computer failure poll

Broko · 13th September 2006, 13:32

Hi all,
I have posted a poll in the accident forum about getting DCS whilst using deco computers. (normal dive, no incident but symptoms non the less).
for now the results seems very interesting.
so please
1. go and vote
2. look at the results.
3. give your opininon, here or there about what seems to be a very bad situation.
what I can see so far is that 30% of the divers got bent at least once while using a computer.

this info needs to go further!!!!
this means the dive comps are not reliable for a lot of us.
diving tables for recreational diving are safe for 99% of the people. I do not think the technical society should be sutisfied with 70% !!!!!!!

Broko

johnv · 13th September 2006, 13:51

What about "computer failed but I didn't get bent" That would be interesting too.

John

Broko · 13th September 2006, 13:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by johnv)

What about "computer failed but I didn't get bent" That would be interesting too.

John

yes it would, go fot it...

O.C.Diver · 13th September 2006, 16:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Broko)

what I can see so far is that 30% of the divers got bent at least once while using a computer.

this info needs to go further!!!!
this means the dive comps are not reliable for a lot of us.
diving tables for recreational diving are safe for 99% of the people. I do not think the technical society should be sutisfied with 70% !!!!!!!

Broko

I think you are missing quite a bit here. The average recreational diver logs less than 100 dives in their lifetime. There are many of us who log 100+ dives per year. Secondly, most recreational divers almost never approach the NDL. Think about the boat loads of divers in Florida and the Carribean who are diving reefs in 40' to 60' of water every day. If you almost never approach the NDL, how could you discuss whether a particular computer is safe or not? This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day.

Ted

dteubner · 14th September 2006, 00:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

I think you are missing quite a bit here. The average recreational diver logs less than 100 dives in their lifetime. There are many of us who log 100+ dives per year. Secondly, most recreational divers almost never approach the NDL. Think about the boat loads of divers in Florida and the Carribean who are diving reefs in 40' to 60' of water every day. If you almost never approach the NDL, how could you discuss whether a particular computer is safe or not? This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day.

Ted

Absolutely.

All computers and dive planning programs use mathematical models that have not been scientifically tested at the depths we are diving. Most commercial operators and navies abandoned deep bounce diving 35 or more years ago because it was difficult to do safely.

I think Ted's point is that, if you believe the survey, it probably represents a rate of DCI of less than 1%. Which is pretty much what you'd expect.

Dave T

Broko · 14th September 2006, 08:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by dteubner)

Absolutely.

All computers and dive planning programs use mathematical models that have not been scientifically tested at the depths we are diving. Most commercial operators and navies abandoned deep bounce diving 35 or more years ago because it was difficult to do safely.

I think Ted's point is that, if you believe the survey, it probably represents a rate of DCI of less than 1%. Which is pretty much what you'd expect.

Dave T

all this may be true but: I personaly logged about 5000 dives with no incident with recreational diving, including weeks of 5-7 dives a day as a diving instructor.
within about 50 logged trimix dives I got mild symptoms twice.
the computers are not suposed to keep us on the limit but to make sure (with resonable percentage) that we will not get bent. I got the symptoms diving on 50% saftey factor. the max the comp can offer. what else could I do??? (I know I can "cheat" the comp. by diving with let say 100% o2 and telling the comp its only 75%, but I don't think I am suppose to do that). I think the computer should keep us safe and if it doesn't the software should be changed. also, i don't think in recreational diving the percent of dcs is 1% I think its 1% of the divers... but I need to check this....

Broko · 14th September 2006, 08:48

This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day.

Ted[/quote]

yes, but these technical computers should take into consideration that the people using them do technical diving. these are not Sunto computers that we rape to go deep. these are highly professional technical gear.

you would be right if I was to compare these very different dives with the same recreational algorithem.

