O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives

Spareparts06 · 12th July 2007, 22:06

The only good use I have ever found for an H2Odessy is to take the 2nd stage off of it and use it as my dry suit bottle Small Stream lined and has it own regulator build in.

Gilles · 9th February 2008, 09:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Well the major problem where the sh1t is gonna hit the fan, is doing a long deep dive with O2 in the suit after a big breakfast of huevos rancheros, now you have a seriously explosive mixture of fartrox, or less commonly known as meth-ox, a known contributor to global warming, one small bit of friction, a tiny static discharge, and ka-boomie, roast diver. Im pretty sure that is the method of providing the staged explosion that was filmed in "the cave" movie. Andres Matthes was the stunt diver, and we all know where he lives, yup, mexico, look at what happened to his hair for gosh sakes.
Enough concentration of meth-ox in a divers dry suit and you could even have spontaneous diver combustion, a rare killer of deep cave diver.

Its the devils gas, whatever you call it, fartrox or meth-ox, beware of this deadly combination and stay away from the beans when using oxygen as a drysuit inflation gas...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!.....

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

...

PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire?

I'd expect the electric current to pass across the divers wet and conductive DS exterior, a sort of Faraday's cage if I remember my college E&M. Unlikely but possible to generate sufficient heat for combustion.

Mdemon · 9th February 2008, 18:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles)

I'd expect the electric current to pass across the divers wet and conductive DS exterior, a sort of Faraday's cage if I remember my college E&M. Unlikely but possible to generate sufficient heat for combustion.

Since your body is also vaguely conductive, some of it is going to pass through you as well as along the suit I suspect. At the very least you have a path from one hand to the other. Might be worth asking a winchman. However, that's also my reasoning for no spark building up inside the suit - the charge should be earthed to the outside through the body and through the metal parts of the suit. Again, I'm no rocket scientist.

Did I mention in this thread that we tried to simulate a spark in O2? Pietzo gas lighter with inner suit material and O2 in a bag. Not a sausage - got bored trying. Same with a cigarette lighter (no gas). Took a lighter with gas to get a fire going.

teomannaskali · 9th February 2008, 19:29

I have also heard of those chemical things causing burns. However it is not due to it being in O2. It is just because they are not meant to be held too close to your body. Same as a hot water bottle. If you push it firmly on to your body it starts burning you. In a drysuit the squeeze probably pushed the chemical pouch too close to the body. Or the denser gas conducted more heat to the body.
The burns I heard of were in a wetsuit. So cannot be DS realted.

Teoman

"Well, It may or may not be relevent, but there was a poster presentation at the UHMS conference last year. It reported a case of 2nd degree burns that resulted from the use of a chemical hand warmer placed down the leg of a DS. The diver was using Nitrox 36 for back gas and dry suit inflation. On descent she began to have pain in her leg, which she thought was squeeze. Inflated the suit immediately made the pain worse and she surfaced with partial thickness burns to her leg.

Not really close to the same case, but related and worth thinking about."

__________________

Mdemon · 10th February 2008, 09:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by teomannaskali)

Teoman

"Well, It may or may not be relevent, but there was a poster presentation at the UHMS conference last year. It reported a case of 2nd degree burns that resulted from the use of a chemical hand warmer placed down the leg of a DS. The diver was using Nitrox 36 for back gas and dry suit inflation. On descent she began to have pain in her leg, which she thought was squeeze. Inflated the suit immediately made the pain worse and she surfaced with partial thickness burns to her leg.

Not really close to the same case, but related and worth thinking about."

__________________

It's very relevant. Those chemical packs, IIRC, work on the oxidation of the metal dust inside them. Somewhat naturally, using a gas with a higher amount of oxygen is going to speed up the process. Not very bright on her part.

teomannaskali · 10th February 2008, 10:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

It's very relevant. Those chemical packs, IIRC, work on the oxidation of the metal dust inside them. Somewhat naturally, using a gas with a higher amount of oxygen is going to speed up the process. Not very bright on her part.

The ones that i am talking about, that caused burns to the victim in my story, are a completly sealed pouch.

And the liquid inside consists mostly of salt and water. There is a coin like piece of metal inside. You slightly bend the coiny metal and it clicks. I am told that some crystal structure or something is exposed or whatever did not quite understand and the person explaining was a salesman who was just repeating what he had heard. Then the transparent liquid inside start developing crystals within and generating heat. At the end of the reaction the pouch is completely solid. No gasses involved.
It is %100 rechargeable. You boil it for 10 minutes and the liquid becomes clear again. They claim that it can be recharged about 1000 times. However i had the bright idea of recharging mine on the dashboard of the car, and after about 5 recharges some gas formed inside. Still usable but a bit more inconvenient to boil as it doesnt sink.

Teoman

mixedangased · 10th February 2008, 13:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction?

Can this be repeated with damp material?

Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver?

So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it.

PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire?

hiya john,
all you need to create a good spark is a long peice of wire and a spark plug connect the plug and wire together plug the other end to the ht lead on a petrol car and start it up with the spark plug in a bin liner of pure o2
ps i use o2 as ds gas have been for the past 5yrs +with no probs.

Mdemon · 10th February 2008, 14:27

2 years here - no bonfire yet.

12th July 2007, 22:06	#71 (permalink)
Spareparts06 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Jacksonville Posts: 14	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives The only good use I have ever found for an H2Odessy is to take the 2nd stage off of it and use it as my dry suit bottle Small Stream lined and has it own regulator build in. __________________ ahhhhhhh
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9th February 2008, 09:51	#72 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Well the major problem where the sh1t is gonna hit the fan, is doing a long deep dive with O2 in the suit after a big breakfast of huevos rancheros, now you have a seriously explosive mixture of fartrox, or less commonly known as meth-ox, a known contributor to global warming, one small bit of friction, a tiny static discharge, and ka-boomie, roast diver. Im pretty sure that is the method of providing the staged explosion that was filmed in "the cave" movie. Andres Matthes was the stunt diver, and we all know where he lives, yup, mexico, look at what happened to his hair for gosh sakes. Enough concentration of meth-ox in a divers dry suit and you could even have spontaneous diver combustion, a rare killer of deep cave diver. Its the devils gas, whatever you call it, fartrox or meth-ox, beware of this deadly combination and stay away from the beans when using oxygen as a drysuit inflation gas...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!..... Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) ... PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire? I'd expect the electric current to pass across the divers wet and conductive DS exterior, a sort of Faraday's cage if I remember my college E&M. Unlikely but possible to generate sufficient heat for combustion. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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9th February 2008, 18:32	#73 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,927	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles) I'd expect the electric current to pass across the divers wet and conductive DS exterior, a sort of Faraday's cage if I remember my college E&M. Unlikely but possible to generate sufficient heat for combustion. Since your body is also vaguely conductive, some of it is going to pass through you as well as along the suit I suspect. At the very least you have a path from one hand to the other. Might be worth asking a winchman. However, that's also my reasoning for no spark building up inside the suit - the charge should be earthed to the outside through the body and through the metal parts of the suit. Again, I'm no rocket scientist. Did I mention in this thread that we tried to simulate a spark in O2? Pietzo gas lighter with inner suit material and O2 in a bag. Not a sausage - got bored trying. Same with a cigarette lighter (no gas). Took a lighter with gas to get a fire going. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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9th February 2008, 19:29	#74 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 385	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives I have also heard of those chemical things causing burns. However it is not due to it being in O2. It is just because they are not meant to be held too close to your body. Same as a hot water bottle. If you push it firmly on to your body it starts burning you. In a drysuit the squeeze probably pushed the chemical pouch too close to the body. Or the denser gas conducted more heat to the body. The burns I heard of were in a wetsuit. So cannot be DS realted. Teoman "Well, It may or may not be relevent, but there was a poster presentation at the UHMS conference last year. It reported a case of 2nd degree burns that resulted from the use of a chemical hand warmer placed down the leg of a DS. The diver was using Nitrox 36 for back gas and dry suit inflation. On descent she began to have pain in her leg, which she thought was squeeze. Inflated the suit immediately made the pain worse and she surfaced with partial thickness burns to her leg. Not really close to the same case, but related and worth thinking about." __________________
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10th February 2008, 09:42	#75 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,927	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by teomannaskali) Teoman "Well, It may or may not be relevent, but there was a poster presentation at the UHMS conference last year. It reported a case of 2nd degree burns that resulted from the use of a chemical hand warmer placed down the leg of a DS. The diver was using Nitrox 36 for back gas and dry suit inflation. On descent she began to have pain in her leg, which she thought was squeeze. Inflated the suit immediately made the pain worse and she surfaced with partial thickness burns to her leg. Not really close to the same case, but related and worth thinking about." __________________ It's very relevant. Those chemical packs, IIRC, work on the oxidation of the metal dust inside them. Somewhat naturally, using a gas with a higher amount of oxygen is going to speed up the process. Not very bright on her part. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
(Offline)

10th February 2008, 10:09	#76 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 385	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) It's very relevant. Those chemical packs, IIRC, work on the oxidation of the metal dust inside them. Somewhat naturally, using a gas with a higher amount of oxygen is going to speed up the process. Not very bright on her part. The ones that i am talking about, that caused burns to the victim in my story, are a completly sealed pouch. And the liquid inside consists mostly of salt and water. There is a coin like piece of metal inside. You slightly bend the coiny metal and it clicks. I am told that some crystal structure or something is exposed or whatever did not quite understand and the person explaining was a salesman who was just repeating what he had heard. Then the transparent liquid inside start developing crystals within and generating heat. At the end of the reaction the pouch is completely solid. No gasses involved. It is %100 rechargeable. You boil it for 10 minutes and the liquid becomes clear again. They claim that it can be recharged about 1000 times. However i had the bright idea of recharging mine on the dashboard of the car, and after about 5 recharges some gas formed inside. Still usable but a bit more inconvenient to boil as it doesnt sink. Teoman
(Offline)

10th February 2008, 13:45	#77 (permalink)
mixedangased mixedangased Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: gloucestershire Posts: 60	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction? Can this be repeated with damp material? Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver? So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it. PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire? hiya john, all you need to create a good spark is a long peice of wire and a spark plug connect the plug and wire together plug the other end to the ht lead on a petrol car and start it up with the spark plug in a bin liner of pure o2 ps i use o2 as ds gas have been for the past 5yrs +with no probs. __________________ if it ain`t broke,fix it till`it is!
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10th February 2008, 14:27	#78 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,927	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives 2 years here - no bonfire yet. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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