CCR standardized practice

nskdrs · 31st August 2006, 11:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Hoffi,

You're right about signal to noise ratio, thats what the library is supposed to help with.

/Z

Yes, me like the library very much like many others sure do, but needs enrichment beyond technical stuff, IMHO.
Equipmentreviews are nice, but hey, everybody knows,

Michael Schumacher is successful because he's perfectly able to focus on one small detail, the next second he's able to move back and look at the whole picture.

I believe, Rebreather World could offer more orientation, guideline beyond the rig on ones back without pissing off the professionals.

Adding "collection" ( just a name, just an idea) - threads could help to condensate longtime findings.
Maybe only approved Rebreather World-writers should be able to contribute to "collections", dunno.

Keep up the atmosphere so the experienced will not get bored and frustrated too fast.

The instructors also could profit from this as long they stick to quality and perfection.

It could also function as a WHO-is-WHO for the rookies.

And sure stick to all the vivid open discussions and chats, the WEB 2.0 feeling.

You know, exclusivly cyberdiving will not produce surviving, thinking, acting divers, IMHO instructors should not feel too much in competition with the net-force.

Best example, sorry aboutDIR again,
you only get a better view on the up-to-date picture and details after taking a GUE-class, this won't change, period.
IMHO, NOT because GUE is excessively hiding information.

cheers,
hoffi

jptaylor9 · 31st August 2006, 11:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

As for lift bags i am not to arsed with tat, but when i bother to take a lift bag i use the 21m bottle.

I had a buddy bail, having used his 50% to send up a porthole from 70m, it was empty when they needed it!!!!

I handed mine off to him to use until we got to the deco station & could get something richer.....

Maybe not such a good practice

Mdemon · 31st August 2006, 11:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

my regular deep diving bud and myself have standardized our practises between ourselves. As most of our diving in the UK is in the 50-75m range this system works for us and our profiles. Any deeper than this and the gases and volumes have to be modified but the core system of both divers using the same gases/profile etc remain the same.

I would sugest rather than standardizing all CCR divers ala DIR, Use a system all your team or buddy use and are familar with rather than a 1 system suits all divers.

This is our system:-

Standard Gases: 10/52 You all know the reasons

Standard Bailout gases: 18/45, 50% and 100% These were chosen because using these gases for bailout give overall runtimes within 5-10min of origianl CCR deco plan (BT of 30-40min) it usualy works out 5-10mins quicker OC than on CCR. This allows us to keep VR3 in CCR mode and continue bailout ascent without having to faff about resetting VR3 to OC or using tables.

Gases are 18/45 7ltr pumped to 250bar, 50% 7ltr 250 bar, O2 inboard 3ltr with 2nd stage bungied round neck with flow stop 200bar. All stages have whips for connecting offboard gas to the units.

All Bailout Bottles marked ala DIR, MOD permantly marked on bottles. I actualy use GUE decals for this.

Run all stages on the left, reason was for streamlining and most importantly if a soliniod stuck open at depth allows quick easy/unrestricded acsess to O2 valve.

Both run ADV with flow stop, 2X ways of adding dil-gas to the loop.

Preform full pos and neg test and full pre-breath (3-5mins) before diving.

Always calibrate unit on day of diving, regardless if computer asks to or not.

Both divers carry a VR3 set at SP 1.25, unit running 1.3, seperate B-timer with backup tables in pocket. 2 red SMB's, 1 Yellow SMB. 2x reels. Spare mask in pocket. 2x form of liner cutters.

We both run standard YBOD, so familarety problems with clips, buttons etc is non existant. I see no need to modify something that works well 99.99% of the time

This sytem works for us but might not you and your buddy/team. Figure out what works for you, and both/all of the team stick to the same processes all the time for that said particular dive profile.

I dont think our process are DIR, just common sense and good team/buddy skills

. We both know what each of us have to do and when we have to do it.

I have bailed out in anger from a 64m dive with a BT of 18min, we were both carrying the same gases and deco schedules. and this led to a very stress free situatuin.
It was relaxing and stress free knowing i had enough gas to get myself up, but my buddy was also carrying the same gases so if i ran low of a particular gas i had access to my buddy's which were exactly the same so it did not alter my schedule. We were both able to stick together on ascent (no zig zaging) again making the situation stress free with a face to face ascent.

The above situation felt to me like a inconveniece that our dive was cut short (going for a 40min BT) rather than a life threating situation, on my 1st deep stop i remember thinking Bas*#rd i was enjoying that, rather than shit what am i going to do now

. This in my mind was down to the above processes with both divers running the same plan, gasses, profile etc etc. (i got out of the water with 90bar of 18/45, 170bar 50% and 50bar of 100% after clearing deco and giving an extra 10mins for safety)

ATB
Gareth

dive safe.

That's the way to do it! Some brave soul sticks their head above the parapet, suggests a system and then peer-review/amend it.

Sorry, but from our experience of trying this, if you don't put something down, you just end up with lots of platitudes and endless wish-lists.

Please, when consensus on something is reached, copy it to a public place and mark it as done, at least for that version. Otherwise you will go round in circles.

Best of luck!

Depth-junkie · 31st August 2006, 12:06

Quote:

I had a buddy bail, having used his 50% to send up a porthole from 70m, it was empty when they needed it!!!!

I handed mine off to him to use until we got to the deco station & could get something richer.....

Maybe not such a good practice

As i said i am not to arsed with tat, i cant be botherd with having to refill/top up bottles for some junk that will be left to rot on my gargage floor

Besides i dont ever recall using my whole 7ltr to fill a bag to lift a porthole, maybe a few bar but not all 250 of em.

ATB
Gareth

teal · 31st August 2006, 13:13

As a complete rookie and someone who is here to learn more and post less, I applaud what you guys and gals are trying to do here.

For somone who is still trying to get thru posts without having to figure out all the acronyms I appreciate those taking the time to lay out an agreed upon method to the CCR world. I really hope this goes forward in a good manner because I see it helping me and others to a very large degree.

As an aside - I liked the suggestion of running it like a super article. The articles I have read have all been excellent so far and if board management were to do say an open casting call for articles on a topic for one month, then review them along with a select number of acomplished Rebreather divers to make sure there wasn't any glaring omissions or problems then post the article in its own spot maybe in a "Practice Library" with a forum for the rest to discuss.

Perhaps the article gets changed or maybe it says as the standard. Or several articles get hashed out into one compilation that we (really you) all as a group deem the most prudent. The membership moves onto the next topic of discussion set up under the guidlines of just what practices we (you) are trying to standardize.

While I think most would agree with the final product - some wouldn't. Flexability (within safety) has to be there, as the team or the dive may require something different as it applies to their situation, but some common ground that covers 90% of everyone else is helpful, in my opinion.

Again thanks, this effort is much appreciated by me the newb and I suspect others as well, regardless of expirence.

EDIT TO ADD: Every diver is a product of his/her training and expirence. All those contributing need to realize that just because they do it one way - thats not the only way in some cases. If this is going to work with the minimum of hurt feelings or non effective discussion - it needs to be a frank, open and civil discussion of the techniques present and not a personal attack on any one diver. Not something I have seen here yet (on the forum as a whole) but as we (you) discuss and critique proceedures that others use -- sometimes its easy to get heated.

sven · 31st August 2006, 15:19

All,

In a parallel thread I posted the Sydney Project diving regulations: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...ct-diving.html
We have developed this minimal set of rules in order to enable us to do deeper expedition type dives safely, without constraining people in their ability to plan their dives. The rules are mainly concerned with preparation of the dive, execution within the framework, as well as support. The procedures have been proven to work on multiple expeditions over the past couple of years. Maybe worth a read?!
From my point of view, these minimalist rules are
- easy to agree upon
- cover the most important aspects of dive planning and execution
- leave the diver enough room to optimise their specific plans

Yes, there is a lot that can be improved, but you have to start somewhere ...

How much of these rules can be used as the basis for "universal" CCR protocols?

decoweenie · 1st September 2006, 10:52

Stuart,

Is there any plan to approach this in an organized plan, or everyone on their own as so far ?

N.Bassily · 1st September 2006, 12:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier)

Hi all,

This could be the most interesting discussion that ever took place on Rebreather World. Thanks to Swen and its contribution with the Sidney Project.
The idea is great but I wouldn't like to see the discussion going in every direction.

So here is my idea:

First: please find enclosed a pdf document with a lot of questions. Print it, think about them (when you are at work or when the TV show is boring).

Then: share your opinion about these specific points in one of the three following threads:

Part 1: the unit (necessary features)
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...art1-unit.html

Part 2: The diving procedures (SOP)
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...html#post64903

Part 3: the emergency procedures (bail-out and others)
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...html#post64905

There maybe some questions missing but it's just a starting point. Feel free to add more items.

Please don't spend your time criticizing about someone else' opinion. The idea is to do some constructive work that could benefit the all rebreather diving community. There will be some disagreement but the first step is to gather information from everybody.

Cheers

hi all

although i am not an active participant member of RW but her is my opinion

i agree with standardization doc of Cedric and i think that the moderator should put a time limit for discussion of every topic .

AM · 1st September 2006, 12:56

Excellent idea. I've always been a strong proponent of standardisation but without the restrictive "don't question why we do it this way" mentality.

Everything in CCR is open to challenge.

For this to work in a structured, sequential manner, buy in from manufacturers and training agencies would be fantastic. We do have an end to end, cross-functional communication link and end goal at that point.

Perhaps a matrix environment with several layers would be an effective way to approach the discussion element of the standardisation concept. This would mean a base layer of unit specific procedures would be strategically efficient then a seamless layer above that for actual rebreather events across the board and management/skills to deal with such events - with the layer underneath determining which skills are unit specific, i.e. cannot be standardised across all CCRs.

At the end of the day, the community on here represent the user base and there SHOULD be an interface between users, developers (the Manufacturers) and the Training Agencies. IMHO the lack of a decent interface has, for years, impeded the "certainty" that users should have regarding procedural and skills based training.

Rebreather training can fail to take into account new developing technologies and this gives rise to extensive discussion about modification of units to execute skills different ways. This is not a seamless integration between manufacturers and training by anyone's standards. Continued modification of units does bring benefits and does teach us new ways to manage skills based exercises and safety procedures but also brings the disadvantages of stepping away from manufacturer's recommendations and the associated elements of risk therefore do increase exponentially.

IMHO, the key to reducing negative diver events and enhancing rebreather safety is to facilitate a much stronger interface between rebreather divers (the users), the Manufacturers and the various training agences.

Regards

AnneMarie

***schford*** · 1st September 2006, 13:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Stuart,

Is there any plan to approach this in an organized plan, or everyone on their own as so far ?

As per my original post a number of pages back. When I have talked to everyone I will set something up in a structured manner. I will get the outline area done this weekend when I have some time.

In the meantime comments in here to help us shape discusison.

I have moved all cedrics threads in the meantime (did you read my post Cedric?) as I quite agree with you we don't want a free for all.

Please dont start a million threads all over the place everyone :-) other wise it will be a pig to adminstrate...

31st August 2006, 11:27	#41 (permalink)
nskdrs New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Not Bought Yet Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: germany Posts: 80	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Hoffi, You're right about signal to noise ratio, thats what the library is supposed to help with. /Z Yes, me like the library very much like many others sure do, but needs enrichment beyond technical stuff, IMHO. Equipmentreviews are nice, but hey, everybody knows, Michael Schumacher is successful because he's perfectly able to focus on one small detail, the next second he's able to move back and look at the whole picture. I believe, Rebreather World could offer more orientation, guideline beyond the rig on ones back without pissing off the professionals. Adding "collection" ( just a name, just an idea) - threads could help to condensate longtime findings. Maybe only approved Rebreather World-writers should be able to contribute to "collections", dunno. Keep up the atmosphere so the experienced will not get bored and frustrated too fast. The instructors also could profit from this as long they stick to quality and perfection. It could also function as a WHO-is-WHO for the rookies. And sure stick to all the vivid open discussions and chats, the WEB 2.0 feeling. You know, exclusivly cyberdiving will not produce surviving, thinking, acting divers, IMHO instructors should not feel too much in competition with the net-force. Best example, sorry aboutDIR again, you only get a better view on the up-to-date picture and details after taking a GUE-class, this won't change, period. IMHO, NOT because GUE is excessively hiding information. cheers, hoffi Last edited by nskdrs : 31st August 2006 at 11:34.
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31st August 2006, 11:53	#42 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 312	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) As for lift bags i am not to arsed with tat, but when i bother to take a lift bag i use the 21m bottle. I had a buddy bail, having used his 50% to send up a porthole from 70m, it was empty when they needed it!!!! I handed mine off to him to use until we got to the deco station & could get something richer..... Maybe not such a good practice
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31st August 2006, 11:54	#43 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,903	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) my regular deep diving bud and myself have standardized our practises between ourselves. As most of our diving in the UK is in the 50-75m range this system works for us and our profiles. Any deeper than this and the gases and volumes have to be modified but the core system of both divers using the same gases/profile etc remain the same. I would sugest rather than standardizing all CCR divers ala DIR, Use a system all your team or buddy use and are familar with rather than a 1 system suits all divers. This is our system:- Standard Gases: 10/52 You all know the reasons Standard Bailout gases: 18/45, 50% and 100% These were chosen because using these gases for bailout give overall runtimes within 5-10min of origianl CCR deco plan (BT of 30-40min) it usualy works out 5-10mins quicker OC than on CCR. This allows us to keep VR3 in CCR mode and continue bailout ascent without having to faff about resetting VR3 to OC or using tables. Gases are 18/45 7ltr pumped to 250bar, 50% 7ltr 250 bar, O2 inboard 3ltr with 2nd stage bungied round neck with flow stop 200bar. All stages have whips for connecting offboard gas to the units. All Bailout Bottles marked ala DIR, MOD permantly marked on bottles. I actualy use GUE decals for this. Run all stages on the left, reason was for streamlining and most importantly if a soliniod stuck open at depth allows quick easy/unrestricded acsess to O2 valve. Both run ADV with flow stop, 2X ways of adding dil-gas to the loop. Preform full pos and neg test and full pre-breath (3-5mins) before diving. Always calibrate unit on day of diving, regardless if computer asks to or not. Both divers carry a VR3 set at SP 1.25, unit running 1.3, seperate B-timer with backup tables in pocket. 2 red SMB's, 1 Yellow SMB. 2x reels. Spare mask in pocket. 2x form of liner cutters. We both run standard YBOD, so familarety problems with clips, buttons etc is non existant. I see no need to modify something that works well 99.99% of the time This sytem works for us but might not you and your buddy/team. Figure out what works for you, and both/all of the team stick to the same processes all the time for that said particular dive profile. I dont think our process are DIR, just common sense and good team/buddy skills . We both know what each of us have to do and when we have to do it. I have bailed out in anger from a 64m dive with a BT of 18min, we were both carrying the same gases and deco schedules. and this led to a very stress free situatuin. It was relaxing and stress free knowing i had enough gas to get myself up, but my buddy was also carrying the same gases so if i ran low of a particular gas i had access to my buddy's which were exactly the same so it did not alter my schedule. We were both able to stick together on ascent (no zig zaging) again making the situation stress free with a face to face ascent. The above situation felt to me like a inconveniece that our dive was cut short (going for a 40min BT) rather than a life threating situation, on my 1st deep stop i remember thinking Bas#rd i was enjoying that, rather than shit what am i going to do now . This in my mind was down to the above processes with both divers running the same plan, gasses, profile etc etc. (i got out of the water with 90bar of 18/45, 170bar 50% and 50bar of 100% after clearing deco and giving an extra 10mins for safety) ATB Gareth dive safe. That's the way to do it! Some brave soul sticks their head above the parapet, suggests a system and then peer-review/amend it. Sorry, but from our experience of trying this, if you don't put something down, you just end up with lots of platitudes and endless wish-lists. Please, when consensus on something is reached, copy it to a public place and mark it as done, at least for that version. Otherwise you will go round in circles. Best of luck! __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"*
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31st August 2006, 12:06	#44 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 291	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: I had a buddy bail, having used his 50% to send up a porthole from 70m, it was empty when they needed it!!!! I handed mine off to him to use until we got to the deco station & could get something richer..... Maybe not such a good practice As i said i am not to arsed with tat, i cant be botherd with having to refill/top up bottles for some junk that will be left to rot on my gargage floor Besides i dont ever recall using my whole 7ltr to fill a bag to lift a porthole, maybe a few bar but not all 250 of em. ATB Gareth
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31st August 2006, 13:13	#45 (permalink)
teal New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Green Bay Posts: 13	Re: CCR standardized practice As a complete rookie and someone who is here to learn more and post less, I applaud what you guys and gals are trying to do here. For somone who is still trying to get thru posts without having to figure out all the acronyms I appreciate those taking the time to lay out an agreed upon method to the CCR world. I really hope this goes forward in a good manner because I see it helping me and others to a very large degree. As an aside - I liked the suggestion of running it like a super article. The articles I have read have all been excellent so far and if board management were to do say an open casting call for articles on a topic for one month, then review them along with a select number of acomplished Rebreather divers to make sure there wasn't any glaring omissions or problems then post the article in its own spot maybe in a "Practice Library" with a forum for the rest to discuss. Perhaps the article gets changed or maybe it says as the standard. Or several articles get hashed out into one compilation that we (really you) all as a group deem the most prudent. The membership moves onto the next topic of discussion set up under the guidlines of just what practices we (you) are trying to standardize. While I think most would agree with the final product - some wouldn't. Flexability (within safety) has to be there, as the team or the dive may require something different as it applies to their situation, but some common ground that covers 90% of everyone else is helpful, in my opinion. Again thanks, this effort is much appreciated by me the newb and I suspect others as well, regardless of expirence. EDIT TO ADD: Every diver is a product of his/her training and expirence. All those contributing need to realize that just because they do it one way - thats not the only way in some cases. If this is going to work with the minimum of hurt feelings or non effective discussion - it needs to be a frank, open and civil discussion of the techniques present and not a personal attack on any one diver. Not something I have seen here yet (on the forum as a whole) but as we (you) discuss and critique proceedures that others use -- sometimes its easy to get heated. __________________ Andrew Last edited by teal : 31st August 2006 at 13:23.
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31st August 2006, 15:19	#46 (permalink)
sven Blogs Admin / Forum Mod Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 574	Re: CCR standardized practice All, In a parallel thread I posted the Sydney Project diving regulations: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...ct-diving.html We have developed this minimal set of rules in order to enable us to do deeper expedition type dives safely, without constraining people in their ability to plan their dives. The rules are mainly concerned with preparation of the dive, execution within the framework, as well as support. The procedures have been proven to work on multiple expeditions over the past couple of years. Maybe worth a read?! From my point of view, these minimalist rules are - easy to agree upon - cover the most important aspects of dive planning and execution - leave the diver enough room to optimise their specific plans Yes, there is a lot that can be improved, but you have to start somewhere ... How much of these rules can be used as the basis for "universal" CCR protocols? __________________ Regards, Sven [SIZE=1]The Sydney Project website: [URL]http://www.sydneyproject.com[/URL] My Blog: [URL]http://sven.rebreatherworld.com[/URL] "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain[/SIZE]
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1st September 2006, 10:52	#47 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: CCR standardized practice Stuart, Is there any plan to approach this in an organized plan, or everyone on their own as so far ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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1st September 2006, 12:31	#48 (permalink)
N.Bassily New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Malta Posts: 19	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier) Hi all, This could be the most interesting discussion that ever took place on Rebreather World. Thanks to Swen and its contribution with the Sidney Project. The idea is great but I wouldn't like to see the discussion going in every direction. So here is my idea: First: please find enclosed a pdf document with a lot of questions. Print it, think about them (when you are at work or when the TV show is boring). Then: share your opinion about these specific points in one of the three following threads: Part 1: the unit (necessary features) http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...art1-unit.html Part 2: The diving procedures (SOP) http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...html#post64903 Part 3: the emergency procedures (bail-out and others) http://www.rebreatherworld.com/techn...html#post64905 There maybe some questions missing but it's just a starting point. Feel free to add more items. Please don't spend your time criticizing about someone else' opinion. The idea is to do some constructive work that could benefit the all rebreather diving community. There will be some disagreement but the first step is to gather information from everybody. Cheers hi all although i am not an active participant member of RW but her is my opinion i agree with standardization doc of Cedric and i think that the moderator should put a time limit for discussion of every topic . __________________ Nader Bassily If It Is There Find ItIf it is on the way Move it But If It is under water leave it to me
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1st September 2006, 12:56	#49 (permalink)
AM Highly amused!! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Earth. Posts: 554	Re: CCR standardized practice Excellent idea. I've always been a strong proponent of standardisation but without the restrictive "don't question why we do it this way" mentality. Everything in CCR is open to challenge. For this to work in a structured, sequential manner, buy in from manufacturers and training agencies would be fantastic. We do have an end to end, cross-functional communication link and end goal at that point. Perhaps a matrix environment with several layers would be an effective way to approach the discussion element of the standardisation concept. This would mean a base layer of unit specific procedures would be strategically efficient then a seamless layer above that for actual rebreather events across the board and management/skills to deal with such events - with the layer underneath determining which skills are unit specific, i.e. cannot be standardised across all CCRs. At the end of the day, the community on here represent the user base and there SHOULD be an interface between users, developers (the Manufacturers) and the Training Agencies. IMHO the lack of a decent interface has, for years, impeded the "certainty" that users should have regarding procedural and skills based training. Rebreather training can fail to take into account new developing technologies and this gives rise to extensive discussion about modification of units to execute skills different ways. This is not a seamless integration between manufacturers and training by anyone's standards. Continued modification of units does bring benefits and does teach us new ways to manage skills based exercises and safety procedures but also brings the disadvantages of stepping away from manufacturer's recommendations and the associated elements of risk therefore do increase exponentially. IMHO, the key to reducing negative diver events and enhancing rebreather safety is to facilitate a much stronger interface between rebreather divers (the users), the Manufacturers and the various training agences. Regards AnneMarie __________________ Attitude keeps you alive
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1st September 2006, 13:34	#50 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,671	Re: CCR standardized practice Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Stuart, Is there any plan to approach this in an organized plan, or everyone on their own as so far ? As per my original post a number of pages back. When I have talked to everyone I will set something up in a structured manner. I will get the outline area done this weekend when I have some time. In the meantime comments in here to help us shape discusison. I have moved all cedrics threads in the meantime (did you read my post Cedric?) as I quite agree with you we don't want a free for all. Please dont start a million threads all over the place everyone :-) other wise it will be a pig to adminstrate... __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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