O.C.Diver · 14th September 2006, 12:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Broko)

within about 50 logged trimix dives I got mild symptoms twice.
the computers are not suposed to keep us on the limit but to make sure (with resonable percentage) that we will not get bent. I got the symptoms diving on 50% saftey factor. the max the comp can offer. what else could I do??? I think the computer should keep us safe and if it doesn't the software should be changed. also, i don't think in recreational diving the percent of dcs is 1% I think its 1% of the divers... but I need to check this....

Don't take this personally, but maybe it's you and not the computer. Some people's body's are more predisposed to DCS symptoms. I have been teaching technical diving for a long time and found very early on that people vary a great deal in what is required for safe tables. I have a regular customer who is 75 pounds over weight, is only in fair shape, and is 10 years older than me (48). I am 10 pounds under weight, good physical shape and younger. Yet this guy never shows symptoms, uses a 5% conservative factor on his Cochran EMC-20H, and surfaces immediately after the computer clears. I have to add an extra 5 to 15 minutes between 20' and the surface to the same computer with the same conservative setting, to be clean every time. Bottom line, figure out what works for you and add it to your profiles.

Ted

13th September 2006, 13:32	#1 (permalink)
Broko New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Eilat, Red Sea Israel Posts: 23	computer failure poll Hi all, I have posted a poll in the accident forum about getting DCS whilst using deco computers. (normal dive, no incident but symptoms non the less). for now the results seems very interesting. so please 1. go and vote 2. look at the results. 3. give your opininon, here or there about what seems to be a very bad situation. what I can see so far is that 30% of the divers got bent at least once while using a computer. this info needs to go further!!!! this means the dive comps are not reliable for a lot of us. diving tables for recreational diving are safe for 99% of the people. I do not think the technical society should be sutisfied with 70% !!!!!!! Broko __________________ Eran Brokovich Marine Twilight-Zone Research & Exploration - MTRX The Interuniversity Institute for Marine Sciences of Eilat (IUI). H. Steinitz Marine Biology Laboratory. Tel: +972-8-6360-157 P.O. Box 469 Eilat 88103 Israel
(Offline)

13th September 2006, 13:51	#2 (permalink)
johnv Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Posts: 142	Re: computer failure poll What about "computer failed but I didn't get bent" That would be interesting too. John
(Online)

13th September 2006, 13:55	#3 (permalink)
Broko New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Eilat, Red Sea Israel Posts: 23	Re: computer failure poll Quote: (Originally Posted by johnv) What about "computer failed but I didn't get bent" That would be interesting too. John yes it would, go fot it... __________________ Eran Brokovich Marine Twilight-Zone Research & Exploration - MTRX The Interuniversity Institute for Marine Sciences of Eilat (IUI). H. Steinitz Marine Biology Laboratory. Tel: +972-8-6360-157 P.O. Box 469 Eilat 88103 Israel
(Offline)

13th September 2006, 16:12	#4 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 221	Re: computer failure poll Quote: (Originally Posted by Broko) what I can see so far is that 30% of the divers got bent at least once while using a computer. this info needs to go further!!!! this means the dive comps are not reliable for a lot of us. diving tables for recreational diving are safe for 99% of the people. I do not think the technical society should be sutisfied with 70% !!!!!!! Broko I think you are missing quite a bit here. The average recreational diver logs less than 100 dives in their lifetime. There are many of us who log 100+ dives per year. Secondly, most recreational divers almost never approach the NDL. Think about the boat loads of divers in Florida and the Carribean who are diving reefs in 40' to 60' of water every day. If you almost never approach the NDL, how could you discuss whether a particular computer is safe or not? This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

