Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers?

Mark Chase · 8th September 2006, 13:35

[quote]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

There was a recent thread about a bunch of numbty's dragging the buoy down to their stop depth and just hanging there like a bunch of grapes instead of bagging off.... anyway that wasn't really the point.

Oh yes I read that one

most amusing.

Quote:

I am just alittle concerned that somepeople seem to be in over their heads

Yeah but diving in water that you can stand up in is no fun

ATB

Mark Chase

PeteS · 8th September 2006, 21:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I find mumbling "for f**k sake", rolling my eyes and clicking on the next message in the list helps.

That'll do for me. Only I find myself clicking on the next thread...... or even skipping threads completely.

**Gill Envy** · 8th September 2006, 23:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

There have been a number of threads recently where rebreather or "technical" divers basic diving skills have been the cause of or led to an incident or near incident.

I don't mean to offend the people who kindly posted their experiences to the list but we've heard of people hanging on shotlines in drifts, feeling bad after a dive then not going straight to the Pot, getting lost in 20ft deep cave head pool

, not understanding O2 therapy, not understanding DSMb usage etc etc....

I understand that you can learn Rebreather after reaching the level of a Sports Diver so might not have 100's of dives under your belt but occasionally the questions asked are pretty shocking.

Am I the only one worried by this?

(I'm no Rebreather expert but I am fairly confindent in the diving skills as I teach and train with my club on a regualr basis, I wonder if those independent internet divers have as much back up?)

maybe this will feel like even more of a waste of your time but let me put forth an observation. I think we all come here to read something interesting and valuable, which is tricky since there is such a vast spectrum of experience, taste, disposition and style of diving. I think we struggle to find the line between healthy debate, civility and worthy discussion. I remember a while back when there was a lot of debate over the value of discussing fatal accidents and how worked up some people got when anyone made speculations about a given accident, even though speculation is all we will ever be left with in most cases. These discussions were not viewed as valuable by a lot of people.

Seemingly as a result there was an effort to shift the focus to bloopers and mistakes that we could all learn from and even the creation of RAID (Rebreather Accident Information Database)… all in an effort apparently to work toward a productive discussion and a good forum for learning. And yet still, here we are, it’s not enough for some people to ignore what they don’t find value in. I guess there is no way to make everyone happy.

Personally, I’d rather hear more questions and experience about what people are doing wrong with the risk that it might bore or annoy some people (myeself included) than foster an atmosphere where people feel too worried about catching flack for admitting mistakes and then don’t post. But hey, that is just me, someone who has relatively little experience and is trying to avoid getting myself or my wife killed. Rebreather World is one of the ways that I supplement my training, Jogg my deductive reasoning and generally try to avoid having to learn every lesson the hard way...and hopefully have a few laughs and make a few friends too.

Mixaddict · 9th September 2006, 00:38

Gillenvy,

Great thoughts. I think you are right on. Additionally, as we post things that may concern people, we need to be able to take the occasional flaming!

Either way, I very much enjoy the interaction and learn from "almost" all of the participants on the forum. I agree with you, and hope that everyone will be comfortable to post their thoughts, questions and observations whether positive, negative, or just plain uninformed.

Regards,
Randy

Ben Field · 10th September 2006, 14:37

Hey dudes.. chill :-)

Sorry if I was taking the mood down, I'm all up for seeing Rebreather World fostering developement- just look at Beanie, Bruce and Narked@90 discussing the Shearwater HUD- in a few messages it went from New KISS accessory to Inspiration accessory, which is great IMO.

I'm happy to see this drop, was just wondering outloud how others feel about the idiotics we see, fingers x'd that one of these tw*ts doesn't take any of us out

BEN

AD_ward9 · 11th September 2006, 08:43

Perhaps this thread can have a higher tone after all ...

