Which eCCR is most field servicable?

**Gill Envy** · 6th July 2006, 00:25

It has become abundantly clear with this last trip to canada having been a real let down due to my wife's solenoid failure, that a major consideration for what rebreather to purchase is how field servicable a given unit is. AP will void all warrenties if the unit is so much as touched by a non-authorized technician, for which it seems there are a precious few on the planet.

It was particularly frustrating that all the while this week, just a relatively short distance from where we were staying, we had access to a brand new solenoid, but were prevented from even swapping it out to see if that would solve the issue. I can understand that a company cannot vouch for the service of someone they don't even know, but i'm curious, how do other rebreather manufacturers deal with the fact that by their very nature, rebreathers are taken on expeditions to far away places that necesitate a degree of user field servicing.

I'm not interested in starting an AP bashing session, so please limit comments to how other brands deal with this inevitability. I'm curious about how other rebreathers are designed with this in mind (for instance, make it easy to swap out a part like the solenoid), and whether their policies are more in line with the inevitable reality that things are bound to go wrong sooner or later at very inconvenient times where large investements of time and money are at stake. Or is this just an across the board limitation with all rebreathers under warrenty?

It used to be that we'd just bring extras of a few things, like regulators, first stages and such, but with the added complexity of the electronics of an eCCR, i'm curious also, how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive?

Chris · 6th July 2006, 01:26

Well I guess that’s one good thing about the PRISM, it is just so simple to work on and fix yourself. Anything breaks you just pull out the old DP190 and glue it back together

:

The whole warranty thing is a bit of a hoax "well for me anyway". If I had payed so many thousands for a dive trip and my unit went tits up and some guy round the corner had a part that would fix it, I would not hesitate to do what was needed to get my unit back in the water, nice thing about diving a simple minimal ECCR.

From what I read on Rebreather World and mates whose breathers have been sick.... It seems most of the time, if a unit breaks it takes the manufacturer so damn long to repair it and get your precious back, that it is most likley out of warranty when you finally do see it again

Cheers
Chriso

webhead · 6th July 2006, 01:38

Very interesting question. I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries.

So to prevent a ruined trip, the current solution is to bring spares. But when a spare CCR head costs a few thousand dollars, that's not going to work for everyone.... or is that anyone. Time to teach that significant other to dive a CCR and buy a 2nd unit. Whichever, what a design concept for the makers - modular head so you can swap out controllers, solenoid, etc. Are the Fischer connectors up to the task? Or is the answer to add a 3rd controller - one fails, you have 2 controllers to start the dive. This is based on recommendations not to dive a CCR if there is a computer failure.

Underwaterbear · 6th July 2006, 02:29

Quote:

I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries.

SMI were more than accomodating when I needed to strip my solenoid beside the training pool.

Surely this is going to be all about communication on a case by case basis.

The real issue is as Chris says (and was the point of the topic) is the unit you have simple enough so that it can be stripped and repaired in the field? This will naturally depend on what the failure entails.

Cheers

silent running · 6th July 2006, 03:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris)

Well I guess that’s one good thing about the PRISM, it is just so simple to work on and fix yourself. Anything breaks you just pull out the old DP190 and glue it back together: D Cheers
Chriso

Hi Gillenvy, the Prism is definietly the most simple ECCR out there and this does make things more easy to fix, as there's less to go wrong with in the first place. This is a big advantage for me as somebody who does most of his dives far away from a Fed Ex location. The main drawback is that there's no way to change the electronic SP underwater as there's no handset/controller, only an on/off switch. The electronics only hold the SP and diagnosing trouble undewater is done with HUD alarms and the 2dry. It's a trade off I'm happy to make after seeing so many problems with other ECCR controllers. I've not missed a dive yet, near to 400hrs.
I too had a solenoid failure-corrosion @ 300+hrs possibly from saltwater in O2 or the fill whip. But I was able to continue to dive the unit for the rest of the trip with the power off, using the 2dry for my PO2 monitor, which is passive and driven directly off the sensors themselves. It really wasn't that big of a deal as we spent most of our training flying the thing manually, so I was used to it.
The Prism solenoid is outside of the loop, so it's a bit more difficult to swap, but I'm told that it is replaceable in the field. But then again, I don't really need it to dive the unit. Thus far I've had no problems that I could not solve with a new o-ring, epoxy or aquaseal.

Other than the handsets/head electronics, which are the most expensive and complicted part of an ECCR, the solenoid is probably the most complicated thing that can fail. And I think it's reasonable to expect that it should be easy to swap out. For me, this is where I would draw the line-everything other than the hand sets/head electronics should be replaceable or easy to fix, without soldering. Traveling with extra heads/handsets seems a little much to ask, cost wise. Then you might as well bring 2 units. -Andy

webhead · 6th July 2006, 03:29

Not trying to be antagonistic....

The point is, an eCCR has a solenoid. What manufacturer is going to support any user replacing it in the field, warranty aside?

And the question (and topic of this thread) is "how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive?" If you can't answer the question on field replaceable parts above then you're answer is to bring 2 heads. If you can answer the 1st question, please share. I think that the unit and manufacturer that can be field serviced by the owner deserves to be recognized. I don't think there is one and would suggest that future designs consider this useful "feature".

MHD · 6th July 2006, 03:47

I seem to remember a mate failing a soleniod on his meg, getting a new one in the mail from ISC and changing it out himself. This was before the days of a meg rep in Australia, bu they certianly seemed to have no issue with user servicability. Unit was 2nd hand so warranty wasn't really an issue. But ISC company seemed to have no problem with the concept of supplying parts back then.

might be just my homebilder /Kiss background. But I wouldn't buy any unit that wouldn't support there product in the field with spares.

And don't go on about it being critical life support equipment, so are the brakes in my car, but every auto retailer /OEM in the world will happily sell me the parts to fix them myself.

Matthew

fubari · 6th July 2006, 04:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

I'm curious about how other rebreathers are designed with this in mind (for instance, make it easy to swap out a part like the solenoid)

Voiding the warranty? Ouch! On a new evolution, that would be a painful choice to make. I think Chris had a very good point about "warranty hoax". I know it isn't really a "hoax" as in the vendors are sincerely doing their best, but still... the opportunity coast of returning dive gear for servicing is really high (the clock is ticking on a VR3 upgrade as
I write this; I'm still optimistic I'll get some use out of it this season).

Anyway, I ended up getting an Inspiration because of the ready availability of replacement parts, but! If only I had bothered to look at just how many "replaceable-parts" there were! Not that I've seen anything better on the market - they all seem to be "intricate".

As for field maintenance...
The kiss-crowd probably has the right idea. The inspiration (and I suspect evolution) were just not designed for field work.

I've read good things about the Ouroboros in this regard: now that some Ouroboroses (Ouroborii?) are out in the field, any comments on what they're like to work on? (Do they even need field work?)

In the meantime, I'll vote for Inspiration + Hammerhead because a few dives ago, I had to get into my stock Inspiration's head and get to the cells. And what a contraption a stock inspiration head is.

By comparison, the hammerhead's cell-connector wiring harness is a work of art. I'll be happy when I get switched over to my hammerhead for that reason alone. After that, I see keeping the original head/handsets in my save-a-dive kit as a bonus (downside - I'll still need to travel with AP's cell-head spanner).

Inspirations (and I suspect Evolutions) require a crazy number of custom tools: 3 kinds of spanners, and that odd-sized 13mm hex key (Speaking of which, does anybody know where to get a 13mm plastic hex key? TSA nearly kept mine last time I tried to take it through an airport, because "It is a heavy blunt object that is almost over 7 inches in length." I know I could take a hack saw to it, but I'd like to shave a little more weight, and for snugging up the inside-the-bag injector mounts, well, it doesn't take much torque).
Anyway, about the spanners... it isn't that I mind having extra tools... what I mind is needing to have flimsy plastic tools that, if I happen to break, are impossible to replace except via mail-order.

