12:46	#59 (permalink)
steevke Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 309	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I recommend an orange filled with amyl nitrate, it's much safer and doesn't leave hard to explain rashes... The things you learn on a rebreather diving website are truly amazing steven Or do I have to use this smiley given the sudden twist of the conversation?
(Offline)

17th October 2006, 13:18	#60 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: Passive Scr Superiority? Hey, here everyone can learn something new
(Offline)

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