CCR standardized practice

decoweenie · 30th August 2006, 10:56

Following the off-topic discussion on DrMike's thread on "Rebreather-80", here is the thread to discuss about standardizing CCR protocols.

Here are some thoughts from that off-topic discussion...

Quote:

This forum could be the place where these are discussed debated and the community agree upon. Everyone can put in their opinion and arguments from the most experienced to the best internet divers we have. Logical argument should highlight the optimum set of standards.

Once published people are free of course to use them or not - But if the logic is good - and the arguments well made - people will.

Quote:

...if the format of discussion is too restrictive like:

must agree on this point before the next point could be discuss
must adhere to the standards
blah-blah

then progress will be impeded.

However, if we could keep the discussion in the form such as:

present a view point concerning any portion of the overall standards as you like, and support it with logically reasons.
then willing to debate it with open mind.
if a impasse is reached after a timely debate, we postpone on the final decision and move on to the next point. The next point might solve the previous issue inadvertently.

or something along those lines.

It might help to have a person to reside over the discussion and decide when it is time to move on to the next issue at hand instead of letting the discussion bogged down, tempers rise and personal attacks happen...

We need a volunteer to moderate this thread. Anyone ?

Mark Chase · 30th August 2006, 11:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

We need a volunteer to moderate this thread. Anyone ?

Dave Cooper gets my vote.

ATB

Mark Chase

Brad_Horn · 30th August 2006, 12:29

As the following allready work - why not slot them straight in

Standardised gasses
http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Procedures/gases.htm

Cylinder marking
http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Equipme..._190mix_r.jpeg
http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Equipme...ge_w_reg_r.jpg

And the evolution of DIR for some background reading noting that WKPP/GUE/DIR protocol/standardisation works for damn near all diving, not just Florida cave
http://gue.com/Equipment/Evolution/index.html

regards
Brad

MattDuke · 30th August 2006, 12:59

I'd like a standard practice for dealing with OOA diver, and position of the long hose.

pchanning · 30th August 2006, 13:06

FWIW 'We' (being a modest bunch of South Coast UK Rebreather wreck divers who also did/saw most RB dives conducted on a wing and a prayer) tried this last year and found that standardising algorithym (sp?) bailout and solo/buddy/team procedures to be the hardest part - presonal opinion is irrelevant, a good case is unequivocal.

We found gases and equipment to be relatively easy (common sense) in theory. Practice is, as ever, somewhat different. The environment plays a big part generally so the mix of diver types on a global site should be borne in mind (cases put in context for clarity) It was hard enough for us and we all did the same diving!

I wouldn't pretend that we had the answers but my diving is certainly safer for the exercise, it really helps focus the mind on what we do objectively, so a great topic for the collective experience of those here on Rebreather World.
I look forward the the conclusions drawn. Good luck!
Cheers
Paul

***Decodiver*** · 30th August 2006, 13:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Dave Cooper gets my vote.

ATB

Mark Chase

I would love to, but unfortunately I am just too tucked up with my real job to give it the necessary devotion.

Sorry (from Algeria).

Dave.

decoweenie · 30th August 2006, 13:37

IMHO, this has nothing to do with DIR as Richard has touched.

In the past posts, I used it in the context of reference (i.e. standardization). So let's not have a million posts about why I like DIR and why I hate DIR. No one cares, really...

I wish I have the moderator status so I could keep this thread free of clutters.

Regardless...

To kick this off, I propose that we have the following agenda of discussion:

Topics concerning the unit (i.e. diluent, set-point, on-board only or offboard plug-in capability, etc)...
Topics concerning the buddy system (i.e. buddy or no buddy, etc)
Topics concerning the bail-out (i.e. how much, how to configure, etc.)...
Topics concerning emergency protocols (i.e. DSMB, drift deco, anchor deco, OOA diver, tox diver, etc)

Let's start with these first and see how things develop. This is a very general list to define the direction where we want to head, and we could always define it clearer as needed.

Remember, this is just hashing session for now...

hchoat · 30th August 2006, 13:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

IMHO, this has nothing to do with DIR as Richard has touched.

In the past posts, I used it in the context of reference (i.e. standardization). So let's not have a million posts about why I like DIR and why I hate DIR. No one cares, really...

I wish I have the moderator status so I could keep this thread free of clutters.

Regardless...

To kick this off, I propose that we have the following agenda of discussion:

Topics concerning the unit (i.e. diluent, set-point, on-board only or offboard plug-in capability, etc)...
Topics concerning the buddy system (i.e. buddy or no buddy, etc)
Topics concerning the bail-out (i.e. how much, how to configure, etc.)...
Topics concerning emergency protocols (i.e. DSMB, drift deco, anchor deco, OOA diver, tox diver, etc)

Let's start with these first and see how things develop. This is a very general list to define the direction where we want to head, and we could always define it clearer as needed.

Remember, this is just hashing session for now...