It is interesting that those complaining of numpties, cause some of the problems.
The post about the line pulled down by a bunch doing deco was quite telling. Begs questions such as:

1. Why was so much taken to get a line to the wreck on that dive? In the UK we drop a shot onto the wreck instead of anchoring the wreck. That way we get the wreck in about 30 seconds, compared to say the 6 hours taken by a certain skipper (US=Captain), to anchor the Doria, who had been there more often than anyone else so had no excuse.

2. The only credible reason I have heard for anchoring into wrecks is that divers can reel themselves to the surface from the wreck. This causes accidents with cut lines left on wrecks, but that aside, and also ignoring the current issues, why was that method not used as the shot seems to have been fixed fairly well on the sea bed?

3. Why was the diver exhausted pulling himself down the shot? We do not pull ourselves down shots, otherwise the shot moves. Descending is easy.

4. Why was the line not rigged properly, so the buoy stays on the surface no matter what the current or the number of numpties hanging on it? This means the bouy is not tied to the end of a bit of rope for currents, but put it on a slide shackle. Also, use a large enough buoy. Rigging up a nice trapeze does not take a lot of time, and once done, it is done for all. If there is a current, people just hang on the bar and snap off. Any decent dive plan in an area where there is a current, does this. Or perhaps not.

The point I am trying to make is, we all have things to learn, even those who initiate threads pointing out things about the muppets population. Instead of being frustrated, just enjoy the show of watching other people learn.
Alex

chrismc · 11th September 2006, 09:45

The lack of skills of some divers can be worrying, but in my experiance there is always a percentage of divers in this category regardless of equipment, agency or level.

There are a lot of good instructors, but there are also a proportion of bad ones, and trainees may not know the diffrence.

In one of my previous clubs an advanced instructor (BSAC) took a sports diver (supposedly limited to 35m) to 67m on air. Whats worse is the instructor had never been to this depth either. I left the club about this point.

The advantage of forums like these is divers who make stupid mistakes can be corrected and shown the right way rather than being riddiculed. I also think its worthwhile trying to understand why these divers made the mistakes, then the source can be addressed.

1) Lack of training
2) Poor training
3) No experiance of this (e.g. warm water diver comes to the uk)
4) Sometimes ppl just make dumb mistakes.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 12th September 2006, 05:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Perhaps this thread can have a higher tone after all ...

It is interesting that those complaining of numpties, cause some of the problems.
The post about the line pulled down by a bunch doing deco was quite telling about the person posting. Begs questions such as:

1. Why was so much taken to get a line to the wreck on that dive? In the UK we drop a shot onto the wreck instead of anchoring the wreck. That way we get the wreck in about 30 seconds, compared to say the 6 hours taken by a certain skipper (US=Captain), to anchor the Doria, who had been there more often than anyone else so had no excuse.

2. The only credible reason I have heard for anchoring into wrecks is that divers can reel themselves to the surface from the wreck. This causes accidents with cut lines left on wrecks, but that aside, and also ignoring the current issues, why was that method not used as the shot seems to have been fixed fairly well on the sea bed?

3. Why was the diver exhausted pulling himself down the shot? We do not pull ourselves down shots, otherwise the shot moves. Descending is easy.

4. Why was the line not rigged properly, so the buoy stays on the surface no matter what the current or the number of numpties hanging on it? This means the bouy is not tied to the end of a bit of rope for currents, but put it on a slide shackle. Also, use a large enough buoy. Rigging up a nice trapeze does not take a lot of time, and once done, it is done for all. If there is a current, people just hang on the bar and snap off. Any decent dive plan in an area where there is a current, does this. Or perhaps not.

The point I am trying to make is, we all have things to learn, even those who initiate threads pointing out things about the muppets population. Instead of being frustrated, just enjoy the show of watching other people learn.
Alex

You could have just asked about these things in the thread, and I would have answered them. So, I am not going to hijack this thread to answer.

You might be surprised to find that I think that you raise some good questions, and you might also be surprised at my answers to them.

So, I would ask that you not state that the post is "quite telling about the person posting" under the circumstances. Fair enough?

And now, back to the content of the thread . . . .

8th September 2006, 13:35	#11 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? [quote] Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) There was a recent thread about a bunch of numbty's dragging the buoy down to their stop depth and just hanging there like a bunch of grapes instead of bagging off.... anyway that wasn't really the point. Oh yes I read that one most amusing. Quote: I am just alittle concerned that somepeople seem to be in over their heads Yeah but diving in water that you can stand up in is no fun ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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8th September 2006, 21:39	#12 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 533	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I find mumbling "for f**k sake", rolling my eyes and clicking on the next message in the list helps. That'll do for me. Only I find myself clicking on the next thread...... or even skipping threads completely. __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
(Offline)

8th September 2006, 23:25	#13 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) There have been a number of threads recently where rebreather or "technical" divers basic diving skills have been the cause of or led to an incident or near incident. I don't mean to offend the people who kindly posted their experiences to the list but we've heard of people hanging on shotlines in drifts, feeling bad after a dive then not going straight to the Pot, getting lost in 20ft deep cave head pool , not understanding O2 therapy, not understanding DSMb usage etc etc.... I understand that you can learn Rebreather after reaching the level of a Sports Diver so might not have 100's of dives under your belt but occasionally the questions asked are pretty shocking. Am I the only one worried by this? (I'm no Rebreather expert but I am fairly confindent in the diving skills as I teach and train with my club on a regualr basis, I wonder if those independent internet divers have as much back up?) maybe this will feel like even more of a waste of your time but let me put forth an observation. I think we all come here to read something interesting and valuable, which is tricky since there is such a vast spectrum of experience, taste, disposition and style of diving. I think we struggle to find the line between healthy debate, civility and worthy discussion. I remember a while back when there was a lot of debate over the value of discussing fatal accidents and how worked up some people got when anyone made speculations about a given accident, even though speculation is all we will ever be left with in most cases. These discussions were not viewed as valuable by a lot of people. Seemingly as a result there was an effort to shift the focus to bloopers and mistakes that we could all learn from and even the creation of RAID (Rebreather Accident Information Database)… all in an effort apparently to work toward a productive discussion and a good forum for learning. And yet still, here we are, it’s not enough for some people to ignore what they don’t find value in. I guess there is no way to make everyone happy. Personally, I’d rather hear more questions and experience about what people are doing wrong with the risk that it might bore or annoy some people (myeself included) than foster an atmosphere where people feel too worried about catching flack for admitting mistakes and then don’t post. But hey, that is just me, someone who has relatively little experience and is trying to avoid getting myself or my wife killed. Rebreather World is one of the ways that I supplement my training, Jogg my deductive reasoning and generally try to avoid having to learn every lesson the hard way...and hopefully have a few laughs and make a few friends too. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 8th September 2006 at 23:29.
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9th September 2006, 00:38	#14 (permalink)
Mixaddict Always Learning! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 476	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Gillenvy, Great thoughts. I think you are right on. Additionally, as we post things that may concern people, we need to be able to take the occasional flaming! Either way, I very much enjoy the interaction and learn from "almost" all of the participants on the forum. I agree with you, and hope that everyone will be comfortable to post their thoughts, questions and observations whether positive, negative, or just plain uninformed. Regards, Randy __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
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10th September 2006, 14:37	#15 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,627	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Hey dudes.. chill :-) Sorry if I was taking the mood down, I'm all up for seeing Rebreather World fostering developement- just look at Beanie, Bruce and Narked@90 discussing the Shearwater HUD- in a few messages it went from New KISS accessory to Inspiration accessory, which is great IMO. I'm happy to see this drop, was just wondering outloud how others feel about the idiotics we see, fingers x'd that one of these twts doesn't take any of us out BEN __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM!* Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

