Help Needed for cylinder valve standards

deepreef · 15th September 2006, 09:20

Greetings, All:

I'd like to ask what should be a straight-forward question, but one for which a few hours on Google failed to yield an answer. I hope this is the right forum in which to post this question.

In the U.S., most gas supply companies provide industrial oxygen cylinders equipped with CGA-540 valves, and helium cylinders with CGA-580 valves. CGA-540 (Oxygen) valves have male threads, and the fittings have a female -thread nut with a round-tip nipple for the valve side, and usually 1/4" NPT male threads on the other.

CGA-580 (helium) valves have female threads (same size & pitch as a standard DIN regulator, as I recall), and the fittings are male threads on the nut, and a cone-shaped nipple that again usually converts to 1/4" NPT male threads.

More detailed info on the threads of various CGA fittings can be seen here (among other web sites):
[Link: http://www.dra.co.kr/viewgroup_31_e.html]

I do a fair bit of international traveling throughout the Pacific (and elsewhere), and have found that different countries use different standard fittings. You'd think I'd have sorted this all out by now; but no -- the question of what fittings to expect at different destinations is always a headache. Often times the standard oxygen cylinder valve has female threads, which are the same thread size as the U.S helium (CGA-580/SCUBA DIN), and aslightly different nipple (has an o-ring on the cone-shape face of the nipple). This seems to be the Australian standard for industrial oxygen cylinders, and it's one I encounter often enough that I can deal with it pretty easily.

I am currently faced with a new one for me: our supply of helium for an upcoming expedition has valves with *male* threads, that look just about the same as U.S. CGA-540 (oxygen). I say "just about", because I'm not completely certain that it's the same. These threads are about 20-21 mm OD, and I can't quite tell (from photos that have been sent to me) whether the nipple should be cone-shaped (like U.S. helium and Australian Oxygen) or rounded (like U.S. oxygen).

Since it would really SUCK to get down there and find out we have the wrong fittings, I'd like to get some confidence about what these threads and nipple-shape are.

I *think* the helium cylinders came from France, and my Google search suggests that the standard for helium in at least a couple of European countries involves male threads on the helium cylinder valve -- but as yet I have been unable to track down the European equivalent valve standards to the U.S. CGA standards.

So I guess my questions are:

1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.?

2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards?

3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world?

My goal is to assemble a complete set of international standard helium & oxygen fittings, so it isn't always so tedious to make sure I have the right fittings everytime I go somewhere new.

Another question I have is whether there is a standard in Europe/Australia/Asia/etc. equivalent to the U.S. 1/4" NPT (tapered) threads. That is, can I assume that most places in the world will have fittings that convert to this same thread standard; or are there different pipe-thread standards in different countries?

I have some photos of the helium valves I am trying now to confirm fitting specs for, if that might help someone figure this out.

I really should know the answers to these questions already, and I apologize for such a long post about what should be a relatively straight-forward issue. But the fact that it still plagues me after two decades of doing this stuff in remote parts of the world, convinces me that the problem is not as straightforward as it ought to be.

Many thanks in advance to all who can help!

Aloha,
Rich

***EBT*** · 15th September 2006, 11:34

Rich,

yeah, we've seen similar fittings in finland/sweden. I'd expect it to be a DIN standard of some sort that would now be part of an EN (European Norm).

I'll see what I can dig up...

/Zak

***jradomski*** · 15th September 2006, 19:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by deepreef)

Greetings, All:

I'd like to ask what should be a straight-forward question, but one for which a few hours on Google failed to yield an answer. I hope this is the right forum in which to post this question.

In the U.S., most gas supply companies provide industrial oxygen cylinders equipped with CGA-540 valves, and helium cylinders with CGA-580 valves. CGA-540 (Oxygen) valves have male threads, and the fittings have a female -thread nut with a round-tip nipple for the valve side, and usually 1/4" NPT male threads on the other.

CGA-580 (helium) valves have female threads (same size & pitch as a standard DIN regulator, as I recall), and the fittings are male threads on the nut, and a cone-shaped nipple that again usually converts to 1/4" NPT male threads.