14th September 2006, 00:59	#5 (permalink)
dteubner Pedant Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 217	Re: computer failure poll Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) I think you are missing quite a bit here. The average recreational diver logs less than 100 dives in their lifetime. There are many of us who log 100+ dives per year. Secondly, most recreational divers almost never approach the NDL. Think about the boat loads of divers in Florida and the Carribean who are diving reefs in 40' to 60' of water every day. If you almost never approach the NDL, how could you discuss whether a particular computer is safe or not? This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day. Ted Absolutely. All computers and dive planning programs use mathematical models that have not been scientifically tested at the depths we are diving. Most commercial operators and navies abandoned deep bounce diving 35 or more years ago because it was difficult to do safely. I think Ted's point is that, if you believe the survey, it probably represents a rate of DCI of less than 1%. Which is pretty much what you'd expect. Dave T
(Offline)

14th September 2006, 08:45	#6 (permalink)
Broko New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Eilat, Red Sea Israel Posts: 23	Re: computer failure poll Quote: (Originally Posted by dteubner) Absolutely. All computers and dive planning programs use mathematical models that have not been scientifically tested at the depths we are diving. Most commercial operators and navies abandoned deep bounce diving 35 or more years ago because it was difficult to do safely. I think Ted's point is that, if you believe the survey, it probably represents a rate of DCI of less than 1%. Which is pretty much what you'd expect. Dave T all this may be true but: I personaly logged about 5000 dives with no incident with recreational diving, including weeks of 5-7 dives a day as a diving instructor. within about 50 logged trimix dives I got mild symptoms twice. the computers are not suposed to keep us on the limit but to make sure (with resonable percentage) that we will not get bent. I got the symptoms diving on 50% saftey factor. the max the comp can offer. what else could I do??? (I know I can "cheat" the comp. by diving with let say 100% o2 and telling the comp its only 75%, but I don't think I am suppose to do that). I think the computer should keep us safe and if it doesn't the software should be changed. also, i don't think in recreational diving the percent of dcs is 1% I think its 1% of the divers... but I need to check this.... __________________ Eran Brokovich Marine Twilight-Zone Research & Exploration - MTRX The Interuniversity Institute for Marine Sciences of Eilat (IUI). H. Steinitz Marine Biology Laboratory. Tel: +972-8-6360-157 P.O. Box 469 Eilat 88103 Israel
(Offline)

14th September 2006, 08:48	#7 (permalink)
Broko New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Eilat, Red Sea Israel Posts: 23	Re: computer failure poll This is kind of like comparing people who get sun burned at the beach on a rainy day versus a sunny day. Ted[/quote] yes, but these technical computers should take into consideration that the people using them do technical diving. these are not Sunto computers that we rape to go deep. these are highly professional technical gear. you would be right if I was to compare these very different dives with the same recreational algorithem. __________________ Eran Brokovich Marine Twilight-Zone Research & Exploration - MTRX The Interuniversity Institute for Marine Sciences of Eilat (IUI). H. Steinitz Marine Biology Laboratory. Tel: +972-8-6360-157 P.O. Box 469 Eilat 88103 Israel
(Offline)

14th September 2006, 12:19	#8 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 221	Re: computer failure poll Quote: (Originally Posted by Broko) within about 50 logged trimix dives I got mild symptoms twice. the computers are not suposed to keep us on the limit but to make sure (with resonable percentage) that we will not get bent. I got the symptoms diving on 50% saftey factor. the max the comp can offer. what else could I do??? I think the computer should keep us safe and if it doesn't the software should be changed. also, i don't think in recreational diving the percent of dcs is 1% I think its 1% of the divers... but I need to check this.... Don't take this personally, but maybe it's you and not the computer. Some people's body's are more predisposed to DCS symptoms. I have been teaching technical diving for a long time and found very early on that people vary a great deal in what is required for safe tables. I have a regular customer who is 75 pounds over weight, is only in fair shape, and is 10 years older than me (48). I am 10 pounds under weight, good physical shape and younger. Yet this guy never shows symptoms, uses a 5% conservative factor on his Cochran EMC-20H, and surfaces immediately after the computer clears. I have to add an extra 5 to 15 minutes between 20' and the surface to the same computer with the same conservative setting, to be clean every time. Bottom line, figure out what works for you and add it to your profiles. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode