100m dive bailout

decoweenie · 28th August 2006, 14:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Maybe you can find another way to amuse yourself instead of wasting peoples time here. Obviously your not here to learn or share - just to amuse yourself.

Let me count how many posts before you realized that, Mike...

You have way more patience than most...

Drmike · 28th August 2006, 14:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Bearing in mind that a 10ltr blown to 250 bar at 100m using your 70/80/90RMv figures would last a grand total of 2.84 mins dont you think this is all bollocks.

No I dont for all the reasons Ive already given.

With a full offboard AL80 you have 4 times longer time to sort yourself out than you will with your used 3L.

But hey whatever rocks your boat

db8us · 28th August 2006, 15:55

I think we should also be aware that most "i am in deep sh*t" scenarios are not as bad as they seem once you have the 2-3 minutes to sort things out.
So even if the bailout might not bring you aaaallll the way up, it gives you plenty of time to check-recheck, think about other straetgies etc.
Most OOG situations are not really OOG. With the first prototypes of RB80 a stone was pinched between the counterlung and the case. (I know, if you think what chances are need to do this on purpose......Geeeezz).
So suddenly the unit behaves strange. What do you do ? Bailout and check and ask you buddy to check. Afterwards you realize that you can continue, you are just wasting more gas. If you do not have sufficent bailut you are immeditalty in a "hurry-mode", maybe leading to panic ? (I know, that we are all cool dudes

)

Maybe NOT having bailout contributes to heart-attacks ?????

Too me bailout is simply the key to have the time to act and react and therefore a key to survival, but like DrMike said: Whatever one wants to do...

By the way: Anyone knows how much bailout they had on the Plura-dive ?

Michael

Richard Lundgren · 28th August 2006, 16:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us)

By the way: Anyone knows how much bailout they had on the Plura-dive ?

Michael

Hi Micha

I have some information regarding this but I prefer to wait until the official report comes out. The rescue team have located the diver and will attempt the recovery today or tomorrow. This accident, among others, was one of the reasons why I felt like I had to get a better understanding on how divers estimate their need of bailout gas.

Richard

Mark Chase · 28th August 2006, 17:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

No I dont for all the reasons Ive already given.

With a full offboard AL80 you have 4 times longer time to sort yourself out than you will with your used 3L.

But hey whatever rocks your boat

Ali 80 at standard fill presures is 205 bar 2357.50ltrs of gas

Steel 10 at 235 is 2350.oo

Steel 3 at 175bar is 525ltrs.

Using my method you have 2525ltrs of gas to get to 21m and using yours you have 2357ltrs of gas.

If getting from 100 to 80m in 1.5mins is an issue then drop the 10ltr to 16/50 from 18/45. But droping it to 10/70 diluient levels will add so much time to deco I wonder if its workable. If we are on a return to shot dive Id run 14% and stay as shalow as possable on the return.

ATB

Mark Chase

Dutchy · 28th August 2006, 17:52

Although I'll never reach any depth beyond normoxic depths there's a lot to be learned from this.
I'm sorry I have to read the "an instructor should cover this" sentence over and over again as with any other topic. Instructors are still learning themselves (if they are good instructors) and there's only so much an instructor can tell you in the time he has available. I mean I have read yet another reason for FFM which may help me move towards that path although so far I haven't had any instructor wearing one. It is this type of information that's always welcome and shouldn't be lost as a result of the "if you want such ten follow proper training" paradigm. Keep up the good work!!!

Pierre Farrugia · 28th August 2006, 17:59

Wow never tought that I will have all this response! About bailout my biggest mistake could have been the short bottom time, remember it's a bounce dive. When this dive would be due I would use bigger thanks especially for deep bailout! What I was considering is to have enough bailout and use buddies just in extreme case. For those who do proper bottom times, like 20 - 25min at these depths what bailout you use, in reality not in theory ? (no offence to anyone, just wanted to know who does this dives are willing to carry, sea dives not caves!)

Richard Lundgren · 28th August 2006, 18:00

Assume a situation forcing a bailout on OC.

Assuming 15min @ 100m the ascent from the bottom to the 21m stop takes something like 30 minutes depending on how aggressive you cut your tables and how well you can follow the profile.

Assuming a SCR of 20l/min (again, assuming that you can stay pretty cool) and that the average consumption depth of the ascent is about 50 m

The minimum bailout would end up as follows: 30 min x 6ATA x 20SCR = 3600 liter. This would indicate that two ALU 80ies are needed only to cover the ascent from 100m to 21 meter. Still the diver would need bailout for the remaining 25 minutes of decompression between 21m and 9m, the 30 min of oxygen decompression @ 6m and at last but no to be ignored gas reserve to be used on the bottom (to fix problems, reality check, return to exit/up line). Loads of gas needed but still only gas for one diver.