Phi-

I think this is an outstanding direction to go. Personally- I like standardization- it makes things easy on everyone- and I have felt uncomfortable with the lack of it in the Rebreather community.

I'll be following this thread closely!

Heather

Richard Lundgren · 30th August 2006, 13:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by nskdrs)

Most interesting to see Mr. Lundgren participating so vividly in this quality of discussion. Whatever it leads to.

m2c,
hoffi

Hi Hoffi

My humble contribution to this resent development so far was that I asked two questions

What about bailout and procedures
Wouldn't a standard lead to increased diver safety

The rest is the members of the Rebreather World forums own doing

. Must admit that I think this is good and I will study the continuing process carefully.

I guess that the unspoken questions are:

Why did I get involved?

I needed to understand why some divers that I have meet around the world didn't seam to care or bother with bailout gasses clearly needed for the dives they were doing. Was this relay a common practice or freak encounters
I would like to contribute to diver safety no matter who the diver are or how the diver dives
Recent tragic events ignited my interest

Is GUE going CCR?

No, we are quite happy with the procedures and tools that we currently use. Still, we are not ignorant to development, to well founded decisions and opinions of other divers

Warm regards
Richard Lundgren

jasondrake · 30th August 2006, 13:56

My concience tells me I have to post, even though my words will probably be unpopular.

I don't like standardisation and don't think it's a good idea.

Once a set of protocols have been written and backed by authoritative voices, people tend to follow those protocols without question. And people then try to enforce them without discussion. The quality of understanding and 'wisdom' amongst those who learn from these protocols diminishes. Some people stop thinking. Those that do question and think and discuss are then sidelined by a majority and cease to contribute to the evolution of those protocols.

Those who would write these standard practices clearly feel that they already have a solid grasp of what is required for effective CCR diving. So the protocols won't benefit them. Who, then, are they to be written for? Students? Novices?
Isn't that what mentoring and training exist for? To expose beginners to a range of ideas and a wealth of experience and then allow them - as individuals - to understand and learn in their own way, and to accept or disgard those rules as they see fit. A range of different viewpoints and practices exposes those learners to a wealth of knowledge to choose from. And I am absolutely convinced that most CCR divers will learn better, think better and dive better when they come to their own conclusions. We are thinking individuals, and we will not agree on many things; nor should we. Otherwise we end up with....PADI.

Just my thoughts,
Jason

30th August 2006, 10:56	#1 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	CCR standardized practice Following the off-topic discussion on DrMike's thread on "Rebreather-80", here is the thread to discuss about standardizing CCR protocols. Here are some thoughts from that off-topic discussion... Quote: This forum could be the place where these are discussed debated and the community agree upon. Everyone can put in their opinion and arguments from the most experienced to the best internet divers we have. Logical argument should highlight the optimum set of standards. Once published people are free of course to use them or not - But if the logic is good - and the arguments well made - people will. Quote: ...if the format of discussion is too restrictive like: must agree on this point before the next point could be discuss must adhere to the standards blah-blah then progress will be impeded. However, if we could keep the discussion in the form such as: present a view point concerning any portion of the overall standards as you like, and support it with logically reasons. then willing to debate it with open mind. if a impasse is reached after a timely debate, we postpone on the final decision and move on to the next point. The next point might solve the previous issue inadvertently. or something along those lines. It might help to have a person to reside over the discussion and decide when it is time to move on to the next issue at hand instead of letting the discussion bogged down, tempers rise and personal attacks happen... We need a volunteer to moderate this thread. Anyone ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 11:00	#2 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) We need a volunteer to moderate this thread. Anyone ? Dave Cooper gets my vote. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 12:29	#3 (permalink)
Brad_Horn Checklist, tick! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 58	Re: CCR standardized practice As the following allready work - why not slot them straight in Standardised gasses http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Procedures/gases.htm Cylinder marking http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Equipme..._190mix_r.jpeg http://gue.com/Projects/WKPP/Equipme...ge_w_reg_r.jpg And the evolution of DIR for some background reading noting that WKPP/GUE/DIR protocol/standardisation works for damn near all diving, not just Florida cave http://gue.com/Equipment/Evolution/index.html regards Brad
(Online)

