Financial Feasablity: Dolphin mCCR conversions vs. Sport Kiss

caveseeker7

Discussing Darlene's upcoming conversion of her Dolphin into a manually controlled CCR made me wonder of the financial feasbility of such a project. Especially when compared to the Sport Kiss, which should be by design goal and price be the closest commercially available competitor.

From the 2005 Jetsam price list:
Sport KISS Rebreather Kit, Complete - $4,780.00 USD
This includes the complete rebreather, 3 K1D sensors, Oxycheq 40# Kiss Wing and A-Pac Harness, 2 Aluminum 13 cuft tanks with modular lefthand/righthand valves.

Sport KISS Rebreather Kit - $4,000 USD
This includes the complete rebreather and 3 K1D sensors, but no harness/wing and no tanks.

So for those of you who have converted their Dolphins into manually controlled CCRs, I would like to know how much the initial rebreather, the conversion and the training set you back (i.e. did you get any additional CCR training after initial SCR training).

Also, please specify major components that you build from scratch, as well as an estimate of the time you spend to built/modify the unit.

By the way, getting anyone depressed thinking about that is not my intention and I apologize for that.

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

wedivebc

There is presently no official training for CCR/Dolphin. I and others have looked into it and seems insurance is a big issue when it comes to training home built/modified units. Uless you have a friend who is a kiss instructor and is also familiar with the ccr/dolphin you may be on your own.
My ccr cost breakdown goes roughly like this.
scr unit $1500 (ebay, you don't need tanks or draeger 1st stage)
kiss valve 250
steel lp 20cuft tanks 350
ppo2 monitor 300
hs explorer 1200 second ppo2 monitor
apeks regs 300
assorted fittings 200
TMI ss backplate 165
aluminum shell 300
total $4565
Now this gives me what I consider to be one of the best built ccr/dolphins out there. There are less expensive builds out there and for sure the extra ppo2 monitor could be less than the cost of a HS explorer so you could knock 900 off for that and 350 off for steel tanks since the kiss comes without so the equivalent price of my unit would be $3315 for a cc/dolphin

Update, when looking at Ron Micjan's latest web page he is offering training for ccr/dolphin which he will probably charge the same as the kiss course $1000 but remember no c-card, just good instruction.

__________________
Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

Gregv

Here's my rough breakdown of the costs incurred putting together my CCR Dolphin. This is a timely thread, as I've been asked a few times recently how much the unit cost me, and to date I hadn't actually gone through the exercise until now (all in New Zealand pesos, I'll convert to US$ later):

SCR Dolphin complete NZ$2300
0.003" orifice + hose NZ$50
Apeks DS4+plug NZ$280
2 x steel 3L fabers NZ$300 (2nd hand)
Mark Munro 3-PP02 kit NZ$280
2 x sensors NZ$220
PVC for sensor housing NZ$50
Other bits for display NZ$200
Assorted other fittings NZ$300
Stainless + welding rods
for backplate adapter NZ$60
G-snaps NZ$300

C4 VR3 + ext sensor NZ$2500(!)

Subtotal - NZ$4340 + VR3

Total - NZ$6840

Using a rough exchange rate of US$0.70 to the NZ dollar = US$4800.
Without the VR3, we're talking US$3000, plus or minus a few bucks here and there.

This doesn't take into account any of my time, which has been substantial. I'd have to guess at a minimum of 250 hours over the past 18 months. If you factor it all in, the KISS units are certainly a viable alternative financially. The Dolphin would look a little better if the exchange rate was back down around the 45c US mark of course...

I've had no formal training in CCR diving, an issue I've been giving some thought recently. My options are limited though, as pointed out by wedivebc.

Greg

Scuba_Vixen

I think anyone who goes the ccr conversion route, does so as a labor of love. I've always learned far more about things when I've been "hands on involved" from the beginning of my interest. I don't think we expect to get off any cheaper than if we went out and got a "store bought unit", at most, we get to stretch out paying for it over time as we gather the parts together or make upgrades as funds permit.

I got a pretty good start on mine. I traded my old 4X4 Nissan pickup, '86 model ... value about $1500 for the 2 Dolphins complete with the Drager tanks and al13's.

Barely used Dolphin ..... $750

I already have the Explorer, so the O2 cell upgrade will be $300.

I'll use the al 13's for O2 ( I have a booster)

I have an al19 and an al30 I can use for dil

The big items I'm looking at:

HSE PO2 monitor ..... $500

Pair of DS4's ..... $300

Kiss valve ..... $300

Cells ..... $200

assorted adapters & fittings ..... $300

G-Snaps ..... $200


I'd like to manage the conversion for $2000, but I'm sure it'll be $2500 or so. ... such is the nature of "projects".

Even at that, I'm still under $3500 total ..... not half bad at all.


Seems as though we're all a bit less than the sport kiss, if you don't count some of Dave's frills ....


Darlene


edit: What will really be intersting, is to see how close the end result comes to the predictions I made here!

caveseeker7

Dave, Greg, thanks for the detailed breakdown of the costs of your rigs.
The training issue is a shame indeed, I was mainly wondering if any of the people using Jetsam bits just went ahead and took a class for a Jetsam breather.

If anyone else wants to breakdown the cost of their units please do. It's a subject that seems to come up on boards repeatedly, and with availability of more and more aftermarket parts also more frequently.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

wedivebc

I actually got the kiss course on my dolphin. We went through all the academic and skills for the course but I have never dove one.

__________________
Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

lizardland

Don't forget to factor time. If I'd included that in my homebuild at the rate I charge the people I work for then I could buy an Oruborusussuussus (how the f*** does he expect anyone to pay 10k for something no-one can spell?).

I guess it's like cars. I used to love doing all the work myself but now I'm happy to get a mechanic I know is a hell of a lot better than me do it rather than spend all my Saturdays with grazed knuckles and freezing in the rain.

I got to the point where I wanted to spend time diving rather than tinkering so make sure you can afford the time. And not just building but sourcing stuff, down time when you realise you don't have the part/tool you need, testing, abortive work, etc.

EBT

Interesting, does this then mean that both (or all 3) sensors can be read by the one HSE wristmount computer?

For me one of the design strengths of the KISS is the 3 fully independent sensors/displays.....

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lizardland

For me, the main design strength is that I didn't build it

Scuba_Vixen

The HSE computer reads only one cell. The PO2 monitor comes in 2 models. One reads only a single cell, the other reads 3 cells, and at 2 second intervals, scrolls to the next one in sequence. I would imagine that the single cell model can be upgaded to the 3 cell model if you add more cells in your system.

I agree that it sacrifices the total independance of the kiss setup, but i'd question whether seperate display pods actually has enough *practical* advantage to mitigate the extra bulk and clumsiness for something like wreck diving. There was a great article mentioned in another thread about the "best number of sensors" to have: Generally speaking, most issues are cell/system based, as opposed to display based. Here's the link:

http://www.airheadsscuba.com/sensors.html



Darlene

edit to add: I checked with Patrick at Oxycheq to see if the single cell PO2 monitor was upgradable to the 3 cell version. He said not that he knew of. Next time I chat with Gene, I'll ask him. It may be possible, but not common.