Does this makes sense or am I the only one afraid of the dark not trusting mr Murphy

Pierre Farrugia · 28th August 2006, 18:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Although I'll never reach any depth beyond normoxic depths there's a lot to be learned from this.
I'm sorry I have to read the "an instructor should cover this" sentence over and over again as with any other topic. Instructors are still learning themselves (if they are good instructors) and there's only so much an instructor can tell you in the time he has available. I mean I have read yet another reason for FFM which may help me move towards that path although so far I haven't had any instructor wearing one. It is this type of information that's always welcome and shouldn't be lost as a result of the "if you want such ten follow proper training" paradigm. Keep up the good work!!!

Cannot agree more with you! Also here you find divers that have done extreem dives and in different locations, depths, viz and current! As always when you read something on the net and have enough knowledge, then you can judge who is saying what. Also being on the forum from when it started, one can trust certain indivituals that I have known here. I will not mention names of who I trust here, being afraid to forget somone but my green should have showed this to the individuals! When I did my Mod 1, in my course many things were missing and forum users from here helped me out and pointed me in the right direction.

Digger · 28th August 2006, 18:10

Richard,

That's pretty much the conclusion we came to when we did a similar dive. You either need to carry more than 2 tanks each or you're on team bailout. We chose team bailout between us as we are comfortable doing this - remembering losing a buddy is a major failure in this situation and therefore the dive is immediately aborted.

Once on the ascent it's not a problem to use your buddies gas.

Something I have started doing is putting a long hose on my deep bailout if someone else needs it - if swimming along a wreck or out of a cave they can lead out doing this, and no need to juggle tanks about (which I really really don't like as an idea, so many people end up dropping them or it wastes time, niether of which is going to keep you alive!)

All that my 2c, still working out what I want on deeper dives to be honest, but getting there at the mo.

Digs.