30th August 2006, 12:59	#4 (permalink)
MattDuke New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 24	Re: CCR standardized practice I'd like a standard practice for dealing with OOA diver, and position of the long hose. __________________ Born 1975 Started Diving 1984 Started CCR Diving 2006. Stopped CCR Diving 2006. CCR isn't for everyone, but it was a lot of fun trying.
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:06	#5 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Re: CCR standardized practice FWIW 'We' (being a modest bunch of South Coast UK Rebreather wreck divers who also did/saw most RB dives conducted on a wing and a prayer) tried this last year and found that standardising algorithym (sp?) bailout and solo/buddy/team procedures to be the hardest part - presonal opinion is irrelevant, a good case is unequivocal. We found gases and equipment to be relatively easy (common sense) in theory. Practice is, as ever, somewhat different. The environment plays a big part generally so the mix of diver types on a global site should be borne in mind (cases put in context for clarity) It was hard enough for us and we all did the same diving! I wouldn't pretend that we had the answers but my diving is certainly safer for the exercise, it really helps focus the mind on what we do objectively, so a great topic for the collective experience of those here on Rebreather World. I look forward the the conclusions drawn. Good luck! Cheers Paul __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:26	#6 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,168	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Dave Cooper gets my vote. ATB Mark Chase I would love to, but unfortunately I am just too tucked up with my real job to give it the necessary devotion. Sorry (from Algeria). Dave. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:37	#7 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: CCR standardized practice IMHO, this has nothing to do with DIR as Richard has touched. In the past posts, I used it in the context of reference (i.e. standardization). So let's not have a million posts about why I like DIR and why I hate DIR. No one cares, really... I wish I have the moderator status so I could keep this thread free of clutters. Regardless... To kick this off, I propose that we have the following agenda of discussion: Topics concerning the unit (i.e. diluent, set-point, on-board only or offboard plug-in capability, etc)... Topics concerning the buddy system (i.e. buddy or no buddy, etc) Topics concerning the bail-out (i.e. how much, how to configure, etc.)... Topics concerning emergency protocols (i.e. DSMB, drift deco, anchor deco, OOA diver, tox diver, etc) Let's start with these first and see how things develop. This is a very general list to define the direction where we want to head, and we could always define it clearer as needed. Remember, this is just hashing session for now... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:42	#8 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 221	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) IMHO, this has nothing to do with DIR as Richard has touched. In the past posts, I used it in the context of reference (i.e. standardization). So let's not have a million posts about why I like DIR and why I hate DIR. No one cares, really... I wish I have the moderator status so I could keep this thread free of clutters. Regardless... To kick this off, I propose that we have the following agenda of discussion: Topics concerning the unit (i.e. diluent, set-point, on-board only or offboard plug-in capability, etc)... Topics concerning the buddy system (i.e. buddy or no buddy, etc) Topics concerning the bail-out (i.e. how much, how to configure, etc.)... Topics concerning emergency protocols (i.e. DSMB, drift deco, anchor deco, OOA diver, tox diver, etc) Let's start with these first and see how things develop. This is a very general list to define the direction where we want to head, and we could always define it clearer as needed. Remember, this is just hashing session for now... Phi- I think this is an outstanding direction to go. Personally- I like standardization- it makes things easy on everyone- and I have felt uncomfortable with the lack of it in the Rebreather community. I'll be following this thread closely! Heather __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:46	#9 (permalink)
Richard Lundgren New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 52	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by nskdrs) Most interesting to see Mr. Lundgren participating so vividly in this quality of discussion. Whatever it leads to. m2c, hoffi Hi Hoffi My humble contribution to this resent development so far was that I asked two questions What about bailout and procedures Wouldn't a standard lead to increased diver safety The rest is the members of the Rebreather World forums own doing . Must admit that I think this is good and I will study the continuing process carefully. I guess that the unspoken questions are: Why did I get involved? I needed to understand why some divers that I have meet around the world didn't seam to care or bother with bailout gasses clearly needed for the dives they were doing. Was this relay a common practice or freak encounters I would like to contribute to diver safety no matter who the diver are or how the diver dives Recent tragic events ignited my interest Is GUE going CCR? No, we are quite happy with the procedures and tools that we currently use. Still, we are not ignorant to development, to well founded decisions and opinions of other divers Warm regards Richard Lundgren Last edited by Richard Lundgren : 30th August 2006 at 13:48.
(Offline)

30th August 2006, 13:56	#10 (permalink)
jasondrake New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Completely homeless Posts: 74	Re: CCR standardized practice My concience tells me I have to post, even though my words will probably be unpopular. I don't like standardisation and don't think it's a good idea. Once a set of protocols have been written and backed by authoritative voices, people tend to follow those protocols without question. And people then try to enforce them without discussion. The quality of understanding and 'wisdom' amongst those who learn from these protocols diminishes. Some people stop thinking. Those that do question and think and discuss are then sidelined by a majority and cease to contribute to the evolution of those protocols. Those who would write these standard practices clearly feel that they already have a solid grasp of what is required for effective CCR diving. So the protocols won't benefit them. Who, then, are they to be written for? Students? Novices? Isn't that what mentoring and training exist for? To expose beginners to a range of ideas and a wealth of experience and then allow them - as individuals - to understand and learn in their own way, and to accept or disgard those rules as they see fit. A range of different viewpoints and practices exposes those learners to a wealth of knowledge to choose from. And I am absolutely convinced that most CCR divers will learn better, think better and dive better when they come to their own conclusions. We are thinking individuals, and we will not agree on many things; nor should we. Otherwise we end up with....PADI. Just my thoughts, Jason
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