Quote:

It used to be that we'd just bring extras of a few things, like regulators, first stages and such, but with the added complexity of the electronics of an eCCR, i'm curious also, how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive?

For remote trips, I'll be bringing an extra o2 first stage, spg, head (classic electronics), and hopefully two of everything "droppable" (nuts, bolts, orings, latches). I still still need to figure out some way to manage replacement hoses (hp, lp, & loop). A good suggestion I received (from Kevin "the dude") was adding a small butane soldering iron to my kit.

All - I'm looking forward to stories about spares you' re glad you took on your trips, as well was the things you (eventually) regretted not taking.
John G.

Underwaterbear · 6th July 2006, 05:03

Quote:

Not trying to be antagonistic....

The point is, an eCCR has a solenoid. What manufacturer is going to support any user replacing it in the field, warranty aside?

It seems to me that we have answered this question; Not APV apparently.

Other than that I guess I don't really understand why you're asking this. I assume it's a rhetorical question since you've just been given at least one first hand example of a manufacturer phoning through the instructions for servicing the solenoid. I would be surprised if ISC would not do the same in the same circumstances...actually I would be dissapointed if APV would not do the same if it were a repair that could be performed with some certainty of the outcome.

If field reliability is more crucial than this - take spares and or be prepared to dive OC.

RonMicjan · 6th July 2006, 05:16

ISC provides a course for the end user where you build your own rig under supervision, this allows you to service your own rig (just not someone elses, this requires the technicians course).

not sure if this applies in the UK, but the Moss magnason warranty act provides that user servicing(or anyones for that matter) can only void a warranty if what you have done specifically ruins something, and then only that part is considered voided.

I would personally just dig in, but Im that kind of guy.