More detailed info on the threads of various CGA fittings can be seen here (among other web sites):
[Link: http://www.dra.co.kr/viewgroup_31_e.html]

I do a fair bit of international traveling throughout the Pacific (and elsewhere), and have found that different countries use different standard fittings. You'd think I'd have sorted this all out by now; but no -- the question of what fittings to expect at different destinations is always a headache. Often times the standard oxygen cylinder valve has female threads, which are the same thread size as the U.S helium (CGA-580/SCUBA DIN), and aslightly different nipple (has an o-ring on the cone-shape face of the nipple). This seems to be the Australian standard for industrial oxygen cylinders, and it's one I encounter often enough that I can deal with it pretty easily.

I am currently faced with a new one for me: our supply of helium for an upcoming expedition has valves with *male* threads, that look just about the same as U.S. CGA-540 (oxygen). I say "just about", because I'm not completely certain that it's the same. These threads are about 20-21 mm OD, and I can't quite tell (from photos that have been sent to me) whether the nipple should be cone-shaped (like U.S. helium and Australian Oxygen) or rounded (like U.S. oxygen).

Since it would really SUCK to get down there and find out we have the wrong fittings, I'd like to get some confidence about what these threads and nipple-shape are.

I *think* the helium cylinders came from France, and my Google search suggests that the standard for helium in at least a couple of European countries involves male threads on the helium cylinder valve -- but as yet I have been unable to track down the European equivalent valve standards to the U.S. CGA standards.

So I guess my questions are:

1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.?

2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards?

3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world?

My goal is to assemble a complete set of international standard helium & oxygen fittings, so it isn't always so tedious to make sure I have the right fittings everytime I go somewhere new.

Another question I have is whether there is a standard in Europe/Australia/Asia/etc. equivalent to the U.S. 1/4" NPT (tapered) threads. That is, can I assume that most places in the world will have fittings that convert to this same thread standard; or are there different pipe-thread standards in different countries?

I have some photos of the helium valves I am trying now to confirm fitting specs for, if that might help someone figure this out.

I really should know the answers to these questions already, and I apologize for such a long post about what should be a relatively straight-forward issue. But the fact that it still plagues me after two decades of doing this stuff in remote parts of the world, convinces me that the problem is not as straightforward as it ought to be.

Many thanks in advance to all who can help!

Aloha,
Rich

sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders..

deepreef · 15th September 2006, 20:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

yeah, we've seen similar fittings in finland/sweden. I'd expect it to be a DIN standard of some sort that would now be part of an EN (European Norm).
/Zak

Thanks, Zak -- I'd be very interested in whatever you can find.

Aloha,
Rich

deepreef · 15th September 2006, 20:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders..

Thanks, Joe -- I had the same thing the last time I was in New Guinea (both the same), except in that case, both valve threads were *female* (same as CGA-580 -- standard helium -- in the U.S.). In this case, however, the helium cylinders have *male* threads -- like the U.S. oxygen standard (CGA-580).

Do you recall if the valve-side threads on the cylinders in Indonesia were male or female? If male, do you happen to recall anything about the shape of the nipple (rounded or cone-shaped), and perhaps even what thread size?

Thanks!

Rich

J. V. · 15th September 2006, 21:36

Quote:

1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.?

Yes, french helium standard is a clockwise male thread (on the tank), diameter around 21 mm (exactly : 21,7 x 1,814).
It's the same standard than... oxygen in Italy !

Quote:

2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards?

There is many many standards around the world, so it's possible some are analogous to CGA, but it's chance, like french helium and italian oxygen.

Quote:

3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world?

You can found some of them here :
W+S Water Safety GmbH - Sauerstoff-, Nitrox-, Luft-Adapter

J. V. · 15th September 2006, 21:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders..

Perhaps cause they use same tanks for different gas. That's what we have found in Egypt last time, our helium tanks had big painted letters which said : OXYGEN.
That's the Inch' Allah standard !

aquaxel · 16th September 2006, 05:49

it is a common problem.

the solution is to bring a set of adapters. if u dont have one for the specific cylinder any average metal workshop can make one.

deepreef · 16th September 2006, 06:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by J. V.)

Yes, french helium standard is a clockwise male thread (on the tank), diameter around 21 mm (exactly : 21,7 x 1,814).
It's the same standard than... oxygen in Italy !

There is many many standards around the world, so it's possible some are analogous to CGA, but it's chance, like french helium and italian oxygen.

You can found some of them here :
W+S Water Safety GmbH - Sauerstoff-, Nitrox-, Luft-Adapter

Many thanks, Jacques. These are important and useful clues. I'm slowly zeroing in on it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel)

the solution is to bring a set of adapters. if u dont have one for the specific cylinder any average metal workshop can make one.

Yes -- that's exactly what I'm trying to do -- but I need to know what the specs for this particular fitting are. Before I can have a machinist make one, I first need to know the geometry of the valve connection. In that case, I'd probably be able to buy some existing adapters.

Right now it's looking like a British "bullnose" fitting, but not sure yet.

Thanks to all for helping on this!

Rich

aquaxel · 16th September 2006, 06:22

to get a copy of the cylinder valve threads use a candle with the appropriete thicknes and screw it in. just make sure u keep it cool if in a hot climate. with this the metal shop can determine the specs for cutting the adapter.

15th September 2006, 09:20	#1 (permalink)
deepreef New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 29	Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Greetings, All: I'd like to ask what should be a straight-forward question, but one for which a few hours on Google failed to yield an answer. I hope this is the right forum in which to post this question. In the U.S., most gas supply companies provide industrial oxygen cylinders equipped with CGA-540 valves, and helium cylinders with CGA-580 valves. CGA-540 (Oxygen) valves have male threads, and the fittings have a female -thread nut with a round-tip nipple for the valve side, and usually 1/4" NPT male threads on the other. CGA-580 (helium) valves have female threads (same size & pitch as a standard DIN regulator, as I recall), and the fittings are male threads on the nut, and a cone-shaped nipple that again usually converts to 1/4" NPT male threads. More detailed info on the threads of various CGA fittings can be seen here (among other web sites): [Link: http://www.dra.co.kr/viewgroup_31_e.html] I do a fair bit of international traveling throughout the Pacific (and elsewhere), and have found that different countries use different standard fittings. You'd think I'd have sorted this all out by now; but no -- the question of what fittings to expect at different destinations is always a headache. Often times the standard oxygen cylinder valve has female threads, which are the same thread size as the U.S helium (CGA-580/SCUBA DIN), and aslightly different nipple (has an o-ring on the cone-shape face of the nipple). This seems to be the Australian standard for industrial oxygen cylinders, and it's one I encounter often enough that I can deal with it pretty easily. I am currently faced with a new one for me: our supply of helium for an upcoming expedition has valves with male threads, that look just about the same as U.S. CGA-540 (oxygen). I say "just about", because I'm not completely certain that it's the same. These threads are about 20-21 mm OD, and I can't quite tell (from photos that have been sent to me) whether the nipple should be cone-shaped (like U.S. helium and Australian Oxygen) or rounded (like U.S. oxygen). Since it would really SUCK to get down there and find out we have the wrong fittings, I'd like to get some confidence about what these threads and nipple-shape are. I think the helium cylinders came from France, and my Google search suggests that the standard for helium in at least a couple of European countries involves male threads on the helium cylinder valve -- but as yet I have been unable to track down the European equivalent valve standards to the U.S. CGA standards. So I guess my questions are: 1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.? 2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards? 3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world? My goal is to assemble a complete set of international standard helium & oxygen fittings, so it isn't always so tedious to make sure I have the right fittings everytime I go somewhere new. Another question I have is whether there is a standard in Europe/Australia/Asia/etc. equivalent to the U.S. 1/4" NPT (tapered) threads. That is, can I assume that most places in the world will have fittings that convert to this same thread standard; or are there different pipe-thread standards in different countries? I have some photos of the helium valves I am trying now to confirm fitting specs for, if that might help someone figure this out. I really should know the answers to these questions already, and I apologize for such a long post about what should be a relatively straight-forward issue. But the fact that it still plagues me after two decades of doing this stuff in remote parts of the world, convinces me that the problem is not as straightforward as it ought to be. Many thanks in advance to all who can help! Aloha, Rich
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15th September 2006, 11:34	#2 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,855	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Rich, yeah, we've seen similar fittings in finland/sweden. I'd expect it to be a DIN standard of some sort that would now be part of an EN (European Norm). I'll see what I can dig up... /Zak __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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15th September 2006, 19:32	#3 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: (Originally Posted by deepreef) Greetings, All: I'd like to ask what should be a straight-forward question, but one for which a few hours on Google failed to yield an answer. I hope this is the right forum in which to post this question. In the U.S., most gas supply companies provide industrial oxygen cylinders equipped with CGA-540 valves, and helium cylinders with CGA-580 valves. CGA-540 (Oxygen) valves have male threads, and the fittings have a female -thread nut with a round-tip nipple for the valve side, and usually 1/4" NPT male threads on the other. CGA-580 (helium) valves have female threads (same size & pitch as a standard DIN regulator, as I recall), and the fittings are male threads on the nut, and a cone-shaped nipple that again usually converts to 1/4" NPT male threads. More detailed info on the threads of various CGA fittings can be seen here (among other web sites): [Link: http://www.dra.co.kr/viewgroup_31_e.html] I do a fair bit of international traveling throughout the Pacific (and elsewhere), and have found that different countries use different standard fittings. You'd think I'd have sorted this all out by now; but no -- the question of what fittings to expect at different destinations is always a headache. Often times the standard oxygen cylinder valve has female threads, which are the same thread size as the U.S helium (CGA-580/SCUBA DIN), and aslightly different nipple (has an o-ring on the cone-shape face of the nipple). This seems to be the Australian standard for industrial oxygen cylinders, and it's one I encounter often enough that I can deal with it pretty easily. I am currently faced with a new one for me: our supply of helium for an upcoming expedition has valves with male threads, that look just about the same as U.S. CGA-540 (oxygen). I say "just about", because I'm not completely certain that it's the same. These threads are about 20-21 mm OD, and I can't quite tell (from photos that have been sent to me) whether the nipple should be cone-shaped (like U.S. helium and Australian Oxygen) or rounded (like U.S. oxygen). Since it would really SUCK to get down there and find out we have the wrong fittings, I'd like to get some confidence about what these threads and nipple-shape are. I think the helium cylinders came from France, and my Google search suggests that the standard for helium in at least a couple of European countries involves male threads on the helium cylinder valve -- but as yet I have been unable to track down the European equivalent valve standards to the U.S. CGA standards. So I guess my questions are: 1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.? 2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards? 3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world? My goal is to assemble a complete set of international standard helium & oxygen fittings, so it isn't always so tedious to make sure I have the right fittings everytime I go somewhere new. Another question I have is whether there is a standard in Europe/Australia/Asia/etc. equivalent to the U.S. 1/4" NPT (tapered) threads. That is, can I assume that most places in the world will have fittings that convert to this same thread standard; or are there different pipe-thread standards in different countries? I have some photos of the helium valves I am trying now to confirm fitting specs for, if that might help someone figure this out. I really should know the answers to these questions already, and I apologize for such a long post about what should be a relatively straight-forward issue. But the fact that it still plagues me after two decades of doing this stuff in remote parts of the world, convinces me that the problem is not as straightforward as it ought to be. Many thanks in advance to all who can help! Aloha, Rich sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th September 2006, 20:39	#4 (permalink)
deepreef New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 29	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) yeah, we've seen similar fittings in finland/sweden. I'd expect it to be a DIN standard of some sort that would now be part of an EN (European Norm). /Zak Thanks, Zak -- I'd be very interested in whatever you can find. Aloha, Rich
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15th September 2006, 20:43	#5 (permalink)
