100m dive bailout

Richard Lundgren

I think this is a common misunderstanding and the reasons buried in the past. I guess that this is a good opportunity to dispel such opinions as they lack substance. In my position I need to understand how the diving community in general develops, thinks, acts and be knowledgeable about a different procedures etc.

Take care
Richard Lundgren

CCR900

The DIR approach to diving isn't really applicable here. Given that, whilst we share the same love of CCR/SCR, our choice of rebreather varies greatly. So from the word go OC options vary. What are the sizes of your onbaord tanks, can you access these tanks for OC, can your rebreather recover from flood, how many was can you see your PO2, can you plug additional diluent/O2 into your rebreather.

So before a diver can say how much O/C we or she will need he needs to ask whether the CCR should be abandonded at the first sign of trouble. I for one will stay on the loop as long as physically possible.

I am sure that mountain climbers, soldiers etc can't carry all everything they would like to carry, they need to make choices.

Fil

Richard Lundgren

Thank you Fil. I appreciate the fact that there are many different designs out there. But as no system can ever be fail safe the need, amount in liters, for adequate bailout should be fairly similar right?

Take care
Richard Lundgren

jhaaja

Yes the amount of OC gas needed wont change if the breather fails totally. I think Fil meant that different breathers can tolerate different kind of faults. So on some breather that fault would lead to OC bailout but on some other model you might need to go OC for a while and fix the problem with the breather and then come back on the loop again.

And yes no man made maschine is fail safe. People seem to use different approaches to bailout nad everyone is entitled to dive as they wish. I prepare for total failure of the breather and calculate my OC gaas need according to that.

JH

Richard Lundgren

This approach appeals to me.

Mark Chase

I would very much like to see standardization in safety procedures for CCR but sadly support is lacking. An attempt was made to standardize gas and safety procedures earlier on this your by a group of divers in the south of England but strong personal opinions got in the way of the greater goal.

CCR needs a GI3/JJ figure to really lay down a standard set of operational procedures but sadly we don't appear to have the WKPP platform from which this can develop.

As to the second point,

Both my CCR instructors Paul Marks and Joe Davin were alpinist divers. Both said the same thing. There is nothing that can go wrong on a CCR that they couldn't handle on loop. Nothing ever will go wrong because of the wat they run and maintain their equipment.

Both admitted a total loop flood would kill them but they accept that infinitely small possibility.

When i see them diving with no bailout tanks at all i am quite envious of their self confidence but I just don't believe it's justified my self. So despite the bias of both my instructors I choose to take enough gas to get safely back to the surface. So far with a couple of hundred hours on the unit i have never had to use it. I doubt very much if i will ever reach the 1900 hours Joe had logged on his Inspiration up to Jan 2005.

ATB

Mark Chase

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pchanning

Moreover the team found that problems were complicated by different unit capabilities as well as people's perception of risk ' options, which seems exactly what is happening here (funnily enough). Dive specifics were also highly influential.

In the end we agreed to stay together, be sensible, and hold each others hand when we got scared.

Seriously, I think that having a good regular buddy (like you Mark) that you understand and can work together with (clarity) is the best way to go. To many variables otherwise. All IMVHO of course.

Cheers
Paul

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Cheers
Paul

The key to enlightenment... is survival.

schford

An approach I maybe could agree with, with rigid rules a la DIR I couldn't....Although even an approach would mean people like Paul would be what - persona non gratis?

There are so many variables that affect bailout - unless everyone divied standard mixes and agreed a standard deco algo then it would not be appropriate.

IMHO - being rigid stifles innovation.

As for not needing bailout as nothing could cause a loop flood - well I am sure MR Murphy might have somethign to say about that!

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sven

Richard,

I have tried to get a number of bottom divers on Sydney Project expedition dives to sync their gases ... No luck. For me as dive supervisor, the logistics of having up to 8 people in the water on a 135msw dive, with each team using their own mixes, deco software, deco model, tanks, is becoming a problem. The ocean conditions can change rather quickly down here (on one occasion we had the bottom divers go down in duck pond conditions,. When we picked them out of the water 4.5h later, we had 3..4m waves!)

Unfortunately, the truth is that the deco model, software, gas mixes etc are very personal choices. So the rules we have as a club, dictate:
- team bailout with 1.5 x the gas needed for OC bailout to 21m (where the support guys can deliver EAN50)
- EAN50 and 100 staged on deco station, plus backup deco station and EAN50 + 100 for divers that get separated
- extra gas available in the boat, delivered via support divers

We also have rules around setpoints, max ppO2, airbreaks, ...

You can check out our procedures on our website (Though I am in the process of re-writing some of them at the moment).

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Our rules have worked for us so far (touch wood). That does not mean they are suitable for your diving. Please do not use these rules other than for educational purposes. I myself have never been deeper than 80msw (back in my OC days), and have yet to finish my Inspiration TMX course. So I am NOT an authority in any way, shape or form.

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Regards,
Sven

[SIZE=1]The Sydney Project website: [URL]http://www.sydneyproject.com[/URL]
My Blog: [URL]http://sven.rebreatherworld.com[/URL]

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Richard Lundgren

Hi Sven,

I have meet several of the Sydney project divers while working in Sydney. I might even have meet you on the crazy Frenchman's boat:-). I got a comprehensive overview of you activities by the Polish Ogre

I can imagine how confusing a situation such as the one described by you must be. I guess the trick is to agree on one set of standards and apply them to all activities within the project. A compromise leaning toward the conservative (safe) rather than aggressive sounds like a good start.

As you said, there is an rather unpredictable and big ocean you have to negotiate with in your area.

By the way, I will be working in Sydney again during November and December. I'm sure that we will bump into each other since the tech community in Sydney is rather small.

Take care,
Richard Lundgren