28th August 2006, 14:09	#101 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: 100m dive bailout Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Maybe you can find another way to amuse yourself instead of wasting peoples time here. Obviously your not here to learn or share - just to amuse yourself. Let me count how many posts before you realized that, Mike... You have way more patience than most... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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28th August 2006, 14:55	#102 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: 100m dive bailout Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Bearing in mind that a 10ltr blown to 250 bar at 100m using your 70/80/90RMv figures would last a grand total of 2.84 mins dont you think this is all bollocks. No I dont for all the reasons Ive already given. With a full offboard AL80 you have 4 times longer time to sort yourself out than you will with your used 3L. But hey whatever rocks your boat __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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28th August 2006, 15:55	#103 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: 100m dive bailout I think we should also be aware that most "i am in deep sh*t" scenarios are not as bad as they seem once you have the 2-3 minutes to sort things out. So even if the bailout might not bring you aaaallll the way up, it gives you plenty of time to check-recheck, think about other straetgies etc. Most OOG situations are not really OOG. With the first prototypes of RB80 a stone was pinched between the counterlung and the case. (I know, if you think what chances are need to do this on purpose......Geeeezz). So suddenly the unit behaves strange. What do you do ? Bailout and check and ask you buddy to check. Afterwards you realize that you can continue, you are just wasting more gas. If you do not have sufficent bailut you are immeditalty in a "hurry-mode", maybe leading to panic ? (I know, that we are all cool dudes ) Maybe NOT having bailout contributes to heart-attacks ????? Too me bailout is simply the key to have the time to act and react and therefore a key to survival, but like DrMike said: Whatever one wants to do... By the way: Anyone knows how much bailout they had on the Plura-dive ? Michael
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28th August 2006, 16:08	#104 (permalink)
Richard Lundgren New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 52	Re: 100m dive bailout Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us) By the way: Anyone knows how much bailout they had on the Plura-dive ? Michael Hi Micha I have some information regarding this but I prefer to wait until the official report comes out. The rescue team have located the diver and will attempt the recovery today or tomorrow. This accident, among others, was one of the reasons why I felt like I had to get a better understanding on how divers estimate their need of bailout gas. Richard
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28th August 2006, 17:34	#105 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: 100m dive bailout Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) No I dont for all the reasons Ive already given. With a full offboard AL80 you have 4 times longer time to sort yourself out than you will with your used 3L. But hey whatever rocks your boat Ali 80 at standard fill presures is 205 bar 2357.50ltrs of gas Steel 10 at 235 is 2350.oo Steel 3 at 175bar is 525ltrs. Using my method you have 2525ltrs of gas to get to 21m and using yours you have 2357ltrs of gas. If getting from 100 to 80m in 1.5mins is an issue then drop the 10ltr to 16/50 from 18/45. But droping it to 10/70 diluient levels will add so much time to deco I wonder if its workable. If we are on a return to shot dive Id run 14% and stay as shalow as possable on the return. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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28th August 2006, 17:52	#106 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 730	Re: 100m dive bailout Although I'll never reach any depth beyond normoxic depths there's a lot to be learned from this. I'm sorry I have to read the "an instructor should cover this" sentence over and over again as with any other topic. Instructors are still learning themselves (if they are good instructors) and there's only so much an instructor can tell you in the time he has available. I mean I have read yet another reason for FFM which may help me move towards that path although so far I haven't had any instructor wearing one. It is this type of information that's always welcome and shouldn't be lost as a result of the "if you want such ten follow proper training" paradigm. Keep up the good work!!! __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
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28th August 2006, 17:59	#107 (permalink)
Pierre Farrugia Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Malta Posts: 636	Re: 100m dive bailout Wow never tought that I will have all this response! About bailout my biggest mistake could have been the short bottom time, remember it's a bounce dive. When this dive would be due I would use bigger thanks especially for deep bailout! What I was considering is to have enough bailout and use buddies just in extreme case. For those who do proper bottom times, like 20 - 25min at these depths what bailout you use, in reality not in theory ? (no offence to anyone, just wanted to know who does this dives are willing to carry, sea dives not caves!) __________________ Pierre Farrugia My wife told me " If you don't quit diving I'm going to leave you" My reply " God, I'll miss you" www.atlam.org www.divemed.com
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28th August 2006, 18:00	#108 (permalink)
Richard Lundgren New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 52	Re: 100m dive bailout Assume a situation forcing a bailout on OC. Assuming 15min @ 100m the ascent from the bottom to the 21m stop takes something like 30 minutes depending on how aggressive you cut your tables and how well you can follow the profile. Assuming a SCR of 20l/min (again, assuming that you can stay pretty cool) and that the average consumption depth of the ascent is about 50 m The minimum bailout would end up as follows: 30 min x 6ATA x 20SCR = 3600 liter. This would indicate that two ALU 80ies are needed only to cover the ascent from 100m to 21 meter. Still the diver would need bailout for the remaining 25 minutes of decompression between 21m and 9m, the 30 min of oxygen decompression @ 6m and at last but no to be ignored gas reserve to be used on the bottom (to fix problems, reality check, return to exit/up line). Loads of gas needed but still only gas for one diver. Does this makes sense or am I the only one afraid of the dark not trusting mr Murphy Last edited by Richard Lundgren : 28th August 2006 at 18:05.
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28th August 2006, 18:07	#109 (permalink)
Pierre Farrugia Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Malta Posts: 636	Re: 100m dive bailout Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Although I'll never reach any depth beyond normoxic depths there's a lot to be learned from this. I'm sorry I have to read the "an instructor should cover this" sentence over and over again as with any other topic. Instructors are still learning themselves (if they are good instructors) and there's only so much an instructor can tell you in the time he has available. I mean I have read yet another reason for FFM which may help me move towards that path although so far I haven't had any instructor wearing one. It is this type of information that's always welcome and shouldn't be lost as a result of the "if you want such ten follow proper training" paradigm. Keep up the good work!!! Cannot agree more with you! Also here you find divers that have done extreem dives and in different locations, depths, viz and current! As always when you read something on the net and have enough knowledge, then you can judge who is saying what. Also being on the forum from when it started, one can trust certain indivituals that I have known here. I will not mention names of who I trust here, being afraid to forget somone but my green should have showed this to the individuals! When I did my Mod 1, in my course many things were missing and forum users from here helped me out and pointed me in the right direction. __________________ Pierre Farrugia My wife told me " If you don't quit diving I'm going to leave you" My reply " God, I'll miss you" www.atlam.org www.divemed.com
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28th August 2006, 18:10	#110 (permalink)
Digger Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 206	Re: 100m dive bailout Richard, That's pretty much the conclusion we came to when we did a similar dive. You either need to carry more than 2 tanks each or you're on team bailout. We chose team bailout between us as we are comfortable doing this - remembering losing a buddy is a major failure in this situation and therefore the dive is immediately aborted. Once on the ascent it's not a problem to use your buddies gas. Something I have started doing is putting a long hose on my deep bailout if someone else needs it - if swimming along a wreck or out of a cave they can lead out doing this, and no need to juggle tanks about (which I really really don't like as an idea, so many people end up dropping them or it wastes time, niether of which is going to keep you alive!) All that my 2c, still working out what I want on deeper dives to be honest, but getting there at the mo. Digs.
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