deepreef New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 29	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders.. Thanks, Joe -- I had the same thing the last time I was in New Guinea (both the same), except in that case, both valve threads were female (same as CGA-580 -- standard helium -- in the U.S.). In this case, however, the helium cylinders have male threads -- like the U.S. oxygen standard (CGA-580). Do you recall if the valve-side threads on the cylinders in Indonesia were male or female? If male, do you happen to recall anything about the shape of the nipple (rounded or cone-shaped), and perhaps even what thread size? Thanks! Rich
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15th September 2006, 21:36	#6 (permalink)
J. V. Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet rEvo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lot & Savoie Posts: 231	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: 1) Can anyone confirm for me what the thread and nipple-shape specs are for an industrial helium cylinder -- probably from Europe -- with male right-handed (clockwise) threads that appear to be about 20-21mm O.D.? Yes, french helium standard is a clockwise male thread (on the tank), diameter around 21 mm (exactly : 21,7 x 1,814). It's the same standard than... oxygen in Italy ! Quote: 2) Are there any European (or Australian, or any other country) standards analagous to the U.S. CGA standards? There is many many standards around the world, so it's possible some are analogous to CGA, but it's chance, like french helium and italian oxygen. Quote: 3) Does anyone have a chart or table or set of diagrams of all the variations of what size & shape helium & oxygen cylinder valves might come in, in different parts of the world? You can found some of them here : W+S Water Safety GmbH - Sauerstoff-, Nitrox-, Luft-Adapter __________________ -------------------- Jacques NPSFQQA-EDS IT # 007 (remué non agité) Last edited by J. V. : 15th September 2006 at 21:49.
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15th September 2006, 21:57	#7 (permalink)
J. V. Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet rEvo Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lot & Savoie Posts: 231	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) sounds like the valves I encountered in Indonesia.. They had the same fitting for both the Oxygen and Helium cylinders.. Perhaps cause they use same tanks for different gas. That's what we have found in Egypt last time, our helium tanks had big painted letters which said : OXYGEN. That's the Inch' Allah standard ! __________________ -------------------- Jacques NPSFQQA-EDS IT # 007 (remué non agité)
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16th September 2006, 05:49	#8 (permalink)
aquaxel aquanaut Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: cyprus Posts: 529	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards it is a common problem. the solution is to bring a set of adapters. if u dont have one for the specific cylinder any average metal workshop can make one. __________________ rgds aquaxel www.aquatec-innerspace.com
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16th September 2006, 06:16	#9 (permalink)
deepreef New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 29	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards Quote: (Originally Posted by J. V.) Yes, french helium standard is a clockwise male thread (on the tank), diameter around 21 mm (exactly : 21,7 x 1,814). It's the same standard than... oxygen in Italy ! There is many many standards around the world, so it's possible some are analogous to CGA, but it's chance, like french helium and italian oxygen. You can found some of them here : W+S Water Safety GmbH - Sauerstoff-, Nitrox-, Luft-Adapter Many thanks, Jacques. These are important and useful clues. I'm slowly zeroing in on it. Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel) the solution is to bring a set of adapters. if u dont have one for the specific cylinder any average metal workshop can make one. Yes -- that's exactly what I'm trying to do -- but I need to know what the specs for this particular fitting are. Before I can have a machinist make one, I first need to know the geometry of the valve connection. In that case, I'd probably be able to buy some existing adapters. Right now it's looking like a British "bullnose" fitting, but not sure yet. Thanks to all for helping on this! Rich
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16th September 2006, 06:22	#10 (permalink)
aquaxel aquanaut Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: cyprus Posts: 529	Re: Help Needed for cylinder valve standards to get a copy of the cylinder valve threads use a candle with the appropriete thicknes and screw it in. just make sure u keep it cool if in a hot climate. with this the metal shop can determine the specs for cutting the adapter. __________________ rgds aquaxel www.aquatec-innerspace.com
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