11th September 2006, 08:43	#16 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,868	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Perhaps this thread can have a higher tone after all ... It is interesting that those complaining of numpties, cause some of the problems. The post about the line pulled down by a bunch doing deco was quite telling. Begs questions such as: 1. Why was so much taken to get a line to the wreck on that dive? In the UK we drop a shot onto the wreck instead of anchoring the wreck. That way we get the wreck in about 30 seconds, compared to say the 6 hours taken by a certain skipper (US=Captain), to anchor the Doria, who had been there more often than anyone else so had no excuse. 2. The only credible reason I have heard for anchoring into wrecks is that divers can reel themselves to the surface from the wreck. This causes accidents with cut lines left on wrecks, but that aside, and also ignoring the current issues, why was that method not used as the shot seems to have been fixed fairly well on the sea bed? 3. Why was the diver exhausted pulling himself down the shot? We do not pull ourselves down shots, otherwise the shot moves. Descending is easy. 4. Why was the line not rigged properly, so the buoy stays on the surface no matter what the current or the number of numpties hanging on it? This means the bouy is not tied to the end of a bit of rope for currents, but put it on a slide shackle. Also, use a large enough buoy. Rigging up a nice trapeze does not take a lot of time, and once done, it is done for all. If there is a current, people just hang on the bar and snap off. Any decent dive plan in an area where there is a current, does this. Or perhaps not. The point I am trying to make is, we all have things to learn, even those who initiate threads pointing out things about the muppets population. Instead of being frustrated, just enjoy the show of watching other people learn. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 12th September 2006 at 22:44.
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11th September 2006, 09:45	#17 (permalink)
chrismc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: North west, uk Posts: 61	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? The lack of skills of some divers can be worrying, but in my experiance there is always a percentage of divers in this category regardless of equipment, agency or level. There are a lot of good instructors, but there are also a proportion of bad ones, and trainees may not know the diffrence. In one of my previous clubs an advanced instructor (BSAC) took a sports diver (supposedly limited to 35m) to 67m on air. Whats worse is the instructor had never been to this depth either. I left the club about this point. The advantage of forums like these is divers who make stupid mistakes can be corrected and shown the right way rather than being riddiculed. I also think its worthwhile trying to understand why these divers made the mistakes, then the source can be addressed. 1) Lack of training 2) Poor training 3) No experiance of this (e.g. warm water diver comes to the uk) 4) Sometimes ppl just make dumb mistakes.
(Online)

12th September 2006, 05:12	#18 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Basic SCUBA skills of CCR/Tech divers? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Perhaps this thread can have a higher tone after all ... It is interesting that those complaining of numpties, cause some of the problems. The post about the line pulled down by a bunch doing deco was quite telling about the person posting. Begs questions such as: 1. Why was so much taken to get a line to the wreck on that dive? In the UK we drop a shot onto the wreck instead of anchoring the wreck. That way we get the wreck in about 30 seconds, compared to say the 6 hours taken by a certain skipper (US=Captain), to anchor the Doria, who had been there more often than anyone else so had no excuse. 2. The only credible reason I have heard for anchoring into wrecks is that divers can reel themselves to the surface from the wreck. This causes accidents with cut lines left on wrecks, but that aside, and also ignoring the current issues, why was that method not used as the shot seems to have been fixed fairly well on the sea bed? 3. Why was the diver exhausted pulling himself down the shot? We do not pull ourselves down shots, otherwise the shot moves. Descending is easy. 4. Why was the line not rigged properly, so the buoy stays on the surface no matter what the current or the number of numpties hanging on it? This means the bouy is not tied to the end of a bit of rope for currents, but put it on a slide shackle. Also, use a large enough buoy. Rigging up a nice trapeze does not take a lot of time, and once done, it is done for all. If there is a current, people just hang on the bar and snap off. Any decent dive plan in an area where there is a current, does this. Or perhaps not. The point I am trying to make is, we all have things to learn, even those who initiate threads pointing out things about the muppets population. Instead of being frustrated, just enjoy the show of watching other people learn. Alex You could have just asked about these things in the thread, and I would have answered them. So, I am not going to hijack this thread to answer. You might be surprised to find that I think that you raise some good questions, and you might also be surprised at my answers to them. So, I would ask that you not state that the post is "quite telling about the person posting" under the circumstances. Fair enough? And now, back to the content of the thread . . . . __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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