O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives

iain-hsm · 10th October 2006, 10:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

How to produce a static spark?
Was thinking of a balloon with a duster inside a bin liner of O2 - rub balloon and see what sparks do. Looking on the bright side, if it blows my hands off at least it will stop me from picking my nose.

Any other ideas?

My bet is you get to carry on picking!! There are two problems, 1. you need hydrogen in some of the balloons so some gets to leaks out through the balloon membrane into the surrouding bin liner. Then the smallest of sparks generated by friction is sufficiant to burn the hydrogen off in the bin liner with the oxygen feeding the effect as the balance of the balloons flare off. With no hydrogen nothing happens.

2.Sufficiant static build up and discharge sufficiantly strong enough to cause a kindling effect in thinsulate (or whatever other materials in the oxygen)

The carbon heater is a totally different issue, massive amounts of power and electrical discharge when compared to a static spark. I used to have a saying with the oxygen compressors of "Learn or Burn" in the case of static discharge (only) it proberbly nearer "Learn with no Burn" but adding any power electrical source in elavated oxygen concentrations is asking for it.

Both Barry and Mdemon have shown 7 to 14 ATA but each is specific, the type of suit, of undersuit etc etc. Look we can demonstrate oxygen and pretty much anything else burning, the question is can a friction induced spark do the job? and if so how much power is needed and at what pressure.

Mdemon · 10th October 2006, 12:13

Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction?

Can this be repeated with damp material?

Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver?

So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it.

PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire?

iain-hsm · 10th October 2006, 13:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction?

Can this be repeated with damp material?

Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver?

So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it.

PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire?

Totally agree:
But the winchman might think its a waste of a good flare!!

**PhilSiswick** · 10th October 2006, 14:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire?

It's a good point, though there must be a very large difference in magnitude between the energy earthed in this way and the kind of spark you could generate from a suit!

If you've ever been zapped by a helicopter (I have - Chinook), it's not a nice experience. I have zapped myself with a piezo lighter - there's just no comparison :-)

Mdemon · 10th October 2006, 14:48

Iain, do you reckon the pietzo lighter would be suitable to imitate a static spark?

**RichClark** · 10th October 2006, 16:06

How about using one of thhose MOSQUITO-CLICK things to generate the spark.

decoweenie · 10th October 2006, 16:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark)

...one of thhose MOSQUITO-CLICK things...

Oooh, thanks for reminding me to go look for that EXCELLENT mosquito-click thing you left for me... Did you leave one for me, can't remember ?

**RichClark** · 10th October 2006, 16:44

Yea, I think i left it... along with my wetsuit & boots

SimonK · 10th October 2006, 19:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

It's a good point, though there must be a very large difference in magnitude between the energy earthed in this way and the kind of spark you could generate from a suit!

If you've ever been zapped by a helicopter (I have - Chinook), it's not a nice experience. I have zapped myself with a piezo lighter - there's just no comparison :-)

Happy memories, spent a vastly entertaining afternoon doing helicopter static discharge tests on some kit we built. IIRC 300kV from 0.1micro farad. Huge 2 foot long arc. The test setup looked like something out of Dr Frankenstines lab, the test probe was a 10 foot fiberglass fishing pole with a silver ball on the end.

Simon

Mdemon · 10th October 2006, 20:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by SimonK)

Happy memories, spent a vastly entertaining afternoon doing helicopter static discharge tests on some kit we built. IIRC 300kV from 0.1micro farad. Huge 2 foot long arc. The test setup looked like something out of Dr Frankenstines lab, the test probe was a 10 foot fiberglass fishing pole with a silver ball on the end.

Simon

You're not putting THAT near my DS!

10th October 2006, 10:56	#61 (permalink)
iain-hsm Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Loughborough England uk Posts: 347	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) How to produce a static spark? Was thinking of a balloon with a duster inside a bin liner of O2 - rub balloon and see what sparks do. Looking on the bright side, if it blows my hands off at least it will stop me from picking my nose. Any other ideas? My bet is you get to carry on picking!! There are two problems, 1. you need hydrogen in some of the balloons so some gets to leaks out through the balloon membrane into the surrouding bin liner. Then the smallest of sparks generated by friction is sufficiant to burn the hydrogen off in the bin liner with the oxygen feeding the effect as the balance of the balloons flare off. With no hydrogen nothing happens. 2.Sufficiant static build up and discharge sufficiantly strong enough to cause a kindling effect in thinsulate (or whatever other materials in the oxygen) The carbon heater is a totally different issue, massive amounts of power and electrical discharge when compared to a static spark. I used to have a saying with the oxygen compressors of "Learn or Burn" in the case of static discharge (only) it proberbly nearer "Learn with no Burn" but adding any power electrical source in elavated oxygen concentrations is asking for it. Both Barry and Mdemon have shown 7 to 14 ATA but each is specific, the type of suit, of undersuit etc etc. Look we can demonstrate oxygen and pretty much anything else burning, the question is can a friction induced spark do the job? and if so how much power is needed and at what pressure.
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10th October 2006, 12:13	#62 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction? Can this be repeated with damp material? Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver? So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it. PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire? __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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10th October 2006, 13:38	#63 (permalink)
iain-hsm Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Loughborough England uk Posts: 347	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Iain, this is the crux of the thing for me too - is it possible to generate an electrical spark with enough energy to ignite innersuit material in oxygen using nothing more than friction? Can this be repeated with damp material? Can this magnitude realistically be generated in a suit, damp or otherwise, in fresh or salt water just by the movements of a diver? So, someone tell me how to create a decent spark and I'll do my own "Myth Busters" exercise on it. PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire? Totally agree: But the winchman might think its a waste of a good flare!!
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10th October 2006, 14:31	#64 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,095	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) PS Here's a thought... The reason winchmen don't grab the strop immediately from a helicopter is they prefer to let the strop earth the static energy generated in the rotors/helicopter first. If Diver X grabs the strop in the water, it will earth through him. He will get a fair jolt apparently, but would he suffer the further indignity of his dry suit catching fire? It's a good point, though there must be a very large difference in magnitude between the energy earthed in this way and the kind of spark you could generate from a suit! If you've ever been zapped by a helicopter (I have - Chinook), it's not a nice experience. I have zapped myself with a piezo lighter - there's just no comparison :-) __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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10th October 2006, 14:48	#65 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Iain, do you reckon the pietzo lighter would be suitable to imitate a static spark? __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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10th October 2006, 16:06	#66 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 793	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives How about using one of thhose MOSQUITO-CLICK things to generate the spark. __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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10th October 2006, 16:10	#67 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark) ...one of thhose MOSQUITO-CLICK things... Oooh, thanks for reminding me to go look for that EXCELLENT mosquito-click thing you left for me... Did you leave one for me, can't remember ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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10th October 2006, 16:44	#68 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 793	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Yea, I think i left it... along with my wetsuit & boots __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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10th October 2006, 19:51	#69 (permalink)
SimonK Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cumbria UK Posts: 231	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) It's a good point, though there must be a very large difference in magnitude between the energy earthed in this way and the kind of spark you could generate from a suit! If you've ever been zapped by a helicopter (I have - Chinook), it's not a nice experience. I have zapped myself with a piezo lighter - there's just no comparison :-) Happy memories, spent a vastly entertaining afternoon doing helicopter static discharge tests on some kit we built. IIRC 300kV from 0.1micro farad. Huge 2 foot long arc. The test setup looked like something out of Dr Frankenstines lab, the test probe was a 10 foot fiberglass fishing pole with a silver ball on the end. Simon
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10th October 2006, 20:14	#70 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: O2 for suit inflation on deep Rebreather cave dives Quote: (Originally Posted by SimonK) Happy memories, spent a vastly entertaining afternoon doing helicopter static discharge tests on some kit we built. IIRC 300kV from 0.1micro farad. Huge 2 foot long arc. The test setup looked like something out of Dr Frankenstines lab, the test probe was a 10 foot fiberglass fishing pole with a silver ball on the end. Simon You're not putting THAT near my DS! __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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