6th July 2006, 00:25	#1 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,248	Which eCCR is most field servicable? It has become abundantly clear with this last trip to canada having been a real let down due to my wife's solenoid failure, that a major consideration for what rebreather to purchase is how field servicable a given unit is. AP will void all warrenties if the unit is so much as touched by a non-authorized technician, for which it seems there are a precious few on the planet. It was particularly frustrating that all the while this week, just a relatively short distance from where we were staying, we had access to a brand new solenoid, but were prevented from even swapping it out to see if that would solve the issue. I can understand that a company cannot vouch for the service of someone they don't even know, but i'm curious, how do other rebreather manufacturers deal with the fact that by their very nature, rebreathers are taken on expeditions to far away places that necesitate a degree of user field servicing. I'm not interested in starting an AP bashing session, so please limit comments to how other brands deal with this inevitability. I'm curious about how other rebreathers are designed with this in mind (for instance, make it easy to swap out a part like the solenoid), and whether their policies are more in line with the inevitable reality that things are bound to go wrong sooner or later at very inconvenient times where large investements of time and money are at stake. Or is this just an across the board limitation with all rebreathers under warrenty? It used to be that we'd just bring extras of a few things, like regulators, first stages and such, but with the added complexity of the electronics of an eCCR, i'm curious also, how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 6th July 2006 at 00:30.
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6th July 2006, 01:26	#2 (permalink)
Chris Go Nude Or Go Home Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 601	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Well I guess that’s one good thing about the PRISM, it is just so simple to work on and fix yourself. Anything breaks you just pull out the old DP190 and glue it back together: The whole warranty thing is a bit of a hoax "well for me anyway". If I had payed so many thousands for a dive trip and my unit went tits up and some guy round the corner had a part that would fix it, I would not hesitate to do what was needed to get my unit back in the water, nice thing about diving a simple minimal ECCR. From what I read on Rebreather World and mates whose breathers have been sick.... It seems most of the time, if a unit breaks it takes the manufacturer so damn long to repair it and get your precious back, that it is most likley out of warranty when you finally do see it again Cheers Chriso __________________ Megalodon Sorb and Sensors whilst in Australia www.divetub.com.au Diving & Photography @ www.uwphotog.com Last edited by Chris : 6th July 2006 at 02:39.
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6th July 2006, 01:38	#3 (permalink)
webhead Earning the green stuff.. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: East central Florida Posts: 283	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Very interesting question. I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries. So to prevent a ruined trip, the current solution is to bring spares. But when a spare CCR head costs a few thousand dollars, that's not going to work for everyone.... or is that anyone. Time to teach that significant other to dive a CCR and buy a 2nd unit. Whichever, what a design concept for the makers - modular head so you can swap out controllers, solenoid, etc. Are the Fischer connectors up to the task? Or is the answer to add a 3rd controller - one fails, you have 2 controllers to start the dive. This is based on recommendations not to dive a CCR if there is a computer failure. __________________ "These are not the droids you are looking for.... move along" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
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6th July 2006, 02:29	#4 (permalink)
Underwaterbear A Prismer in Megland Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 167	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries. SMI were more than accomodating when I needed to strip my solenoid beside the training pool. Surely this is going to be all about communication on a case by case basis. The real issue is as Chris says (and was the point of the topic) is the unit you have simple enough so that it can be stripped and repaired in the field? This will naturally depend on what the failure entails. Cheers
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6th July 2006, 03:24	#5 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,771	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris) Well I guess that’s one good thing about the PRISM, it is just so simple to work on and fix yourself. Anything breaks you just pull out the old DP190 and glue it back together: D Cheers Chriso Hi Gillenvy, the Prism is definietly the most simple ECCR out there and this does make things more easy to fix, as there's less to go wrong with in the first place. This is a big advantage for me as somebody who does most of his dives far away from a Fed Ex location. The main drawback is that there's no way to change the electronic SP underwater as there's no handset/controller, only an on/off switch. The electronics only hold the SP and diagnosing trouble undewater is done with HUD alarms and the 2dry. It's a trade off I'm happy to make after seeing so many problems with other ECCR controllers. I've not missed a dive yet, near to 400hrs. I too had a solenoid failure-corrosion @ 300+hrs possibly from saltwater in O2 or the fill whip. But I was able to continue to dive the unit for the rest of the trip with the power off, using the 2dry for my PO2 monitor, which is passive and driven directly off the sensors themselves. It really wasn't that big of a deal as we spent most of our training flying the thing manually, so I was used to it. The Prism solenoid is outside of the loop, so it's a bit more difficult to swap, but I'm told that it is replaceable in the field. But then again, I don't really need it to dive the unit. Thus far I've had no problems that I could not solve with a new o-ring, epoxy or aquaseal. Other than the handsets/head electronics, which are the most expensive and complicted part of an ECCR, the solenoid is probably the most complicated thing that can fail. And I think it's reasonable to expect that it should be easy to swap out. For me, this is where I would draw the line-everything other than the hand sets/head electronics should be replaceable or easy to fix, without soldering. Traveling with extra heads/handsets seems a little much to ask, cost wise. Then you might as well bring 2 units. -Andy Last edited by silent running : 6th July 2006 at 03:27.
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6th July 2006, 03:29	#6 (permalink)
webhead Earning the green stuff.. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: East central Florida Posts: 283	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Not trying to be antagonistic.... The point is, an eCCR has a solenoid. What manufacturer is going to support any user replacing it in the field, warranty aside? And the question (and topic of this thread) is "how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive?" If you can't answer the question on field replaceable parts above then you're answer is to bring 2 heads. If you can answer the 1st question, please share. I think that the unit and manufacturer that can be field serviced by the owner deserves to be recognized. I don't think there is one and would suggest that future designs consider this useful "feature". __________________ "These are not the droids you are looking for.... move along" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
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6th July 2006, 03:47	#7 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? I seem to remember a mate failing a soleniod on his meg, getting a new one in the mail from ISC and changing it out himself. This was before the days of a meg rep in Australia, bu they certianly seemed to have no issue with user servicability. Unit was 2nd hand so warranty wasn't really an issue. But ISC company seemed to have no problem with the concept of supplying parts back then. might be just my homebilder /Kiss background. But I wouldn't buy any unit that wouldn't support there product in the field with spares. And don't go on about it being critical life support equipment, so are the brakes in my car, but every auto retailer /OEM in the world will happily sell me the parts to fix them myself. Matthew Last edited by MHD : 6th July 2006 at 03:51.
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6th July 2006, 04:59	#8 (permalink)
fubari New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 112	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) I'm curious about how other rebreathers are designed with this in mind (for instance, make it easy to swap out a part like the solenoid) Voiding the warranty? Ouch! On a new evolution, that would be a painful choice to make. I think Chris had a very good point about "warranty hoax". I know it isn't really a "hoax" as in the vendors are sincerely doing their best, but still... the opportunity coast of returning dive gear for servicing is really high (the clock is ticking on a VR3 upgrade as I write this; I'm still optimistic I'll get some use out of it this season). Anyway, I ended up getting an Inspiration because of the ready availability of replacement parts, but! If only I had bothered to look at just how many "replaceable-parts" there were! Not that I've seen anything better on the market - they all seem to be "intricate". As for field maintenance... The kiss-crowd probably has the right idea. The inspiration (and I suspect evolution) were just not designed for field work. I've read good things about the Ouroboros in this regard: now that some Ouroboroses (Ouroborii?) are out in the field, any comments on what they're like to work on? (Do they even need field work?) In the meantime, I'll vote for Inspiration + Hammerhead because a few dives ago, I had to get into my stock Inspiration's head and get to the cells. And what a *contraption* a stock inspiration head is. By comparison, the hammerhead's cell-connector wiring harness is a work of art. I'll be happy when I get switched over to my hammerhead for that reason alone. After that, I see keeping the original head/handsets in my save-a-dive kit as a bonus (downside - I'll still need to travel with AP's cell-head spanner). Inspirations (and I suspect Evolutions) require a crazy number of custom tools: 3 kinds of spanners, and that odd-sized 13mm hex key (Speaking of which, does anybody know where to get a 13mm plastic hex key? TSA nearly kept mine last time I tried to take it through an airport, because "It is a heavy blunt object that is almost over 7 inches in length." I know I could take a hack saw to it, but I'd like to shave a little more weight, and for snugging up the inside-the-bag injector mounts, well, it doesn't take much torque). Anyway, about the spanners... it isn't that I mind having extra tools... what I mind is needing to have flimsy plastic tools that, if I happen to break, are impossible to replace except via mail-order. Quote: It used to be that we'd just bring extras of a few things, like regulators, first stages and such, but with the added complexity of the electronics of an eCCR, i'm curious also, how do you prepare for trips where you have a lot invested in being able to dive? For remote trips, I'll be bringing an extra o2 first stage, spg, head (classic electronics), and hopefully two of everything "droppable" (nuts, bolts, orings, latches). I still still need to figure out some way to manage replacement hoses (hp, lp, & loop). A good suggestion I received (from Kevin "the dude") was adding a small butane soldering iron to my kit. All - I'm looking forward to stories about spares you' re glad you took on your trips, as well was the things you (eventually) regretted not taking. John G.
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6th July 2006, 05:03	#9 (permalink)
Underwaterbear A Prismer in Megland Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 167	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: Not trying to be antagonistic.... The point is, an eCCR has a solenoid. What manufacturer is going to support any user replacing it in the field, warranty aside? It seems to me that we have answered this question; Not APV apparently. Other than that I guess I don't really understand why you're asking this. I assume it's a rhetorical question since you've just been given at least one first hand example of a manufacturer phoning through the instructions for servicing the solenoid. I would be surprised if ISC would not do the same in the same circumstances...actually I would be dissapointed if APV would not do the same if it were a repair that could be performed with some certainty of the outcome. If field reliability is more crucial than this - take spares and or be prepared to dive OC.
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6th July 2006, 05:16	#10 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,082	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? ISC provides a course for the end user where you build your own rig under supervision, this allows you to service your own rig (just not someone elses, this requires the technicians course). not sure if this applies in the UK, but the Moss magnason warranty act provides that user servicing(or anyones for that matter) can only void a warranty if what you have done specifically ruins something, and then only that part is considered voided. I would personally just dig in, but Im that kind of guy. __________________ Ron "Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.
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